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View Poll Results: What Dukedom will Prince Harry receive upon marriage?
Duke of Clarence 63 25.71%
Duke of Sussex 112 45.71%
Duke of Kendal 8 3.27%
Duke of Ross 8 3.27%
Duke of Hereford 6 2.45%
Duke of Windsor 13 5.31%
Duke of Buckingham 8 3.27%
Something 'New' (Please specify) 8 3.27%
An Earldom (Please specify) 4 1.63%
Nothing - he and Meghan will remain Prince and Princess Henry of Wales 9 3.67%
Other (Please specify) 6 2.45%
Voters: 245. You may not vote on this poll

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  #741  
Old 05-12-2018, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by JuliannaVictoria View Post
Yes, you are probably right. What is your guess for the title if you don't mind me asking?
The most likely choices are Sussex or Clarence.

As I said before, I personally prefer Albany and see no reason to avoid using it because of the potential German claimants, first because it is unclear whether they actually have a legitimate legal claim to the title or not, and, second, because they are unlikely to make a claim anyway after 100 years have already passed since their ancestor was deprived of the title.
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  #742  
Old 05-12-2018, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
The most likely choices are Sussex or Clarence.

As I said before, I personally prefer Albany and see no reason to avoid using it because of the potential German claimants, first because it is unclear whether they actually have a legitimate legal claim to the title or not, and, second, because they are unlikely to make a claim anyway after 100 years have already passed since their ancestor was deprived of the title.
But if that title was passed on to H&M, if there were any German claimants, I'd think that would be when they'd pop up again making a claim.

I'm still hoping for Clarence, though the pessimist in me thinks it will be Sussex. But REALLY hoping for Clarence since both Harry and Meghan can trace ancestry to it.
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  #743  
Old 05-12-2018, 07:27 PM
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I think the queen will want to make it as uncomplicated and simple as possible. No need to take on any possible controversy, by using a title there are claimants to. Even if their right is debated. Plenty of other titles to use.

Clarence really doesn't have that bad of a history. And all titles do. And unlike Windsor, its shady history was not in the lifetime of any royals.

But I do think we will see Sussex.
  #744  
Old 05-12-2018, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
The most likely choices are Sussex or Clarence.

As I said before, I personally prefer Albany and see no reason to avoid using it because of the potential German claimants, first because it is unclear whether they actually have a legitimate legal claim to the title or not, and, second, because they are unlikely to make a claim anyway after 100 years have already passed since their ancestor was deprived of the title.
I think I've read somewhere that nowadays there's an unofficial rule that without a clear, agnatic heir applications regarding titles in abeyance aren't recognised after more than a 100 years after the passing of the last holder.
  #745  
Old 05-12-2018, 10:11 PM
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Strictly speaking, the Albany title isn't in abeyance. The last duke was stripped of the title by the Titles Deprivation Act. The Act gives his heirs the right to petition the Crown for a reinstatement and doesn't specify a deadline.
  #746  
Old 05-12-2018, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
I think I've read somewhere that nowadays there's an unofficial rule that without a clear, agnatic heir applications regarding titles in abeyance aren't recognised after more than a 100 years after the passing of the last holder.
Abeyance is a different matter then Albanny. Its when there is no one clear heir to a title. It doesn't happen very often, as is usually only the case when a man dies with no sons, and his heirs are female. Unlike sons, when the eldest son is the designated heir, with English peerages, there is no designated heir among daughters. If the peerage can be inherited by a woman, all daughters have equal claim. Either the other claimants die out, or one of the claimants appeals to the monarch, to have their claim recognized. It doesn't happen in Scotland, because with Scottish peerages, eldest daughter is recognized as the designated heir, if no son exists.

And yes there has been a move for these claims to be eliminated after 100 years.

Albanny was deprived of the title. Which is also different from foreifeiture. Deprivation allows for the male line heir to still lay claim to the title. Forefeiture would mean the title would be extinct and could be reused. There is no time limit on deprived titles.
  #747  
Old 05-12-2018, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
Abeyance is a different matter then Albanny. Its when there is no one clear heir to a title. It doesn't happen very often, as is usually only the case when a man dies with no sons, and his heirs are female. Unlike sons, when the eldest son is the designated heir, with English peerages, there is no designated heir among daughters. If the peerage can be inherited by a woman, all daughters have equal claim. Either the other claimants die out, or one of the claimants appeals to the monarch, to have their claim recognized. It doesn't happen in Scotland, because with Scottish peerages, eldest daughter is recognized as the designated heir, if no son exists.

