Possible Dukedom for Harry and Meghan

[Zaira]

I actually do like Sussex, but feel the media will have an absolute field day. I already shutter at the DM headlines *eyeroll*

I like Clarence and it would continue the 'C' trend for the Wales' lol. I read somewhere that Clarence and Avondale could be combined?

In my ideal world, I LOVE Windsor for the title, but I have feeling it will be a cold day in hell before HM grants that to someone. But it is lovely and elegant and also is a nice tribute to a place that seems special to Harry and Meghan.

I also think it is possible Harry may turn down a title.

 

[Denville]

he certainly wotn turn down a title.. it is an honour from the queen to him and his bride and a sign that he's now a mature person and a fully functioning royal.

 

[Pranter]

I am pulling for Clarence however my long shot is Windsor. I know it's not likely..but I still like the idea.


LaRae

 

[Missjersey]

I’m rooting for Windsor- knowing it’s a long shot due to it’s history but still rooting.

 

[ACO]

I think Sussex is happening. I am not the biggest fan though.

So do we think the Queen will keep the letters the same and the kids will be Lady/Lord?

 

[Osipi]

I think a lot of whether the kids are princ/ess or lord/lady resides mainly with Harry and Meghan themselves. I would imagine that the Queen has had a talk about all this with the couple themselves and will act according to their wishes.

I definitely think that Harry will be created a royal duke on the day of his marriage but anything concerning the couple's kids and letters patent right now is totally up in the air as there's a lot of ways they can go with this. We'll find out on the wedding day. Another big thing to look forward to.

 

[Somebody]

Prior to the Letters Patent of George V, their children -as great grandchildren of the monarch in male-line- would have been styled as Highnesses (instead of royal highnesses) if I am not mistaken. For example king George VI himself was born as HH prince Albert of York.

 

[ACO]

IIRC the letters were changed when Kate was pregnant to allow the children to all have the HRH title. Only George would have had it, not Charlotte without it. It doesn't apply to Harry though unless she changes it. Once HM passes and Charles takes over then then Harry's kids would automatically get the HRCH title. But you are right, I assume that is very much up to Harry and Meghan in the end regardless.

 

[Countessmeout]

As I recall Philip attended K Hahn's school before it moved to Scotland?

Yes, he attended Schule Schloss Salem, which was run by Kurt Hahn in Baden-Wurrtenberg, Germany. Kurt Hahn founded the school with the financial support of Prince Maximillian of Baden, the father in law of Philip's sister Theodora. Philip was able to attend it for free because of his brother in law. He spent 2 terms there but eventually went to Gordonstoun.

I’m rooting for Windsor- knowing it’s a long shot due to it’s history but still rooting.

More then a long shot, more chance of man colonizing Mars in 20 years. There is no chance the queen will recreate that title in her life time. Too many memories of her Uncle.

 

[Missjersey]

yes, he attended schule schloss salem, which was run by kurt hahn in baden-wurrtenberg, germany. Kurt hahn founded the school with the financial support of prince maximillian of baden, the father in law of philip's sister theodora. Philip was able to attend it for free because of his brother in law. He spent 2 terms there but eventually went to gordonstoun.



More then a long shot, more chance of man colonizing mars in 20 years. There is no chance the queen will recreate that title in her life time. Too many memories of her uncle.

jeepers! Jeepers!

 

[Osipi]

I think I better book my ticket now for colonization on Mars. I'd really like to be the first person to have their ashes scattered on Mars.

It does still remain possible that the Queen could choose to create Harry as The Duke of Windsor. If everything I've read is true, the Queen has very fond memories of her Uncle David. What happened with the abdication was a horror for the monarchy but I think she'd be wise enough to know that it was David, himself, that brought that about and doesn't make the title Duke of Windsor *unlucky* by any means.

I still don't think it'll happen in the Queen's or even Charles' lifetime but the possibility that it *could* happen does exist.

