Possible Dukedom for Harry and Meghan

[Denville]

That one isn't in the running as Connaught is one of the provinces in the Republic of Ireland-a foreign country. Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom.

Yes how many times must this be stated. it would be appalling....

 

[O-H Anglophile]

Duke of Frogmore? Or is that just crazy?

 

[cepe]

In the UK, if a member of the public knows Frogmore, then it is as the Royal Burial Ground.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

In the UK, if a member of the public knows Frogmore, then it is as the Royal Burial Ground.

So are you saying Duke of Frogmore would be morbid or only suitable for a Halloween character? Sorry.

Guess it is a non-starter.

 

[cmsteepy]

The following is a corrected version of my post earlier in this thread, #358.


First, let me say it is strongly believed that Prince Harry and Meghan Markel will be granted the titles of Duke and Duchess of Sussex just before their marriage in May. However, I would like to make the case that the Duke of Clarence should be strongly considered.

Royal Dukedoms have generally followed one of two patterns:
1) From the "original list of 5" dukedoms established by King Edward III; Cornwall, Clarence, Lancaster, York & Gloucester.
2) Dukedoms or Earldoms from the geographic names of the Heptarchy (the 7 Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms of England prior to the unification under King Egbert); Northumbria, Kent, Wessex, Sussex, Essex, East Anglia & Mercia. Two of these larger kingdoms have been broken down into smaller geographic subdivisions. For example, East Anglia now encompasses the titles of Norfolk, Suffolk and Cambridge.

When evaluating the "original list of 5" from above, all are in use by a member of the current House of Windsor, except Clarence which is vacant. When evaluating the list from the Heptarchy, nearly all are in use. Kent and Wessex by the House of Windsor, Northumria by the House of Percy, Essex by the House of Capell, East Anglia and its geographic subdivisions are held by the Houses of Howard or Windsor. Mercia, the largest of the former kingdoms, it's geographic subdivisions are already tied up in dukedom or earldom titles, and finally Sussex which is vacant.

At this point, the choice between Clarence and Sussex is a toss-up. Some would (and do) argue that Clarence should not be chosen due to some of the negative character associations connected to this title. However, we have recently learned that Prince Harry and Meghan Markel share common royal ancestry, both descending from Lionel of Antwerp, the 1st Duke of Clarence, the second son of King Edward III (according to American Ancestors by the New England Historic Genealogical Society) View this link https://www.americanancestors.org/uploadedfiles/content/features/meghan-markle-chart.pdf This fact alone tips the scales for me. For those that still argue against the title of Clarence, I would suggest, what better couple could change the perception of the Clarence title in a more positive light than Prince Harry and Meghan?

As mentioned above, I do believe Sussex is going to be the more likely choice, however, there is an opportunity for the House of Windsor to grant and hold the final title from the “original list of 5” all within the current royal family.

We now wait and see.

 

[FashionMaven]

Your argument is really persuasive. The tidbit about both Harry and Meghan having ancestral ties to Clarence makes it very appealing.

I’ve heard it has some bad history. Going to check the thread for that toe remind me what it was.

Duke and Duchess of Clarence has a decent ring to it. It’s sounds better than Sussex, though that’s not awful either.

I wish Windsor didn’t have such a bad history to it because I’d love that for them just due to how they spent so much time there falling in Love.

 

[Curbside]

Clarence sounds better than Sussex, definitely. Y'all refer to Will and Kate as the "Cambridges." The "Clarences" sounds better than the "Sussexes."

 

[Pranter]

All of the titles have some bad history. So I wouldn't use that really as a determining factor.

It's interesting that Clarence is the only one of the 5 not in use and both Harry and Meghan have a tie to that house.

I've been pulling for Clarence a long time now...fingers crossed!


LaRae

 

[Ish]

I hadn’t thought about Duke of Clarence being the only one of the first 5 not in use until now. I wonder if that’s part of why people have thought it was going to be used for William and Edward at their time.