And yes there has been a move for these claims to be eliminated after 100 years.

Albanny was deprived of the title. Which is also different from foreifeiture. Deprivation allows for the male line heir to still lay claim to the title. Forefeiture would mean the title would be extinct and could be reused. There is no time limit on deprived titles.

But there may actually be no legitimate heir to the title to make the claim. In fact, before 2015, apparently there were none. Now, it remains to be seen if any potential heirs have been legitimized by the Succession to the Crown Act or not. Their case seems weak to me and, in any case, as I said, they are not making it and don't see to be interested in the title.
  #748  
Old 05-13-2018, 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
But there may actually be no legitimate heir to the title to make the claim. In fact, before 2015, apparently there were none. Now, it remains to be seen if any potential heirs have been legitimized by the Succession to the Crown Act or not. Their case seems weak to me and, in any case, as I said, they are not making it and don't see to be interested in the title.
Some of the heirs are quite young.

Like I said, the queen may just want to avoid a whole mess. There would be constant talk and possible controversy if she grants that title. Why would she want to pile that on her grandson? While the title has a nice sound, its not the only title out there. And not the only one with historical importance left.
  #749  
Old 05-15-2018, 08:13 AM
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A bit 'late in the day', two Welsh Titles occur to me.. The Duchy of Powis and the Duchy of Montgomery have been lying dormant since the time of the Jacobite rebellion ?
  #750  
Old 05-15-2018, 08:34 AM
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I voted for Duke of Sussex simply because I don't expect Harry to be created an Earl. The latter would have my preference.

It could create precedence. The Monarch could create the Heir to the Throne (or his/her Heir) Duke upon his marriage (or possible Duchess for a female Heiress to the Throne) and the other children (only sons, or possibly sons and daughters) of the Monarch and the Heir to the Monarch can be created Earl (or Countess) upon marriage.
  #751  
Old 05-15-2018, 08:41 AM
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Are there any front runners for the earldom and barony that Prince Harry will probably receive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
Some of the heirs are quite young.

Like I said, the queen may just want to avoid a whole mess. There would be constant talk and possible controversy if she grants that title. Why would she want to pile that on her grandson? While the title has a nice sound, its not the only title out there. And not the only one with historical importance left.
I agree that, for the reasons you gave, the queen will avoid conferring the Dukedom of Albany on Prince Harry, but for the same reasons, the German relatives will likewise avoid pursuing a claim. Since it is not clear if they are legitimate (in the United Kingdom), they also would be confronted with a controversial legal mess if they attempted to claim the title. In any event, I'm not sure German citizens would even be aware that the Titles Deprivation Act allows British titles to be reclaimed.
  #752  
Old 05-15-2018, 08:44 AM
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Do we know when his title will be announced can't remember if Williams was announced the day before or morning of wedding?
  #753  
Old 05-15-2018, 08:46 AM
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Do we know when his title will be announced can't remember if Williams was announced the day before or morning of wedding?
The morning of the wedding.
  #754  
Old 05-15-2018, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Princess Robijn View Post
I voted for Duke of Sussex simply because I don't expect Harry to be created an Earl. The latter would have my preference.

It could create precedence. The Monarch could create the Heir to the Throne (or his/her Heir) Duke upon his marriage (or possible Duchess for a female Heiress to the Throne) and the other children (only sons, or possibly sons and daughters) of the Monarch and the Heir to the Monarch can be created Earl (or Countess) upon marriage.
The heir to the throne is already automatically a duke (the Duke of Cornwall) and is often also the Prince of Wales. The innovation would be a female heiress becoming also Princess of Wales and Duchess of Cornwall, in line with the titles for example of Princess of Asturias in Spain and now Princess of Orange in the Netherlands.

As I stated before, my personal preference is to do away with royal dukedoms rather than extending them to princesses too in the name of gender equality. The heir could have a special title such as Prince/Princess of Wales and all other members of the Royal House (i.e. HRHs) should be just "Prince/Princess xxx of the United Kingdom". If they want to keep royal dukedoms, make them personal, life peerages, and not hereditary peerages as they are today.
  #755  
Old 05-15-2018, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
The heir to the throne is already automatically a duke (the Duke of Cornwall) and is often also the Prince of Wales. The innovation would be a female heiress becoming also Princess of Wales and Duchess of Cornwall, in line with the titles for example of Princess of Asturias in Spain and now Princess of Orange in the Netherlands.

