The Duke & Duchess of Sussex and Family, News and Events 3: March - April 2021

[Curryong]

I saw the interview and when discussing the HRH matter Meghan referred to ‘they’ as to what she was told. I took it as senior aides/courtiers telling her, not Charles. And she never spoke about any ‘slimming down of the monarchy’ at all, not from Charles, not from anyone.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

However, would the risks be equal. In my own one-light town people are willing to start trouble with interracial couples. (despicable but true) it only takes one crazy on the either side of the racial divide to do something awful. IMO security worries are very real worldwide.

the security worries are absolutely very real - even if Meghan were a WASP, they would have to be concerned about his security is very high profile: Someone tried to kidnap Princess Anne, There was an IRA plot to kill Charles and Diana, et.

the argument is over who should pay for this security. My understanding is that the Prime Minister indicated that the Canadian government would pay their security. Charles gave them a few hundred pounds for seed money. Then, Canada withdrew the security. Harry got on the phone with Charles and demanded that Charles pay his security. For whatever reason, Charles declined.

So the issue isn't whether they should have security but whether Harry should dip into his mum's money (which came from Charles) to pay for it. Harry and Meghan should be grateful that they have the resources to have security. Many people all over the world have serious, legitimate concerns about their safety. Those that can't afford 24/7 security are often left to fend for themselves. It's not fair - but life isn't fair.

 

[texankitcat]

I cant' help feeling that actually Harry knows litlte more than Meghan..about the rules of royal life. Either that or he DOES know better but he can't persuade HER that the various things she's said in this interview are incorrect - so he just agrees with her...

It’s difficult to make the argument that Harry is as ignorant as Meghan pretends to be since he was born into it and raised within its protocols, rules and history. There is just no way he doesn’t know how things work and there is no way she is truly ignorant since these rules either considering the special team that was put in place to educate her on all areas of being a Royal duchess.

As for why Harry allowed these deceptions could only be for two reasons. The first is they discussed and planned the deceptions together for maximum dramatic affect and sympathy for the American audience who wouldn’t question or know anything about how the Monarchy works or this was Meghan’s doing and Harry was afraid to contradict her in order to keep her happy. Either way, Harry’s complicity in these deceptions is inexcusable.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

I saw the interview and when discussing the HRH matter Meghan referred to ‘they’ as to what she was told. I took it as senior aides/courtiers telling her, not Charles. And she never spoke about any ‘slimming down of the monarchy’ at all, not from Charles, not from anyone.

Apparently, she didn't say the words "sliming down" but she did discuss changing the rules so that Archie would not be a HRH and, as a result, not eligible for protection. Since the actual issue was that the Queen would not change the rules regarding Archie's royal status, I think it is reasonable to believe that Meghan was speaking about long discussed plans to reduce the number of HRHs.

There has been no official announcement, but given how the family handled the York princesses and Edward and Sophie handle their children's titles, I think it is obvious. Not everything has to be spelled out.

 

[Moran]

The interview keeps rolling, it seems. The man broke into their home in *December*, yet they only find it fitting to announce it now, after their recent complaints that the RF took away their security? If it doesn't prove that they need this security, I don't know what does. Good timing.


Given the fact that HMQ had a trespasser in her very bedroom, I'm not sure the RF provided security would have been iron-clad but whatever. I suppose providing better security for himself and his family with the millions he has is a priority for Harry.

 

[amaryllus]

The whole idea brought up Harry will do anything to keep her happy and is even afraid to contradict her Has abusive undertones and something I find very uncomfortable.

 

[AC21091968]

Stranger from Ohio found on Meghan and Harry’s grounds TWICE. Was finally arrested by police.

https://www.vanityfair.com/style/20...ia-estate-was-twice-invaded-over-the-holidays

I am not familiar with Californian Law and Santa Barbara County Police, but why was the trespasser not fined, but being let off with warning after he was caught in his first attempt? Surely, he should have been fined for breaking the law by entering a person's property without permission.

