The Duke and Duchess of Sussex and Family, News and Events 1: September-December 2020

[Denville]

That is a sad loss for this year as the poppy sales do benefit the veterans.

Well that's the ;point.. But Im not out much at present. I dont think I've seen anyone wearing one in my locality... because I suppose they're hard to get....

 

[TLLK]

Well actually it's not just not about veterans. The poppy appeal raise funds for ex servicemen & women but Remembrance Sunday is the national act of remembering the dead. Cenotaph means empty tomb & it became a place for the bereaved to mourn since a decision had been made to leave the war dead in Flanders & France. It literally represents the absent dead.

This is understood in Britain. I don't want to come across as rude but maybe some attempt to understand the context here might be useful.

Thank you for taking the time to explain this Durham as there is a difference between Remembrance Sunday in the UK and Veteran's Day in the U.S.

 

[HighGoalHighDreams]

Just my take on it. The veterans are honored living and deceased and the deceased's next of kin would IMO appreciate it and veterans alive today would appreciate their deceased "mates" being honored.

My father lays in one of these cemeteries and I immediately felt a physically ill sensation. I thought of the honor of burying him, the flag, the gun salute, I thought of the solemnity of laying a wreath there in solitude every year, and the thought that any public figure would bring a camera crew onto the grounds of a veteran's cemetery for their own purposes is such an unsettling feeling.

I am honestly floored at the idea that doing so to stave off personal criticism (that people might have "been mean to him" had he not done it) would somehow be a justification.

 

[poppy7]

They just live in some stupid, fantasy, la la world. Harry, unlike other members of his family, actually thinks he is important. He didn't get the 'role' was important. Why on earth would he now lay a wreath at the cenotaph? And then they do a stupid photocall. Behaving like vacuous dolls. Nonsense. Any excuse for some publicity.

 

[Denville]

does teh US have a national act of remebmberance on the May day @TLLK? if you saw any of the UK things this week, it is 100 years since the burial of the Unknown Soldier in Westminster Abbey, where a single body was returned from France to the UK to be buried, as an act of honour and remembrance to those who had died in the Great War and were buried in France and Belgium,,,

 

[Curryong]

Harry didn't bring 'a camera crew' into the cemetery at all. There was one photographer. And if any member of the BRF is respectful of dead service men and women it's Harry. He's worked with vets and service people regularly for over a decade.

Harry laid flowers on the graves of two Commonwealth servicemen. One from Australia, one from Canada.

Harry and Meghan laid flowers picked from their garden at the graves of two Commonwealth soldiers - one from the Riyal Australian Airforce and one from the Royals Canadian Artillery. And Harry laid a wreath. He wrote “To all of those who have served, are are serving. Thank you.” pic.twitter.com/jZ5MYwRR71

— Chris Ship (@chrisshipitv) November 8, 2020
In photos taken by Lee Morgan, the duke and duchess are seen wearing poppies, the commemorative symbol of Remembrance Day, on their lapels.

Harry also wore three medals: his 2002 Queen's Golden Jubilee medal, 2008 Afghanistan Operational Service medal, and 2012 Queen's Diamond Jubilee medal.

 

[AC21091968]

Thank you for taking the time to explain this Durham as there is a difference between Remembrance Sunday in the UK and Veteran's Day in the U.S.

It's also different in Australia and New Zealand as well, where there are ANZAC day (25th April) and Remembrance day (11th November). According to Chris Widenbar from the Australian War Memorial.

"Anzac Day is a day for commemoration, for thanking the veterans and it's also part of our national story. Remembrance Day, on the other hand, is solely about remembrance. It's solely about remembering those 102,800 Australians who have given their lives for us."​

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/remembr...-australia-s-consciousness-says-war-historian

Going back to Harry & Meghan, I think bringing in a photographer gives a wrong optic and perceived as "self-publication". They could have just lay the wreath privately.

 

[poppy7]

My father lays in one of these cemeteries and I immediately felt a physically ill sensation. I thought of the honor of burying him, the flag, the gun salute, I thought of the solemnity of laying a wreath there in solitude every year, and the thought that any public figure would bring a camera crew onto the grounds of a veteran's cemetery for their own purposes is such an unsettling feeling.

I am honestly floored at the idea that doing so to stave off personal criticism (that people might have "been mean to him" had he not done it) would somehow be a justification.

