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  #681  
Old 03-05-2021, 04:17 AM
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There is an analysis on The Guardian about the recent bullying allegation and Palace intervention. It had contributions from Victoria Murphy, Peter Hunt (former BBC royal correspondent) and Omid Scobie. Surprisingly, I found this article balanced, reasonable and well-thought out, despite The Guardian's republican stance. The full article is not behind a paywall this time

‘Open hostility’: an extraordinary episode in the Sussexes’ royal drama
Analysis: after Buckingham Palace’s remarkable intervention, the war of words is unlikely to die down
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...es-royal-drama
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  #682  
Old 03-05-2021, 04:34 AM
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Thanks for that article, interesting to see a more cool-headed view.

But while reading it I wonder why this 'American work ethic' fable is so persistent (see quote by Scobie)? In reality there is not much difference between the US and the UK. 1757 hours vs 1670 hours per year in the US and the UK respectively. Hardly a big difference.

https://ourworldindata.org/working-hours

This kind of theme may be a popular narrative in/about the US but the data does not confirm these kind of assumptions. Of course the theme of 'young naive & high energy American girl tells ignorant (foreign) hotshots what to do and saves the day' is a popular genre in many series (I have been unfortunate enough to sit through one episode of that ghastly Emily in Paris Netflix series) but in reality I am not conviced this happens very often.

To portray employees in the palace, coming from all kinds of carreers, as workshy may also be feeding a certain narrative but considering previous and next carreers of many of these (young-)professionals I doubt that they will just take on a palace-job to take things easy. But why see them as individuals when the press can abuse their existance by portraying them as a collective of evil grey men hellbent on ruining the innocent hero or heroine of whatever telenovela a media outlet is trying to sell to its readers and viewers.

Fortunately neither the duke nor the duchess has said anything of the sort as I am sure they are well aware of their (and his family's) priviledged position vis à vis the people who work for them. But it is surprising to see -of all newspapers- the Guardian writing this down as if it was a fact of life, which it isn't.
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  #683  
Old 03-05-2021, 04:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
Thanks for that article, interesting to see a more cool-headed view.

But while reading it I winder why this 'American work ethic' fable is so persistent (see quote by Scobie)? In reality there is not much difference between the US and the UK. 1757 hours vs 1670 hours per year in the US and the UK respectively. Hardly a big difference.

https://ourworldindata.org/working-hours

This kind of theme may be a popular narrative in/about the US but the data does not confirm these kind of assumptions. Of course the theme of 'young naive & high energy American girl tells ignorant (foreign) hotshots what to do and saves the day' is a popular genre in many series (I have been unfortunate enough to sit through one episode of that ghastly Emily in Paris Netflix series) but in reality I am not conviced this happens very often.

To portray employees in the palace, coming from all kinds of carreers, as workshy may also be feeding a certain narrative but considering previous and next carreers of many of these employees I doubt that they will just take on a palace-job to take things easy.
It really depends on what type of job you do.
if you're in high-tech or a good paying job, things are different than in a low wage job.
also 100 hours difference can be alot that's an extra 4 days of vacation.
  #684  
Old 03-05-2021, 05:13 AM
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Having worked at an American and UK firm I really do not see the difference, but I agree it might have to be the type of job that you do.


Having said that I would like to point out the office the perputated the reasons for the high rate of movement at the Sussex office was headed by the same person who wrote the email about the bulling.
The mantra we got from Kensington Palace was that it was Meghan's American and Hollywood ways - her get up and go attitude, the 3 AM emails and the demand for excellence that was the problem then. All good qualities that the staff simply couldn't hack but then privately he is writing emails about bullying and then resigning himself. This is why I really dislike spin.
  #685  
Old 03-05-2021, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Alison H View Post
When I was at school, a really nasty boy used to bully me and a lot of other kids. I met this guy's dad once, and, when he found out which school I went to, he started going on about how I must fancy his son because he was the most lovely, wonderful boy and all the girls in the school must be after him. Yeah, right! People's friends and relatives aren't usually the best ones to ask about this sort of thing.

I'm unsure why anyone seems to think that how people voted in a referendum on leaving the EU in June 2016 is relevant to how people feel about Harry and Meghan in February 2021. What next, people's opinion of Harry and Meghan depends on which football team they support, or what their favourite food is, or what music they like? It's irrelevant, and I wish people, whether it's pollsters or anyone else, would stop trying to divide British society like this. And I'm not sure why the Telegraph is trying to involve the Prime Minister in this.