 

[rominet09]

Maybe if they had bought a smaller property instead of this enormous one, they could have afforded to pay for their security.

 

[KrissyM]

The royal title rules made in 1917 do not discriminate based on race or color in any form. They are available to read in their entirety at the following link:

https://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/prince_highness_docs.htm#1917_2

George the Fifth by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and of the British Dominions beyond the Seas, King, Defender of the Faith To all to whom these presents shall come Greeting: Whereas Her late Majesty Queen Victoria did by Her Letters Patent dated the thirtieth day of January in the twenty seventh year of Her Reign declare her Royal Pleasure as to the style and title of the Princes and Princesses of the Royal Family in the manner in the said Letters Patent particularly mentioned And whereas we deem it expedient that the said Letters Patent should be extended and amended and that the styles and titles to be borne by the Princes and Princesses of the Royal Family should be henceforth established defined and limited in manner hereinafter declared Now Know Ye that We of our especial grace certain knowledge and mere motion do hereby declare our Royal Will and Pleasure that the children of any Sovereign of these Realms and the children of the sons of any such Sovereign and the eldest living son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales shall have and at all times hold and enjoy the style title or attribute of Royal Highness with their titular dignity of Prince or Princess prefixed to their respective Christian names or with their other titles of honour And We do further declare our Royal Will and Pleasure that save as aforesaid the style title or attribute of Royal Highness Highness or Serene Highness and the titular dignity of Prince or Princess shall not henceforth be assumed or borne by any descendent of any Sovereign of these Realms excepting always any such descendant who at the date of these Letters Patent holds or bears any right to any such style degree attribute or titular dignity in pursuance of any Letters Patent granted by Ourselves or any of Our Royal Predecessors and still remaining unrevoked it being Our Royal Will and Pleasure that the grandchildren of the sons of any such Sovereign in the direct male line (save only the eldest living son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales) shall have and enjoy in all occasions the style and title enjoyed by the children of Dukes of these Our Realms Our Will and Pleasure further is that Our Earl Marshal of England or his deputy for the time being do cause these our Letters Patent or the enrolment thereof to be recorded in Our College of Arms to the end that Our officers of Arms and all others may take due notice thereof. In Witness whereof We have caused these Our Letters to be made Patent Witness Ourself at Westminster the thirtieth day of November in the eighth year of Our reign.

By Warrant under the King's Sign Manual.
Schuster.

(Original letters patent, National Archives, HO 125/15. See also College of Arms, ms. I78/25.)

Whitehall, 11th December, 1917.
The KING has been pleased by Letters Patent under the Great Seal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, bearing date the 30th ultimo, to define the styles and titles to be borne henceforth by members of the Royal Family. It is declared by the Letters Patent that the children of any Sovereign of the United Kingdom and the children of the sons of any such Sovereign and the eldest living son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales shall have and at all times hold and enjoy the style, title or attribute of Royal Highness with their titular dignity of Prince or Princess prefixed to their respective Christian names or with their other titles of honour; that save as aforesaid the titles of Royal Highness, Highness or Serene Highness, and the titular dignity of Prince and Princess shall cease except those titles already granted and remaining unrevoked; and that the grandchildren of the sons of any such Sovereign in the direct male line (save only the eldest living son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales) shall have the style and title enjoyed by the children of Dukes.

(London Gazette, issue 30428, Dec. 14, 1917, p. 2.)​

But that's not what it looks like! In today's world that's what counts. Why should it matter to the BRF how it looks to a bi-racial American? Because, The Duchess is a bi-racial American. She became a part of the "brand" she still is whether she is a working royal or not.

 

[poppy7]

The whole idea brought up Harry will do anything to keep her happy and is even afraid to contradict her Has abusive undertones and something I find very uncomfortable.

Whole thing is uncomfortable

 

[UglyAmerican]

If the palace intended for Harry's children to have titles, it seems to me like it would have been easiest to include him and his future offspring in the change made right before George's birth. I'd have to look up the exact wording, but if the Queen can say "All of William's children will be HRH," then she can say "All of William's and Harry's children will be HRH."