People wouldnt care he didn't do it because people are now forgetting him. Time moves on. No reason to do that. They wanted to leave.

 

[Heavs]

No, it isn't about any individual members of the BRF. It is about the Fallen in two World Wars and more recent conflicts. Which Harry, as an ex service man, who served in combat, has every right to observe and honour. Have any of the courtiers who knocked back his request for a wreath to be laid at the Cenotaph ever seen a shot fired in anger?

Some of them, but it's not even about that.

They have made it all about themselves and not about the fallen with this gesture. "Look at us, with our camera crew (sorry one photographer) being royal, in case you'd forgotten we exist when looking at pictures of the BRF commemorating the most solemn. respected, massively well attended events (usually) in the national psyche!" Complete with leak to the papers earlier in the day.

They're in between a "rock and a hard place" because they don't want to be forgotten and they're in danger of losing the royal polish from national events. They want to be their version of royalty and to do that they have show why they're special and a step up from the rest of the progressive philanthropic famous crowd in LA and surrounding areas.

Yes Harry works with veterans and Invictus is great, but so do other members of the BRF. This was mostly there for self publicity and personal remembrance a 2nd priority I think.

 

[Denville]

I had thought that perhaps they had gone inot silence because nothing had been heard of them in the past week or 2....

 

[poppy7]

I had thought that perhaps they had gone inot silence because nothing had been heard of them in the past week or 2....

Heaven forbid. They are like instagrammers who gotta get the content out and be relevant. I get this is also the royals whole reason for being but the royals benefit the country and these two, themselves. I mean there is no charity yet. All money is theirs. So they basically promote themselves to keep themselves famous because they aren't doing anything. They sound self righteous in podcast and haven written one, badly written, blog post. Good for them. Most people consider that as a sideline and have a career that pays the bills. I mean if it wasn't for the fact that he is a grandson of Queen and the future son and brother of Kings no one would actually pay attention to them.

 

[Curryong]

Actually the couple didn't bring a camera crew into the cemetery. Just one photographer. They were respectful and quiet, wore dark clothes and poppies and laid flowers on the graves of two Commonwealth servicemen, as well as a wreath, with flowers from their own garden.

 

[Denville]

If it was meant to be a private act of remembrance why one photographer?

 

[rominet09]

My father lays in one of these cemeteries and I immediately felt a physically ill sensation. I thought of the honor of burying him, the flag, the gun salute, I thought of the solemnity of laying a wreath there in solitude every year, and the thought that any public figure would bring a camera crew onto the grounds of a veteran's cemetery for their own purposes is such an unsettling feeling.

I am honestly floored at the idea that doing so to stave off personal criticism (that people might have "been mean to him" had he not done it) would somehow be a justification.

First of all I salute the memory of your father who gave his life for our liberty. Rest in peace, Sir !
I completely agree with you, I thought they wanted privacy and of course it just "happened" a photographer was there to immortalize their gesture....

 

[Roslyn]

I am of two minds about this. My initial reaction was that this is another example of Harry demonstrating that he just doesn't understand what no longer being a working royal means for him, and this is just over the top attention-seeking behaviour.

On the other hand, he placed flowers on the graves of an Australian and a Canadian, two Commonwealth servicemen from countries for whom Remembrance Day means honouring the dead. It reminded me of the words of "The Soldier" about the corner of a foreign field that is forever England. Yes, different circumstances but there is that connotation neveretheless, and if that was in his mind and behind this action then, as an Australian, I am touched and a bit misty. Of course I may just be being a sentimental fool and Harry thought nothing of the sort... but maybe he did.

But he shouldn't have taken the photographer with him.

 

[Denville]

I am of two minds about this. My initial reaction was that this is another example of Harry demonstrating that he just doesn't understand what no longer being a working royal means for him, and this is just over the top attention-seeking behaviour.

On the other hand, he placed flowers on the graves of an Australian and a Canadian, two Commonwealth servicemen from countries for whom Remembrance Day means honouring the dead. It reminded me of the words of "The Soldier" about the corner of a foreign field that is forever England. Yes, different circumstances but there is that connotation neveretheless, and if that was in his mind and behind this action then, as an Australian, I am touched and a bit misty. Of course I may just be being a sentimental fool and Harry thought nothing of the sort... but maybe he did.

But he shouldn't have taken the photographer with him.

if he wanted to honour the war dead of the commonwealth, he could have done so wihtout the use of a camerman and publicising his gesture...