 

[Missjersey]

Well my gut thinks it’ll be Sussex. However, OT I’m always curious if Earl of Wessex will get DoE as promised should HM go first (not trying to sound morbid)

 

[O-H Anglophile]

I’m rooting for Windsor- knowing it’s a long shot due to it’s history but still rooting.

I really hope not. It conjures up a lot of bad stuff.

 

[Pranter]

Yes I think Edward with become the DoE either way.

I was thinking that too Osipi, the Queen was reported to have warm feelings toward her Uncle and got along with him/Wallis. So...I'm still not discounting the idea totally. I just think it would be very neat for them to be the D&D of Windsor..they both love Windsor and are even marrying there....so....


LaRae

 

[cepe]

No chance of Windsor IMO. There is something off about HMQ deciding to give a young man about to marry an American woman (with your blessing) the same title that was given to your unlamented uncle who married an American woman without anyones blessing.

I've noticed that a lot of overseas posters are concerned about SusSEX
Don't be - this country has managed for over 1000 years with Wessex, Essex, and Sussex.

A couple of tabloids might make a joke about it for 24 hours and then it will go away. I don't remember it being an issue for Edward being made Earl of Wessex.

EDIT: British pronounce it Sussix

 

[Countessmeout]

I think I better book my ticket now for colonization on Mars. I'd really like to be the first person to have their ashes scattered on Mars.

It does still remain possible that the Queen could choose to create Harry as The Duke of Windsor. If everything I've read is true, the Queen has very fond memories of her Uncle David. What happened with the abdication was a horror for the monarchy but I think she'd be wise enough to know that it was David, himself, that brought that about and doesn't make the title Duke of Windsor *unlucky* by any means.

I still don't think it'll happen in the Queen's or even Charles' lifetime but the possibility that it *could* happen does exist.

While almost all titles have a bad history, choosing a bad history that there are people living today remember in a first hand basis is another matter. She may have adored her uncle, but his choices caused long lasting affects for her and her family, especially her dad, and the country.

Windsor was chosen for a reason for Edward. It was a new title. They didn't want to give away an old traditional title to Edward considering what happened. Gives even more credence to the belief, that if anyone ever remakes the title it will be George or further down who does.

It is said time heals all wounds. Don't see enough time having passed.


Edward will be DOE, even if the queen went first. He would just have to wait longer. When it merges with the throne with Charles, it will be recreated for Edward. Charles will honor his mother's wishes on that.

 

[Pranter]

A friend of mine from the upper Midwest moved to the east coast (VA) and ran into all those quaint towns (Suffolk etc) ...it took her forever to understand what they were saying and that it wasn't an dirty word!

LaRae

 

[cmsteepy]

Ok this is really interesting info....I'm a fan of Clarence as the pick so I'm all for it!


LaRae

The more I read on this subject in this thread about the perceptions of the Clarence title, the less concerned I am becoming. The negative connotations of former holders of the Clarence title were no more or less troublesome than any other former ducal title holder. When I voted in the poll, I voted for Sussex simply because I felt it's reputation was less tarnished, even though I was making the case for Clarence. Now, I don't feel the same way. Can I change my vote?

 

[Pranter]

I kept pointing that out early on...all the titles have something negative connected to them. Clarence isn't any worse than the rest.


LaRae

 

[cepe]

The more I read on this subject in this thread about the perceptions of the Clarence title, the less concerned I am becoming. The negative connotations of former holders of the Clarence title were no more or less troublesome than any other former ducal title holder. When I voted in the poll, I voted for Sussex simply because I felt it's reputation was less tarnished, even though I was making the case for Clarence. Now, I don't feel the same way. Can I change my vote?

I accept what you say but with one caveat. That is if the negatives are within living memory. So that's why I do not think Windsor will happen.

If Clarence is the choice then media will play with it for 48 hours and then the noise will go away. It cant be any worse than choosing a wedding day that is an anniversary of the beheading of Anne Boleyn by Henry or the one and only time England was declared a Republic (commonwealth).