I remember reading reports that she'd left most of the negotiations about Harry's status to Charles, in recognition of the fact that the long-term consequences were going to be his problem, not hers. I don't know if that's true or not, but something similar may have happened here. Maybe she'd already made the decision about slimming down the monarchy, but I think it's also possible that she thought Charles might be on the throne by the time Harry had his first child, so she decided to leave it for him to decide in the future. But then it turned out that she was still on the throne when it happened, so she went with her own preference, which was for slimming down. Or maybe that was Charles's preference rather than her own, but she allowed him to make the decision. Regardless, all of those possibilities indicate that not giving titles to Harry's kids was at least being considered at the time of George's birth, which was well before Harry met Meghan. I don't think anyone suggesting that a long-considered plan to slim down the British monarchy should be disregarded because of bad things happened in the US in 1917 would have been taken seriously.

If Meghan can call up the Queen to ask how Philip is doing, she can call up the Queen to ask why Archie didn't get a title. And whatever else Meghan is, she's not shy about speaking up when she doesn't like something, so I find it hard to believe she never did that. Whatever the reason it, someone somewhere along the line explained it to her, probably more than once.

 

[poppy7]

Maybe if they had bought a smaller property instead of this enormous one, they could have afforded to pay for their security.

They have a huge mortgage. Apparently that is something the media can look up.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

But that's not what it looks like! In today's world that's what counts. Why should it matter to the BRF how it looks to a bi-racial American? Because, The Duchess is a bi-racial American. She became a part of the "brand" she still is whether she is a working royal or not.

But Meghan and Harry's children will have HRH titles, probably before they are pre-teens. I don't think most people in today's world are wondering why Archie doesn't have a HRH but Louis does. The kids are too young for most people to care about that.

 

[texankitcat]

the security worries are absolutely very real - even if Meghan were a WASP, they would have to be concerned about his security is very high profile: Someone tried to kidnap Princess Anne, There was an IRA plot to kill Charles and Diana, et.

the argument is over who should pay for this security. My understanding is that the Prime Minister indicated that the Canadian government would pay their security. Charles gave them a few hundred pounds for seed money. Then, Canada withdrew the security. Harry got on the phone with Charles and demanded that Charles pay his security. For whatever reason, Charles declined.

So the issue isn't whether they should have security but whether Harry should dip into his mum's money (which came from Charles) to pay for it. Harry and Meghan should be grateful that they have the resources to have security. Many people all over the world have serious, legitimate concerns about their safety. Those that can't afford 24/7 security are often left to fend for themselves. It's not fair - but life isn't fair.

There are many high profile powerful executives, celebrities, musicians, etc.., that face security risks these days and find it necessary to hire their own security. Harry wanted a financially independent life in the US and he has it. He is a grown man who has never had to pay his own bills, but his decisions now require that he does. Quit the never ending lawsuits and paying astronomical legal fees and cut back on extravagant expenses and it will be a whole lot easier to afford security.

 

[poppy7]

But Meghan and Harry's children will have HRH titles, probably before they are pre-teens. I don't think most people in today's world are wondering why Archie doesn't have a HRH but Louis does. The kids are too young for most people to care about that.

I beg to differ. The Queens death will cause a huge identity crisis in the UK. I doubt anyone will want to hear about the elevation in title of 2 American kids. I mean at the time feeling may be so high that it is felt Harry should at the very least be hidden away then.

In the long run. Sympathy with M an H won't be there.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

I beg to differ. The Queens death will cause a huge identity crisis in the UK. I doubt anyone will want to hear about the elevation in title of 2 American kids. I mean at the time feeling may be so high that it is felt Harry should at the very least be hidden away then.

In the long run. Sympathy with M an H won't be there.