 

[Pranter]

Me either Ish...it was quite a interesting bit of info when I saw that. Makes me have more hope!


LaRae

 

[W.Y.CII]

Thanks for the info, cmsteepy! That's interesting and impressive. Interesting to know that both Harry and Meghan have connection to the Clarence, even though they don't have to relate to their dukedom. After their engagement some local media here misreported they would be duke and duchess of Sussex and I was more disappointed than I though I would be! I really hope they would receive Clarence rather than Sussex.

 

[cmsteepy]

I hadn’t thought about Duke of Clarence being the only one of the first 5 not in use until now. I wonder if that’s part of why people have thought it was going to be used for William and Edward at their time.

I suspect that is absolutely the reason why it was being considered for Prince Edward and Prince William. The title Duke of Clarence is one of the most prestigious titles in British royal history, dating back to 1362 when first bestowed on Lionel of Antwerp.

The title Duke of Clarence can also be considered one of the contributing factors leading to the Wars of the Roses (also known as the Cousins War) in English History. When the great granddaughter and heiress of Lionel of Antwerp, Anne Mortimer, married into the House of York, her descendants became the senior Plantagenet line and had a stronger claim to the English throne than even the current ruling house, the House of Lancaster. This sets the stage for the Wars of the Roses.

The Clarence title has a rich history, both positive and negative and as we have explored in this thread, all of the major titles have a similar rich history. Additionally, as pointed out earlier in this thread, it really becomes a matter of timing. A more recent negative association to a title could delay its re-creation until those memories fade. The last holder of the Clarence title was Prince Albert Victor (1890-1892) and the question becomes, is 126 years long enough to disassociate from Prince Albert and be created anew?

 

[Denville]

The reason it was discussed was that there aren't that many Royal dukedoms. So assuming the queen didn't produce a new title, there were only a few that she would be able to use...

 

[MaiaMia_53]

Sussex or Suffolk both sound nice. I agree that the Clarence history is way too much of a downer, despite the name having a nice ring to it. I also love the sound of Lancaster, but is it even available? The mutual ancestral connection to a former Duke of Clarence I hadn't heard about previously. That's interesting, and maybe enough time has passed for the name to receive a new image. We shall see what happens.

Hasn't there been gossip before he ever met Meghan, that Prince Harry likes the Sussex title?

I totally agree that Duke and Duchess of Windsor would be the perfect title for Meghan and Harry except for the too recent association with Wallis Simpson and Edward VIII (David).


One of the titles in the linked ancestral chart for Meghan & Harry has a rather nice ring to it as well: Somerset.

Does anyone know the difference between the bold line vs the equal sign in the ancestral chart listings?

 

[Countessmeout]

Sussex or Suffolk both sound nice. I agree that the Clarence history is way too much of a downer, despite the name having a nice ring to it. I also love the sound of Lancaster, but is it even available? The mutual ancestral connection to a former Duke of Clarence I hadn't heard about previously. That's interesting, and maybe enough time has passed for the name to receive a new image. We shall see what happens.

Hasn't there been gossip before he ever met Meghan, that Prince Harry likes the Sussex title?

I totally agree that Duke and Duchess of Windsor would be the perfect title for Meghan and Harry except for the too recent association with Wallis Simpson and Edward VIII (David).


One of the titles in the linked ancestral chart for Meghan & Harry has a rather nice ring to it as well: Somerset.

Does anyone know the difference between the bold line vs the equal sign in the ancestral chart listings?

No Lancaster is not available. The queen is Duke of Lancaster (not duchess). The monarch always is. It is where her income comes from, in the way that Charles gets his from Cornwall.

Sussex has been kicked around since Edward, as the next title to be used.

Why would Windsor be perfect for them? Simply because getting married there? Edward and Sophie married there as well. The title was created for David as it was a new title, and one they wouldn't mind not being used again. It was never intended as something they would picture giving to future generations.

Clarence really doesn't have any sadder history then any others. They all have a good and bad history.