 

[AC21091968]

If it was meant to be a private act of remembrance why one photographer?

I agree, as mentioned earlier by previous posters, Harry & Meghan could have lay the wreath privately with no photographers. The story from the Sunday Times (by Roya Nikkhah) did them no favours at all, based on the twitter comments. It actually make Harry & Meghan look bad, rather than the other way round (i.e. Royal Family and Courtiers look bad by refusing Harry's plea to lay Cenotaph wreath)

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/prince-harrys-plea-to-lay-cenotaph-wreath-denied-t2wtght2m

 

[Curryong]

Harry left a wreath at BP last March, made by the Kent British Legion, with a request that it be laid on his behalf at the Cenotaph on Remembrance Sunday.
It cost £1,000 and has lain forgotten at BP since then.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-personally-recognise-Remembrance-Day-LA.html

 

[tommy100]

They could have simply released a picture of their wreath in place after laying it privately IMO (or released no picture at all but they wouldn't have done that)

Quiet, reflective remembrance would have been fantastic but the way this appears to have been set up by their PR guys simply looks like they are trying to trump the RF and the cenotaph service. I wonder how tis would have gone down in a normal year when the media would have been full of marching veterans (limited this year due to Covid)

What made me feel really sad is that they, via Omid, also used it to publicise the guy who took the pictures and linked to his work...promoting even in Remembrance.

Also, if Harry had been allowed to have a wreath laid for him, where does it stop? Andrew could have done the same as well.

 

[Curryong]

Two photographs at a cemetery is hardly trying to trump the RF at the Cenotaph. Not everything that Harry, whose heart has always been with vets and serving personnel, is to do with publicity, however much those who dislike him and Meghan try to say so. He was always at Remembrance Day services when he wasn't serving overseas.

 

[Osipi]

All of this sits with me the wrong way. It just doesn't feel "right" for some odd reason. It, to me, seems to have been done on purpose to be "inclusive" with what was happening in the UK for Remembrance Sunday but the thing is, they're not included in the events at the Cenotaph. Even Harry's message "“To all of those who have served, are are serving. Thank you.” would have been more appropriate if he had actually waited for the American Veteran's Day on the 11th.

I'm sure there are Americans in the UK that would go all out to celebrate the fourth Thursday in November, known in the States as Thanksgiving, but they'd do it among themselves as something personal to them. No matter what Harry and Meghan's honest intent about this, it ends up looking like a self seeking photo op for attention.

JMO

 

[tommy100]

Well for starters its 4 photos....but that is neither here nor there.

These could have been released well after the Cenotaph service, instead they were timed for Monday's UK newspapers.

I 100% agree Harry should be able to honour veterans and take part in Remembrance however he wants. It is just a shame IMO that it has to involve them being in every photo when the focus should be elsewhere (and I don't mean HM or the RF)

 

[Nico]

Actually the couple didn't bring a camera crew into the cemetery. Just one photographer. They were respectful and quiet, wore dark clothes and poppies and laid flowers on the graves of two Commonwealth servicemen, as well as a wreath, with flowers from their own garden.

The laugh ...
And why not... no photograph at all ?
Because they just don' t know how to be respectful and quiet.
Another PR stunt, another attention seeking moment
Next ...

 

[camelot23ca]

It is just a shame IMO that it has to involve them being in every photo when the focus should be elsewhere (and I don't mean HM or the RF)

Yes, while the remembrance ceremonies are some of the most important events the Royal Family attend, the focus is never on them as individuals. They’re present only in their roles as representatives of the British people. Harry and Meghan aren’t representing anyone except themselves at the cemetery. By releasing pictures to coincide with the ceremony in the UK they’ve inserted themselves and the Windsor family drama into an act where none of it has any business being.

The unfortunate part of it is that, if they had been less impetuous and more willing to take the long view, Harry could have gotten out of full time royal duties without having to give up the parts of the job he clearly enjoys. Taking their time and actively seeking to cooperate with the BRF in mapping out an orderly, well planned exit strategy would have benefitted Harry and Meghan immensely. They may have had to compromise more in the short term but then could have come very close to having the best of both worlds in the longer term.