I agree but I was responding to a post that indicated that it looks bad for Harry's kids not to be HRHs. With respect to when Charles ascends, my understanding is that Harry's children will immediately be HRHs, just like Charles immediately will become king after the Queen's death. It's a nonissue now and it will be a nonissue when the time comes.

 

[texankitcat]

But Meghan and Harry's children will have HRH titles, probably before they are pre-teens. I don't think most people in today's world are wondering why Archie doesn't have a HRH but Louis does. The kids are too young for most people to care about that.

But will they? We know Harry and Meghan will never return to Britain to live which means their children will be raised in America as Americans. What possible need would they have for HRH status titles? The US doesn’t recognize titles so they won’t be able to use them in their lives here in the US.

 

[poppy7]

I agree but I was responding to a post that indicated that it looks bad for Harry's kids not to be HRHs. With respect to when Charles ascends, my understanding is that Harry's children will immediately be HRHs, just like Charles immediately will become king after the Queen's death. It's a nonissue now and it will be a nonissue when the time comes.

In theory but it won't happen

 

[KrissyM]

But will they? We know Harry and Meghan will never return to Britain to live which means their children will be raised in America as Americans. What possible need would they have for HRH status titles? The US doesn’t recognize titles so they won’t be able to use them in their lives here in the US.

That's hardly a fact.

 

[AC21091968]

But that's not what it looks like! In today's world that's what counts. Why should it matter to the BRF how it looks to a bi-racial American? Because, The Duchess is a bi-racial American. She became a part of the "brand" she still is whether she is a working royal or not.

Tatiana Maria just gave you a very comprehensive and detailed response with evidence that Royal Titles are not based on race (but rather on gender). You come across very badly and rude here by not even acknowledging her contribution, but rather dismissing it simply because it does not reflect your (or even Meghan's) perspective.

Please at least thank her for taking her time and effort (publicly in quoting/responding the forum or privately with the Thanks button), even if you don't agree. She is very knowledgable on Royal titles and I certainly have learned a lot from her posts, especially in Questions about British Styles and Titles thread.

 

[estellastheme]

I am not familiar with Californian Law and Santa Barbara County Police, but why was the trespasser not fined, but being let off with warning after he was caught in his first attempt? Surely, he should have been fined for breaking the law by entering a person's property without permission.

I can't believe this is my first post here, but California trespassing laws are convoluted. Most of the time the police will just ask the person to leave if they're not threatening harm, creating damage or trying to occupy/claim squatters rights (and even then depending on the county you live in good luck getting them to leave with the last one) since it's a misdemeanor with a max of a few months in prison and there are loopholes if you aren't doing something that would turn it into a felony criminal charge like say the property isn't fully fenced or have signs all around it clearly static no trespassing you can fight to have charges thrown out in court.

I live in actual Hollywood - not Beverly Hills or a whole county north like H&M do - and when dealing with trespassers in the city of LA you have to complete a citizens arrest when LAPD comes or they won't do anything but ask them to leave. This is generally more hassle than it's worth since it often involves the need to go to court. If it os a pattern they take it more seriously so it's generally suggested that the police give them a warning the first time then will arrest if it happens again. However I would have assumed SBPD, especially in the Montecito area, would be a bit stricter but... clearly not.

 

[Harald]

They have a huge mortgage. Apparently that is something the media can look up.

Any man and his dog can file a request for Californian mortgage records.

https://www.calhfa.ca.gov/about/pra/RequestForMortgageRecords.htm

 

[KrissyM]

Forgive me, but I already knew and understood the LP's I'm not ignorant of the facts. I mentioned this before. Repeating them isn't educating me at all. It's not that I meant to be rude. But, Tatiana Maria missed the entire point of my imaginary scenario. In it I acknowledged that the current LP's don't discriminate on Ethnicity.

 

[Osipi]

But that's not what it looks like! In today's world that's what counts. Why should it matter to the BRF how it looks to a bi-racial American? Because, The Duchess is a bi-racial American. She became a part of the "brand" she still is whether she is a working royal or not.