As I stated before, my personal preference is to do away with royal dukedoms rather than extending them to princesses too in the name of gender equality. The heir could have a special title such as Prince/Princess of Wales and all other members of the Royal House (i.e. HRHs) should be just "Prince/Princess xxx of the United Kingdom". If they want to keep royal dukedoms, make them personal, life peerages, and not hereditary peerages as they are today.
That would also be my preference. I think sons and daughters should be treated alike and there's already a shortage of titles for sons, let alone for daughters. So either do away with titles completely or make grant them for life only, so eventually they revert back to the Crown and can be used again.

Veering OT a bit, while the son and heir automatically becomes Duke of Cornwall, legislation would be required to allow a daughter and heir to become Duchess since the original charter restricts the title to sons. Just as Andrew's, William's, and Edward's titles are restricted to sons and Harry's probably will be too.

A Charter of 1337
  #756  
Old 05-15-2018, 09:39 AM
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That would also be my preference. I think sons and daughters should be treated alike and there's already a shortage of titles for sons, let alone for daughters. So either do away with titles completely or make grant them for life only, so eventually they revert back to the Crown and can be used again.

Veering OT a bit, while the son and heir automatically becomes Duke of Cornwall, legislation would be required to allow a daughter and heir to become Duchess since the original charter restricts the title to sons. Just as Andrew's, William's, and Edward's titles are restricted to sons and Harry's probably will be too.

A Charter of 1337
I think with the eldest child now being the heir, no matter what sex, that eventually the Duke of Cornwall charter will have to be changed to allow for a Duchess of Cornwall (or a female Duke--as the Queen is the Duke of Lancaster.) But not really an issue unless/until George has a girl as his first child. This is a different situation than titles that pass down and eventually are no longer Royal Dukedoms.
  #757  
Old 05-15-2018, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Princess Robijn View Post
I voted for Duke of Sussex simply because I don't expect Harry to be created an Earl. The latter would have my preference.

It could create precedence. The Monarch could create the Heir to the Throne (or his/her Heir) Duke upon his marriage (or possible Duchess for a female Heiress to the Throne) and the other children (only sons, or possibly sons and daughters) of the Monarch and the Heir to the Monarch can be created Earl (or Countess) upon marriage.
The heir is already the Duke of Cornwall (among other titles), so it doesn't make sense to give the heir another dukedom. Only in some generations it might apply to the heir of the heir (if they wanted to they could even establish one dukedom that will be reserved for this position) if they marry while their grandparent is still monarch - but that's also for a very short while. So, that solution would in practice come down to abolishing royal dukedoms. I'd rather keep the royal dukedoms for the children/siblings of monarchs.
  #758  
Old 05-15-2018, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile View Post
I think with the eldest child now being the heir, no matter what sex, that eventually the Duke of Cornwall charter will have to be changed to allow for a Duchess of Cornwall (or a female Duke--as the Queen is the Duke of Lancaster.) But not really an issue unless/until George has a girl as his first child. This is a different situation than titles that pass down and eventually are no longer Royal Dukedoms.
Yes, but it's another example of a tradition that will need to change. Once Charlotte becomes an adult, or marries, the BRF will have to decide if they want to carry on as before (only sons get titles) or if it's time to begin treating royal children equally regardless of sex.
  #759  
Old 05-15-2018, 10:15 AM
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Yes, but it's another example of a tradition that will need to change. Once Charlotte becomes an adult, or marries, the BRF will have to decide if they want to carry on as before (only sons get titles) or if it's time to begin treating royal children equally regardless of sex.
But if Charlotte remains the only daughter of William they can do as before and she will be created Princess Royal. But i think they and the goverment whoch has to change the Charter should decide if a future female Heiress will also become Duchess of Crownwall etc. and will be created Princess of Wales but probably they will not do this until there will be a female Heiress.
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  #760  
Old 05-15-2018, 10:26 AM
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But "Princess Royal" is a style, not a title like Duke of York or Earl of Wessex. So if Charlotte ends up as Princess Royal while her brother Louis is a duke, she still isn't getting equal treatment.

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