 

[TLLK]

does teh US have a national act of remebmberance on the May day @TLLK? if you saw any of the UK things this week, it is 100 years since the burial of the Unknown Soldier in Westminster Abbey, where a single body was returned from France to the UK to be buried, as an act of honour and remembrance to those who had died in the Great War and were buried in France and Belgium,,,

Yes we do Denville. It's Memorial Day which is always the last Monday in May. There are typically ceremonies at the various National Cemeteries across the U.S. Our Unknown Soldier is buried at Arlington National Cemetery in Washington D.C.

Both Memorial Day and Veterans Day are official public holidays across the United States. But here are the key differences:
What the days honor

• Memorial Day: This is to honor military personnel who died in the service of their country, particularly those who died in battle or as a result of wounds sustained in battle, according to the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs.
• Veterans Day: A holiday to remember everyone who served in the military, period, whether or not they served in wartime.

Click on this link to find out more information.


https://www.rd.com/article/memorial-day-vs-veterans-day-difference/

 

[TLLK]

It's also different in Australia and New Zealand as well, where there are ANZAC day (25th April) and Remembrance day (11th November). According to Chris Widenbar from the Australian War Memorial.

"Anzac Day is a day for commemoration, for thanking the veterans and it's also part of our national story. Remembrance Day, on the other hand, is solely about remembrance. It's solely about remembering those 102,800 Australians who have given their lives for us."​

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/remembr...-australia-s-consciousness-says-war-historian

Going back to Harry & Meghan, I think bringing in a photographer gives a wrong optic and perceived as "self-publication". They could have just lay the wreath privately.

Thank you for sharing this information.

 

[QueenMathilde]

I am sure that Prince Harry would be able to find a wreath and attend a Veteran's Day service on Wednesday 11/11/20 to honor the service of American Veterans.

And it looks like he did just that.

 

[kathl29]

They could have simply released a picture of their wreath in place after laying it privately IMO (or released no picture at all but they wouldn't have done that)
.

I have been disappointed by how Harry and Meghan have behaved since leaving the UK. However, I have always felt that Harry found most peace in his life when he was in the Forces as he seemed to be at his best with the structure so I do genuinely believe he would want to mark Remembrance Sunday.

He must have known he would not be able to have a wreath placed at the cenotaph and so this seems a solution. Like Tommy I do however believe that it should have been more private - a photo of just the wreath/flowers to show they had marked the occasion released 24 hours after the Cenotaph without the pictures of them strolling in the cemetery holding hands. The pictures of them smacks of PR and not what they claimed they wanted to do which was to honour the fallen.

 

[Osipi]

And it looks like he did just that.

It was totally mixed up. The wreath was laid at the grave of Commonwealth soldiers in an American cemetery on Remembrance Sunday which is solely a UK remembrance time. The message was inclusive of thanks for those that have given their lives and those that are still serving which would fit in for American Veteran's day coming up this Wednesday.

That's what gets me about this. The message and the optics were as skewered and haphazardly executed much like their exit from the UK. To be honest, the pictures looked like they were staging an "event" rather than paying their respects.

All I could really think at first is that Harry's request for the Cenotaph was denied so he adopted the "well... I'll show *you*" attitude and staged his own event.

 

[Countessmeout]

All of this sits with me the wrong way. It just doesn't feel "right" for some odd reason. It, to me, seems to have been done on purpose to be "inclusive" with what was happening in the UK for Remembrance Sunday but the thing is, they're not included in the events at the Cenotaph. Even Harry's message "“To all of those who have served, are are serving. Thank you.” would have been more appropriate if he had actually waited for the American Veteran's Day on the 11th.

I'm sure there are Americans in the UK that would go all out to celebrate the fourth Thursday in November, known in the States as Thanksgiving, but they'd do it among themselves as something personal to them. No matter what Harry and Meghan's honest intent about this, it ends up looking like a self seeking photo op for attention.

JMO

But he wasn't honoring American veterans.

He made a point of laying flowers for commonwealth soldiers, an Australian and a Canadian. He was paying homage to commonwealth soldiers who died during the war, and in doing so honored them on Commonwealth remembrance Sunday. Yes the Canadian soldier could have been honored on November II which is Canada's remembrance day, but this was the right time.

You just argued the point yourself. Americans living in London still celebrate Thanksgiving in the end of November in the UK. Same can go for a British prince celebrating British remembrance on the same day as his people.


There was nothing wrong or showy about what they did. They simply showed honor to fallen soldiers. Of all the things for people to complain about these two, this is hardly the one.