 

[Somebody]

IIRC the letters were changed when Kate was pregnant to allow the children to all have the HRH title. Only George would have had it, not Charlotte without it. It doesn't apply to Harry though unless she changes it. Once HM passes and Charles takes over then then Harry's kids would automatically get the HRCH title. But you are right, I assume that is very much up to Harry and Meghan in the end regardless.

Exactly!

Not sure whether you were replying to my post. I was referring to the situation before the LPs (by George V) that were amended by the queen.

King George VI was born as the second son of the second son of the eldest son, but still he was born a prince (albeit a highness and not a royal highness). Yet, as his uncle died before his birth (otherwise his parents wouldn't have married as his mother was destined to be his uncle's bride), so, in a way his position at birth was more comparable to that of Charlotte and Cambridge #3. Nonetheless, other male-line great-grandchildren of (former) monarchs also were highnesses and prince(sse)s - for example, prince Alastait of Connaught, great-grandson of Victoria. Although I don't expect the queen to return to this system that was abandoned by her grandfather - as the children of the Dukes of Gloucester and Kent and prince Michael aren't princes and princesses.

Under current rules, Harry and Meghan' s children would be born lord and lady - if born during the queen's reign; and with the exception of their eldest son who will use Harry's secondary title (assuming he will be created a royal duke with secondary titles)?

 

[Somebody]

Well my gut thinks it’ll be Sussex. However, OT I’m always curious if Earl of Wessex will get DoE as promised should HM go first (not trying to sound morbid)

What do you mean by 'if the queen goes first'? There is no scenario in which the queen will be the one to give the title to Edward. It has to be Charles (or William or George) as the title only becomes available if it merges with the crown which happens when Charles (or his successor) ascend the throne.

If Phillip passes first, Charles - as his eldest son- becomes the new Duke of Edinburgh.
If the queen passes first, Phillip remains the Duke of Edinburgh.
In both cases the title becomes avsilable to be granted to Edward when both have passed away (and either Charles, William or George is king - if Charlotte would be queen, the title would pass on to either Harry (if Cambridge #3 is a girl) or to Cambridge #3 (if a boy).

However, that's going off-topic as there is another topic for the Duke of Edinburgh title.

 

[Pranter]

I accept what you say but with one caveat. That is if the negatives are within living memory. So that's why I do not think Windsor will happen.

If Clarence is the choice then media will play with it for 48 hours and then the noise will go away. It cant be any worse than choosing a wedding day that is an anniversary of the beheading of Anne Boleyn by Henry or the one and only time England was declared a Republic (commonwealth).

Most of the folks who were alive during David's situation are of very advanced ages. So that living memory will most likely cease to exist within 10 years or less.


LaRae

 

[Countessmeout]

Most of the folks who were alive during David's situation are of very advanced ages. So that living memory will most likely cease to exist within 10 years or less.


LaRae

Charles and Anne were both alive for the death of their grandfather and their mother's coronation. And while they don't have the same memories, as they were small children, it still influenced their lives. Considering Harry will be the last dukedom in the next 10 years, its not really a matter. By the time George marries, he will most likely be POW (if he marries in his 30's or late 20s like his parents which is becoming more common). Perhaps William will see fit to use the title for his second son if baby Cambridge 3 is a boy. For now there are plenty of people who remember Edward and his escapades.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

I agree with Cepe and Countessmeout. I think the fact that Windsor title was a new creation for a specific man in a specific situation and the comparisons that would be drawn if re-used for Harry would be negative. It hasn't even been 100 years. I would say "living memory" would include stories told directly by those who remember events--so children and grandchildren of those alive at the time.

 

[Missjersey]

What do you mean by 'if the queen goes first'? There is no scenario in which the queen will be the one to give the title to Edward. It has to be Charles (or William or George) as the title only becomes available if it merges with the crown which happens when Charles (or his successor) ascend the throne.

If Phillip passes first, Charles - as his eldest son- becomes the new Duke of Edinburgh.
If the queen passes first, Phillip remains the Duke of Edinburgh.
In both cases the title becomes avsilable to be granted to Edward when both have passed away (and either Charles, William or George is king - if Charlotte would be queen, the title would pass on to either Harry (if Cambridge #3 is a girl) or to Cambridge #3 (if a boy).