As for Somerset, the current Duke of Somerset (19th duke of this creation) may have an issue with that.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Sussex or Suffolk both sound nice. I agree that the Clarence history is way too much of a downer, despite the name having a nice ring to it. I also love the sound of Lancaster, but is it even available?

No.

The current Duke of Lancaster is very much alive and well. She looked lovely yesterday in her orange outfit with the Australian wattle brooch at church.

She has around 4000 heirs with the heir apparent being HRH The Prince of Wales, Earl of Chester, Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothsay etc.

Enough of being facetious and some historical background if I may:

The monarch kept the Lancaster title when it merged with the Crown after the Battle of Bosworth and the income from the holdings of the Duchy of Lancaster provides the private income for the monarch.

And no - Philip isn't the Duchess of Lancaster - ... but in time Camilla will be.

 

[MaiaMia_53]

No Lancaster is not available. The queen is Duke of Lancaster (not duchess). The monarch always is. It is where her income comes from, in the way that Charles gets his from Cornwall.

Sussex has been kicked around since Edward, as the next title to be used.

Why would Windsor be perfect for them? Simply because getting married there? Edward and Sophie married there as well. The title was created for David as it was a new title, and one they wouldn't mind not being used again. It was never intended as something they would picture giving to future generations.

Clarence really doesn't have any sadder history then any others. They all have a good and bad history.

As for Somerset, the current Duke of Somerset (19th duke of this creation) may have an issue with that.

Eh you state some facts mixed with your opinions. Thanks for reciting the facts, but just as you do, I have my own opinions, likes and dislikes.

I happen to like the Windsor name, and H&M have obviously already been reported to feel a special love and affinity for Windsor Castle and the Windsor estate. Obviously, Windsor is a perfect English name, and that's one of the reasons why it was chosen by the British monarchy as their new moniker when Saxe-Coburg-Gotha quickly needed to be ditched. Quite clearly, the dukedom was especially created for Edward VIII (David) after his abdication, and thus it's too recently and too closely associated with Wallis & David.

Yep, I figured Somerset was already taken, and I recall now that you point it out, I'd previously read about Lancaster being one of the titles held by the monarch.

I happen to think the Clarence title has a sad history that was further besmirched by the life and death of the last holder of that title. Again, we will find out soon enough which dukedom will be bestowed upon Prince Harry.

 

[Countessmeout]

Windsor as a last name has been proudly used by those without a title, and will continue to be so

Windsor as a TITLE is another matter all together. WINDSOR as a TITLE was created for a disgraced former king who gave up his throne to marry a divorcee. The family chose to not use one of their older titles for him, knowing it wasn't likely ever to be used again. Instead they used a dukedom using the family's surname instead. Instead of using a province or something that may wish to use in the generations to come.

This is not Opinion. Simple facts.

As nice as you may think it, it is a title with only one association/one creation. One that people still alive were around for. It is not comparable to a title like Clarence where the last Duke of Clarence died young.

Sorry just because you don't like the facts, doesn't make them wrong.

 

[MaiaMia_53]

Your peremptory attitude is exceedingly unnecessary.

You're very liberal at mixing in with the facts what you happen to think as well as being dismissive and making assumptions about what others think. I'm not the only one to state that 'Windsor' would be nice for Meghan & Harry, even though it's not a dukedom that will likely ever be assigned again. I'm aware of the circumstances of how and why that dukedom was given to Edward VIII.

And we're back where we started. We will find out soon enough what the dukedom will be for Prince Harry. It has been reported, whether true or not, that Harry likes the Sussex title.

The last Duke of Clarence dying young has little to do with the unpleasant (swept under the rug) aspects of his life. However, enough time may have passed for the title to be brought back in this new generation. And @cmsteepy made a compelling case for the Clarence dukedom to be brought back for Prince Harry.

 

[Countessmeout]

Your peremptory attitude is exceedingly unnecessary.