The latest "story" is that Meghan kept accepting free clothes from designer labels whilst she and Prince Harry were going out, despite being advised that it wasn't appropriate for her to do that, and that she only stopped when Prince Charles agreed to pay for her clothes. Everyone and their dog is going to have some minor story to tell, and, until someone puts an end to this feud between Harry and Meghan and the press, they're going to keep coming. It's not helping anyone: it's just embarrassing. And this interview is only going to make it much, much worse.
Umm, I don't think the problem is with the Sussexes and the press. They just seem to be recycling or repeating "leaks" from the palaces.

I don't believe the trash about freebies for two reasons:
1. It was probably the first heads-up given to Meghan by Samantha Cohen, and
2. With as toxic an environment as KP when she arrived that little titbit would have been worth it's weight in gold. Oh make that three:
3. Who...in CH doing Charles personal accounts that would be blabbing to the media about clothes. Prince Charles personally pays for his family's expenses which includes all of their wardrobes from his own to Prince Louis.

Things have changed now obviously but add that breach of privacy to the leaking of the supposed provenance of the earrings Meghan wore on an official tour. I say supposed provenance because last I heard MBS was the heir apparent representing his father, King Salmond Abdulaziz Al Saud.

I am sure the Foreign Office was thrilled to read that little titbit splashed across the country's papers both real and online.
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  #686  
Old 03-05-2021, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Claire View Post
Having worked at an American and UK firm I really do not see the difference, but I agree miht have to be the type of job that you do.


Having sad that I would like to point out the office the perputated the reasons for the high rate of movement at the Sussex office was headed by the same person who wrote the email about the bulling.
The mantra we got from Kensington Palace was that it was Meghan's American and Hollywood ways - her get up and go attitude, the 3 AM emails and the demand for excellence that was the problem then. All good qualities that the staff simply couldn't hack but then privately he is writing emails about bullying and then resigning himself. This is why I really dislike spin.
I agree with you that it really depends on the job you do, industry you are in and the company's work environment (in terms values or how you fit in). Personality does come into play as well.

For example, if you are an improviser, you might find a job or company that has rigid schedules, difficult and even frustrating. In contrast, those who are planners would find it easier. The same could be said for someone who is a free-spirit and opinionated finding a workplace with rigorous protocol, very restrictive.
  #687  
Old 03-05-2021, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
Thanks for that article, interesting to see a more cool-headed view.

But while reading it I winder why this 'American work ethic' fable is so persistent (see quote by Scobie)? In reality there is not much difference between the US and the UK. 1757 hours vs 1670 hours per year in the US and the UK respectively. Hardly a big difference.

https://ourworldindata.org/working-hours

This kind of theme may be a popular narrative in/about the US but the data does not confirm these kind of assumptions. Of course the theme of 'young naive & high energy American girl tells ignorant (foreign) hotshots what to do and saves the day' is a popular genre in many series (I have been unfortunate enough to sit through one episode of that ghastly Emily in Paris Netflix series) but in reality I am not conviced this happens very often.

To portray employees in the palace, coming from all kinds of carreers, as workshy may also be feeding a certain narrative but considering previous and next carreers of many of these (young-)professionals I doubt that they will just take on a palace-job to take things easy. But why see them as individuals when the press can abuse their existance by portraying them as a collective of evil grey men hellbent on ruining the innocent hero or heroine of whatever telenovela a media outlet is trying to sell to its readers and viewers.
I think it is a long held myth about American work practices and often likely to be perpetuated by the British themselves for whatever reason. It is nonsense. The teams work very hard and are very poorly renumerated for it. And they all have high class careers outside or within the royal circle.

Knauf himself is American although I am not sure about where he grew up.

I think it is fair really that this may give a balanced view. I think it's fair it is looked into.
  #688  
Old 03-05-2021, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Claire View Post
All good qualities that the staff simply couldn't hack but then privately he is writing emails about bullying and then resigning himself. This is why I really dislike spin.
That was his job. Or do you think people should release press statements ranting and raving. He was doing his job. In fact you couldn't fault him. Probs why he is literally William's work husband. He trusts him.
  #689  
Old 03-05-2021, 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by yukari View Post
First article:


Second article is basically 6 paragraphs reiterating the title; that Boris had “full confidence” in Mr Case, but it was a “matter for the Palace”, and there was no place for bullying in Government. (I'm pretty sure I've seen similar article on Mirror).