However, that's going off-topic as there is another topic for the Duke of Edinburgh title.

Thanks for explaining.

 

[Ish]

Windsor isn’t going to be an option. In all likelihood, Windsor will never be an option again unless another monarch abdicates. It’s a title that has only ever been used once in British history and has no positive associations. Seriously, no Royal is going to want to be given the title of the man associated with Nazis who gave up the throne for a woman who was deemed unacceptable to be Queen. It certainly isn’t going to be recreated for a man whose fiancée is a divorced American - the parallels just open things up for a criticism that won’t go away.

Clarence and Sussex may not have the most cheerful of histories, but they’re longer and older histories that most people really don’t know or care about. The media might have fun dredging up the rumours that Albert Victor was Jack the Ripper or that George Plantagenet drowned in a butt of wine for a day or two, but that’ll quickly be forgotten.

 

[cepe]

Most of the folks who were alive during David's situation are of very advanced ages. So that living memory will most likely cease to exist within 10 years or less.


LaRae

Its is certainly within the living memory of the person who would grant the Dukedom.

Non starter. Its Clarence or Sussex or something new!

 

[cmsteepy]

Its is certainly within the living memory of the person who would grant the Dukedom.

Non starter. Its Clarence or Sussex or something new!

Based on Sunday’s discussion, which was excellent, cepe summarizes it well and for speculation purposes I believe we should accept the following conclusions:

Windsor is out, it’s a non-starter.
The top 2 likely candidates are Clarence and Sussex or;
Something new!

What if we explored that third option, something new? What could it be?

Borrowing a quote from post #358 in this thread;
“When evaluating the list from the Heptarchy, most are in use. Kent and Wessex by the House of Windsor, Northumbria by the House of Percy, Essex by the House of Capell, East Anglia and its geographic subdivisions are held by the Houses of Howard or Windsor. Mercia could be argued that there are geographic opportunities. . .”

We should be able to consider options from the geographic breakdown of the former Kingdom of Mercia. Following are the list of counties within the former Kingdom. Some of these names we will recognize as existing or former ducal or earldom titles;

Oxford, former Earldom.
Buckingham, former Dukedom and Earldom.
Bedford, current non-royal Dukedom.
Northampton, former Earldom.
Rutland, former Dukedom and Earldom
Leicester, former Earldom.
Warwick, former Dukedom and Earldom
Worcester, current Earldom.
Hereford, former Dukedom and Earldom.
Gloucester, current royal Dukedom.
Shropshire
Stafford, former Earldom.
Cheshire
Derby, former Earldom.
Nottingham, former Earldom.
Lincoln, former Earldom.

Now remember, we are looking for a “traditional” royal ducal title. We can eliminate some of these immediately because they are dukedoms currently in use (i.e., Gloucester), or never been associated with a title (i.e., Shropshire or Cheshire), or they are titles generally granted to non-royals, which is almost everything else. None of the other names on the list jump out to me as traditional enough. Not that something brand new couldn’t be granted to Prince Harry, but I just don’t think there is a strong likelihood which is why Clarence and Sussex should still top all of our lists. If it is something new, it will likely be a geographic name outside of the former Kingdom of Mercia and have royal connections i.e. Cumberland or Connaught, neither of which sound very exciting.

 

[Ish]

Cumberland and Connaught are not new or available though.

Cumberland has been used 5 times previously (for Prince Rupert (brother of Sophia of Hanover), Prince George of Denmark (husband of Queen Anne), Prince William (son of George II), Prince Henry (son of Frederick, Prince of Wales), and Prince Ernest Augustus, later King of Hanover (son of George III). It is not currently used by Ernest Augustus’s descendants, but could be claimed by the current successor (also named Ernst Augustus) if he desired to.

Connaught was created for Queen Victoria’s third son, Prince Alfred, and later inherited by Alfred’s grandson, Alastair, and is now unavailable to be created as Connaught is in the Republic of Ireland, not the UK.