You're very liberal at mixing in with the facts what you happen to think as well as being dismissive and making assumptions about what others think. I'm not the only one to state that 'Windsor' would be nice for Meghan & Harry, even though it's not a dukedom that will likely ever be assigned again. I'm aware of the circumstances of how and why that dukedom was given to Edward VIII.

And we're back where we started. We will find out soon enough what the dukedom will be for Prince Harry. It has been reported, whether true or not, that Harry likes the Sussex title.

The last Duke of Clarence dying young has little to do with the unpleasant (swept under the rug) aspects of his life. However, enough time may have passed for the title to be brought back in this new generation. And @cmsteepy made a compelling case for the Clarence dukedom to be brought back for Prince Harry.

Again just because you don't like Facts doesn't make them not Facts. I never stated a single opinion on the Windsor title. Simple Fact. David was not made Duke of Windsor because of the castle, or geography. It was chosen because it was his surname. They made a conscious choice to create a new title, so not to throw away an old historic Title. FACT. The queen and many who knew David are alive, Fact. Many who know the bad connections to the title are alive, Fact. Which do you argue with????

Even if the queen would give a title with so much personal pain away, do you think her ignorant to public opinion? The fact is that the comparisons have been made between Harry and Meghan/Edward and Wallis already. The divorcee American. The last thing that is needed, is them to be given the same title.

Nor do we know that they have that much of a bond to the castle. Other then marrying there. We know they 'walked in the country'. Whether that was Windsor palace is an assumption people have made. There isn't much privacy there. It could very well have been High Grove, Sandringham or even a friend's estate for privacy where they walked.

As for Clarence I assume you are talking about the rumored brothel stuff? How many people would actually know that? You would over look the very real scandal of Windsor, but throw out Clarence due to rumored scandal from well over a hundred years ago (1889, so 128 years and counting)??

 

[MaiaMia_53]

Again just because you don't like Facts doesn't make them not Facts. I never stated a single opinion on the Windsor title. Simple Fact. David was not made Duke of Windsor because of the castle, or geography. It was chosen because it was his surname. They made a conscious choice to create a new title, so not to throw away an old historic Title. FACT. The queen and many who knew David are alive, Fact. Many who know the bad connections to the title are alive, Fact. Which do you argue with????

Even if the queen would give a title with so much personal pain away, do you think her ignorant to public opinion? The fact is that the comparisons have been made between Harry and Meghan/Edward and Wallis already. The divorcee American. The last thing that is needed, is them to be given the same title.

Nor do we know that they have that much of a bond to the castle. Other then marrying there. We know they 'walked in the country'. Whether that was Windsor palace is an assumption people have made. There isn't much privacy there. It could very well have been High Grove, Sandringham or even a friend's estate for privacy where they walked.

As for Clarence I assume you are talking about the rumored brothel stuff? How many people would actually know that? You would over look the very real scandal of Windsor, but throw out Clarence due to rumored scandal from well over a hundred years ago (1889, so 128 years and counting)??

You are making so many assumptions and presumptions, it's hard to keep up with you! ?

In fact, below are the comments that seem to have prompted your nosedive into the Windsor kettle of fish:

I wish Windsor didn’t have such a bad history to it because I’d love that for them just due to how they spent so much time there falling in Love.

... I totally agree that Duke and Duchess of Windsor would be the perfect title for Meghan and Harry except for the too recent association with Wallis Simpson and Edward VIII (David).

So okay @Countessmeout, you are making continued assumptions, presumptions, and grabbing on like a terrier to lighthearted comments about personal preferences in a poll thread about possible dukedoms that truly has nothing to do with weighty matters of life or death.

I happen to like the name Windsor for a dukedom. The Windsor estate's happy association and affinity for Meghan & Harry, was recently reported. I like the ring of Windsor despite the fact that it's already the name of the royal house and is highly unlikely to be used again anytime soon for a number of reasons. Obviously it's not even in the running. However, the poster who initially expressed a preference for 'Windsor,' is actually the person to whom I initially casually responded to in the first place.