Third article is listing the key figures at the centre of the allegations, they are:
- Simon Case (briefly worked as director of strategy at GCHQ before working as the Duke of Cambridge's private secretary, now Cabinet Secretary), >>>William seriously has to get him back when he's king<<<

- Melissa Touabti (a French, previously worked for Robbie Williams and his wife Ayda Field before worked as PA for the Duchess of Sussex for six months, after she left she work as a nanny for billionaire Richard Livingstone),

- Sara Latham (a dual British-American citizen, former head of communications for the Sussexes who previously worked for Bill Clinton and Barack Obama, now advises the Queen's private office on special projects),

- Katrina McKeever (former Kensington Palace deputy communications secretary who had a key liaison role with Meghan's family, including her father Thomas Markle. Omid claimed she left on a good note, but Reports of Meghan shouting at one of the Duchess of Cambridge's team allegedly referred to her),

- Amy Pickerill (worked at the Royal Bank of Scotland before became Meghan's assistant, when she left a KP source said she would stay in touch with Meghan),

- Samantha Cohen (The Queen's former private secretary then served as private secretary to the Sussexes before leaving the royal household to work for the charity Cool Earth, and the one who's been noted as "a saint" on The Times article),

- Jason Knauf (an American, former communications secretary to both the Sussexes and the Cambridges, now chief executive of the Royal Foundation, and the man who wrote the email),

- Christian Jones (was chief press officer at the Treasury under George Osborne and Philip Hammond, former communications secretary to the Cambridges, now a partner at private equity group Bridgepoint),

- Female Police Protection Officer (former head of protection for the Sussexes who was tasked with overseeing security during Australia Fiji tour in Oct 2018).

The interesting thing is that, looking at the profiles above , what strikes me is that none of them (a director of strategy at GCHQ _the UK's equivalent to the NSA in the US_ and Principal Private Secretary to the PM ; a former employee at the Royal Bank of Scotland; a chief press secretary at HM's Treasury; a former aide to Bill Clinton and Barack Obama, etc.) fit the image claimed by some posters here of "lazy Brits" who could not handle Meghan's "American work ethic" and "perfectionism".


In fact, it is instructive to compare Meghan's "superior" American CV to Simon Case's for example.
  #690  
Old 03-05-2021, 06:42 AM
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That's a lot of people, even if some of them are only involved indirectly. There are personality clashes in any workplace, and there are people who are not suited to the job or to the culture of that particular place, but, when several people all complain about bullying in the same workplace, it strongly suggests that there's a genuine problem.
  #691  
Old 03-05-2021, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
The interesting thing is that, looking at the profiles above , what strikes me is that none of them (a director of strategy at GCHQ _the UK's equivalent to the NSA in the US_ and Principal Private Secretary to the PM ; a former employee at the Royal Bank of Scotland; a chief press secretary at HM's Treasury; a former aide to Bill Clinton and Barack Obama, etc.) fit the image claimed by some posters here of "lazy Brits" who could not handle Meghan's "American work ethic" and "perfectionism".


In fact, it is instructive to compare Meghan's "superior" American CV to Simon Case's for example.
Thank you for your post it is an excellent summary of the situation.
I do not intend taking sides in the debate but I am a bit fed up of blanket statements that staff in the palace were / are lazy or workshy.
Saying nothing or putting forward valid points are more successful.
  #692  
Old 03-05-2021, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by AC21091968 View Post
I agree with you that it really depends on the job you do, industry you are in and the company's work environment (in terms values or how you fit in). Personality does come into play as well.

For example, if you are an improviser, you might find a job or company that has rigid schedules, difficult and even frustrating. In contrast, those who are planners would find it easier. The same could be said for someone who is a free-spirit and opinionated finding a workplace with rigorous protocol, very restrictive.
Plus to be at the top position of an organisation is not as simple as giving order to your subordinate. I’m not sure Meghan had multiple persons (staff) work for her before she married Harry. Considering she did a side jobs, I don’t think she’s at the level of an actor who has a whole entourage of manager, stylist, helper etc working for her. On set, she was at the “same level” as the make-up artist, fellow actors, and such. So other than culture clash (I’m not talking about work ethic, but the way you communicate), she might haven’t find the “gist” on how to manage people working for her.