When a new employee hires into Microsoft or Amazon or Google, they agree to adhere to the way the company works. The company doesn't alter their rules and regulations because of a newly hired person that believes they should do things differently than they do. When Meghan married Harry, she also knew that she was becoming part of a 1000+ year old institution that perhaps she didn't understand because there's so many ins and outs and ups and downs and dos and don'ts that baffle even a life long British citizen.

How it *looks* isn't why the "Firm" changes up things. A Brit moving to the USA has rules and regulations to follow living and working in the US. Harry's now bound by these conventions. They're not going to change those rules for Harry because he's a British prince. It was totally up to Meghan to adapt and conform to the way the "Firm" does things and not for the "Firm" to adapt and conform to a singular person that joined the ranks of the monarchy and royal family.

 

[KrissyM]

It was totally up to Meghan to adapt and conform to the way the "Firm" does things and not for the "Firm" to adapt and conform to a singular person that joined the ranks of the monarchy and royal family.

This is why "the Firm" has been in one hot mess after another for 40 years.

 

[Queen Ester]

Originally Posted by KrissyM View Post
However, it isn't wrong for anyone to question them or to agree or to disagree with them. My point has always been the rational that the 'rules' cannot be changed is flawed.

Why weren't they changed for Master Archie and his future siblings? To me the obvious answer would be, 'we will not know' for some time. I can live with that.

But people should be allowed to question, agree, and disagree, as long as its done politely

You can't agree or disagree with the very basic principle of the Monarchy, and some people want to see Harry and William as equals, and they are not.

 

[KrissyM]

You can't agree or disagree with the very basic principle of the Monarchy, and some people want to see Harry and William as equals, and they are not.

Oh yes I can. How would giving The Sussex's children HRH's early make The Duke's equal? It wouldn't. The Duke of Sussex will still never be king. The Duke of Cambridge may be.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

This is why "the Firm" has been in one hot mess after another for 40 years.

Given the fact that the monarchy is favored by a majority of Britons and the Queen and William enjoy high popularity ratings, I don't think it matters. The monarchy consists of human beings who are always under a microscope - there is always going to be some drama. As long as the British people - who are represented by the monarchy support it, it will survive.

 

[Moran]

This is why "the Firm" has been in one hot mess after another for 40 years.

So the "Firm" should have changed to meet the demands of every new person who might just be passing by?


Meghan might be biracial but if she had played fairly and admitted that she knew the rules and really accepted them - aka hitting the ground running, - no one would have thought twice about the reason Archie didn't *temporarily* have a HRH as they, indeed, didn't until she opened her mouth and told the lie. And stating that she didn't know won't wash. She did. Or she didn't want to know. For a self-proclaimed educated, smart woman she could have found it as easily as every one of us. She should have if it mattered so much to her. Or do you think she was intentionally lied to by the "men in grey"? Perhaps she should have just asked Harry. She certainly should have checked before accusing people of racism on TV.

 

[Queen Ester]

Okay this is my first real 'opinion' rather than just playing devil's advocate. Putting on my CJ Cregg hat, if I was an advisor, the minute I heard The Sussex's were expecting I'd sit down with the Queen and this would be the scene...

"Ma'am, I strongly urge you to re-write the LP's to say that starting from this birth all Great-grandchildren on the Monarch are automatically granted HRH unless specifically refused by their parents,"

"Why?" Her Majesty would reasonably ask.

"Ma'am, if you don't, someone, somewhere could and likely would say that this child isn't given it because of his ethnic makeup."

Possibly Her Majesty would say "But that's untrue, and ridiculous. The rules were made in 1917."

"That's correct ma'am. However, in 1917 people of color were lynched in the US and couldn't even use the same lavatory until the late 60's. Someone will bring it up, and the only way not to have a horse in that race, is to cancel the race. This is the world we live in now."

But that's not how the Monarchy works, there is an order to things and it can't be changed just because Archie is bi-racial