But continue on making more of this than is absolutely necessary. ?

 

[Mbruno]

All titles have some unpleasant history associated to them if one goes back far enough in time. I don't see why Clarence should be discarded a priori solely because of the fate of the last holder of the title. Personally, I think it sounds much better than Sussex.

 

[leticia.h]

My vote is for the Duke of Clarence... but they may get Sussex.

It sucks that Windsor was wasted on Wallis and Edward, I don't think they'll get it. It would be a great title but the history is too recent unlike with Clarence.

 

[Denville]

True but the odds are that if it is something the senior royals can remember, they may avoid giving it. Clarence has had quite a bit of "bad history". Poor Albert Victor would have been a terrible problem for the RF, unless Q Mary had succeeded in improving him. Windsor, I don't think ti is off the cards forever, maybe in antoher 50 years. but not now.. esp as Meghan IS an American divorced woman.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

Windsor as a last name has been proudly used by those without a title, and will continue to be so

Windsor as a TITLE is another matter all together. WINDSOR as a TITLE was created for a disgraced former king who gave up his throne to marry a divorcee. The family chose to not use one of their older titles for him, knowing it wasn't likely ever to be used again. Instead they used a dukedom using the family's surname instead. Instead of using a province or something that may wish to use in the generations to come.

This is not Opinion. Simple facts.

As nice as you may think it, it is a title with only one association/one creation. One that people still alive were around for. It is not comparable to a title like Clarence where the last Duke of Clarence died young.

Sorry just because you don't like the facts, doesn't make them wrong.

I agree, using a title created for someone who abandoned his duty to his family and country, not even considering the rest of the baggage, would be very unfortunate.

 

[Pranter]

My vote is for the Duke of Clarence... but they may get Sussex.

It sucks that Windsor was wasted on Wallis and Edward, I don't think they'll get it. It would be a great title but the history is too recent unlike with Clarence.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Clarence!



LaRae

 

[MaiaMia_53]

I agree, using a title created for someone who abandoned his duty to his family and country, not even considering the rest of the baggage, would be very unfortunate.

Right, and I still like the ring of Windsor. ? But as I already responded to the initial poster @FashionMaven, "there is too recent an association with Edward VIII (David)," who as we all know (because it's impossible for it to recede from memory that quickly): "abandoned his duty to his family and country." Added to this serious drawback is the fact that David had numerous character flaws and he would not have been the right person to serve as King of Great Britain during WWII. Even before he died, King George V was worried about his son David inheriting the throne.

Again, @cmsteepy made a good case for Clarence. We will definitely find out. For the poll, it looks like Sussex is winning over Clarence by about half (nonscientific).

 

[O-H Anglophile]

Right, and I still like the ring of Windsor. ? But as I already responded to the initial poster @FashionMaven, "there is too recent an association with Edward VIII (David)," who as we all know (because it's impossible for it to recede from memory that quickly): "abandoned his duty to his family and country." Added to this serious drawback is the fact that David had numerous character flaws and he would not have been the right person to serve as King of Great Britain during WWII. Even before he died, King George V was worried about his son David inheriting the throne.

Yes, the serious drawback you allude to is one of many things I meant by "rest of the baggage"-that baggage was packed.

 

[Somebody]

For the general public I would expect that 'Clarence' is mainly related to 'Clarence House', so more to the queen mother and the prince of Wales. Not such a bad association, I'd say...

 

[cmsteepy]

For the general public I would expect that 'Clarence' is mainly related to 'Clarence House', so more to the queen mother and the prince of Wales. Not such a bad association, I'd say...

Now that's an interesting angle to think about. Let's think this through to it's possible conclusion. Below are some facts and questions:

• The Prince of Wales currently lives in Clarence House.
• When The Prince of Wales ascends the throne, will he move into Buckingham Palace?
• Prince Harry and Meghan will presumably need to move into a home more fitting of their status.
• Could they be created the Duke and Duchess of Clarence and move into Clarence House?

Hmmm?