There’s a reason why there’s a course on how to be a good manager. Some subordinate might less capable than other, but hovering behind them and directing their every move just because you can’t 100% trust them to do the job just like you want most of the time is just counterproductive, and worse if you do it openly in front of their colleagues. There’s also an art of reprimanding your subordinate, calling them stupid even behind the close door is never a good approach.

I had a very demanding manager and he’s an owl, his brain only starts working after 4 pm so 10 pm call or 2 am email was not unusual (my job was not the kind of Mon-Fri 9 to 5 job, but sort of 4-weeks-24/7-on-and-2-full-weeks-off kind of job), but he’s very popular amongst us. He knew how to manage and to delegate, to give credit when it’s due, and how to communicate when someone made mistake (and to say sorry to us, his subordinate, when he’s the one at fault).

On the Guardian article above
Quote:
And the war of words is unlikely to abate. “This is an institution that is meant to live by the motto ‘never complain, never explain’,” said Scobie. “But it spends its whole time complaining and explaining, and doing even more damage in the process.”
I kind of want to ask him who’s the person he’s been referring to?

Quote:
In the short term, it has been suggested one explanation for the story’s emergence now could be the summary judgment in Meghan’s favour in her privacy and copyright case against Associated Newspapers, a legal victory which prevented a trial in which courtiers would have given evidence. A recent Sunday Times story suggested senior royal sources were “shocked” by the outcome.
I’m with Murphy (or Bland?) here. I doubt the palace and those people related in this bullying debacle know about the content of the interview, especially with the story on how CBS has safe-guard it tightly.

And this narrative of “blame the Cambridge for whatever wrong that happens to the Sussex” is quite interesting. It’s Kate’s fault that the two Duchesses are not besties, it’s William’s fault when Harry made blunder or unhappy. Can I say that it might be an attempt of smearing campaign against the Cambridges?
  #693  
Old 03-05-2021, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
The interesting thing is that, looking at the profiles above , what strikes me is that none of them (a director of strategy at GCHQ _the UK's equivalent to the NSA in the US_ and Principal Private Secretary to the PM ; a former employee at the Royal Bank of Scotland; a chief press secretary at HM's Treasury; a former aide to Bill Clinton and Barack Obama, etc.) fit the image claimed by some posters here of "lazy Brits" who could not handle Meghan's "American work ethic" and "perfectionism".


In fact, it is instructive to compare Meghan's "superior" American CV to Simon Case's for example.
It is mind boggling isn't it?
when you compare these people resumes to Meghan's. I mean it's like the joke are writing themselves.
I am far more impressed by these people, even those in the low levels, because I have no doubt getting a palace position, even a assistant to assistant one, probably requires you to have an impressive resume.



Also I really wish her friends would stop they are doing way too much. This does not paint them in a good light at all. in fact: 'like attracts like', ala Jessica and her bullying, comes to mind and makes me believe that they essentially mean girls pretending to be nice too - these are a group of very privileged individuals who talk about compassion and supporting victims.. but I guess one of their own is alleged?

They need to realize the immense difference in power dynamic between the woman they know as their friend and the people who worked beneath her.
Someone can be super nice to you because you are their equal, their friend, but be a total bully to their subordinate (I can attest to this first hand as a survivor of workplace bullying). one can be smart and cruel, funny and humiliating, one does not contradict the other.
Their experience can be 100% different from someone else with her.

Just don't say anything! that's always the safest.
See the Jussie Smollett and Ellen situations.

And given how Meghan is now talking about the BRF and literally victim shaming the allegation victims these friends should actually be weary that if they ever get her bad side.. they would be next!
  #694  
Old 03-05-2021, 08:19 AM
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I agree with your general assessment of many people behaving differently to subordinates than to 'equals' but I am not quite sure if we can accuse the Duchess of shaming victims at this point. She has not said anything about the matter AFAIK.
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Old 03-05-2021, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
The interesting thing is that, looking at the profiles above , what strikes me is that none of them (a director of strategy at GCHQ _the UK's equivalent to the NSA in the US_ and Principal Private Secretary to the PM ; a former employee at the Royal Bank of Scotland; a chief press secretary at HM's Treasury; a former aide to Bill Clinton and Barack Obama, etc.) fit the image claimed by some posters here of "lazy Brits" who could not handle Meghan's "American work ethic" and "perfectionism".


In fact, it is instructive to compare Meghan's "superior" American CV to Simon Case's for example.
Yes, none of these people just happened to land in their jobs by accident after a lifetime of laziness and low pressure. They’re all accomplished people who were more knowledgeable than Meghan about the new work environment and professional culture she’d married into.

It was Meghan’s job to adapt to her new role and fit into the organization, not the other way around. The BRF wasn’t going to turn itself into an American production company to suit her.

Speaking of cultural differences, how about the one in the American entertainment industry where people are allowed to get away with essentially any sort of bad behaviour once they reach a certain level of success? Bad attitudes, raging drug problems, bullying, harassment, spousal abuse, rape - it’s all good as long as the person remains profitable. The support team around the person in question works night and day to keep them happy and their behaviour out of the press. Not everyone is like that, and Meghan wasn’t successful enough that the worst of this would apply to her - it would have been easy enough to replace her or write her out of Suits - but this was the sea she swam in before she married Harry, her big break.
  #696  
Old 03-05-2021, 08:54 AM
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I think it is a long held myth about American work practices and often likely to be perpetuated by the British themselves for whatever reason. It is nonsense. The teams work very hard and are very poorly renumerated for it. And they all have high class careers outside or within the royal circle.

Knauf himself is American although I am not sure about where he grew up.

I think it is fair really that this may give a balanced view. I think it's fair it is looked into.
Much of the myth is tied in to Americans attitudes about work. It defines who they(we) are much more than in Europe.

An Italian friend described it this way... " Americans live to work. Italians work to live".

He said that taking a few hours off to lunch or nap during the day would not raise eyebrows in Southern Europe especially....but in the US it would be unheard of.

I much, MUCH prefer the European way.
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  #697  
Old 03-05-2021, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
Much of the myth is tied in to Americans attitudes about work. It defines who they(we) are much more than in Europe.

An Italian friend described it this way... " Americans live to work. Italians work to live".

He said that taking a few hours off to lunch or nap during the day would not raise eyebrows in Southern Europe especially....but in the US it would be unheard of.

I much, MUCH prefer the European way.
Well Southern Europe is very different from the North. And the Southern lot do look lazy compared to the northerners but the very real difference in climate slows down life no end.
  #698  
Old 03-05-2021, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post


I agree with your general assessment of many people behaving differently to subordinates than to 'equals' but I am not quite sure if we can accuse the Duchess of shaming victims at this point. She has not said anything about the matter AFAIK.
I agree but one also can't deny that some people will look down at people in higher position than them because they feel they are superior. Like women in a all male space.... or POC positions of power. We have seen incidents all last year where people accused people of things and weaponized parts of themselves only to be discovered it was false.

So yes lets have a true investigation to see what happened.

---

In other news...

The Mail on Sunday has been ordered to post a statement/apology on their front page in the same front size as their articles about the letter. It has to run for a week.

https://twitter.com/mwolferobinson/s...41896614232072
  #699  
Old 03-05-2021, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by poppy7 View Post
That was the liberal view? That was an a appalling view. To dismiss people's allegations of bullying. Meghan is not some baby fignting agai st the msn. If anything g the staff were. That they were grossly misinformed is fine but thatsegment was awful.
You misunderstood my comment. I was giving a general description of the show in response to a comment that was made about it by a previous poster about it. I was not addressing anything about this specific situation. I am appalled by her and Harry's behavior. I am happy the palace is giving the former employees if H&M a voice. Furthermore, I am appalled by Harry and Meghan's behavior I feel they are a couple of whiners who have thrown everything the Queen has done for them back into her face. They have disrespected her and Prince Philip and the entire family. I hope the results of the review of bullying will be published and if it is found that Meghan and Harry bullied their staff, they will be publicly admonished by the palace and their Duke and Duchess titles taken away.
  #700  
Old 03-05-2021, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by duchessrachel View Post
You misunderstood my comment. I was giving a general description of the show in response to a comment that was made about it by a previous poster about it. I was not addressing anything about this specific situation. I am appalled by her and Harry's behavior. I am happy the palace is giving the former employees if H&M a voice. Furthermore, I am appalled by Harry and Meghan's behavior I feel they are a couple of whiners who have thrown everything the Queen has done for them back into her face. They have disrespected her and Prince Philip and the entire family. I hope the results of the review of bullying will be published and if it is found that Meghan and Harry bullied their staff, they will be publicly admonished by the palace and their Duke and Duchess titles taken away.
The palace /queen can't take their ducal titles away..
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