Possible Dukedom for Harry and Meghan

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by Gawin

I like Clarence too and agree it shouldn't be eliminated due do any previous associations. As cmsteepy points out it's one of the original ducal titles and has been associated with the Royal Family since the 14th century. Sussex didn't become a royal title until 1801.

One possible reason why Clarence might not be an option: Queen Victoria's son Leopold was created Duke of Albany, Earl of Clarence, and Baron Arklow in 1881. That's why the Queen gave her grandson Albert Victor a double title - Duke of Clarence and Avondale - when he was made a duke in 1890. It was considered necessary to avoid having both a Duke of Clarence and an Earl of Clarence.

As discussed earlier, Leopold's son Charles Edward, the 2nd Duke of Albany (and Earl of Clarence) lost his British titles due to the Titles Deprivation Act but his descendants may have the right to request a reinstatement. I don't think this would ever happen, but it's the reason Albany will probably be off-limits for Harry, and possibly Clarence too.

I don’t see a problem with a dukedom and an earldom sharing the same territorial designation. There are other examples like that in the British peerage.

Also, double territorial designations for royal peerages ( like Cletence and Avondale ) were not unusual in the Victorian and Edwardian ages. The Duke of Connaught for example was also Duke of Strathearn, and there is also an earldom of Strathearn now held by Prince William BTW.

[Kataryn]

Originally Posted by Mbruno

I would pick it too if it were available, but, unfortunately, as we have beeen discussing for the past two pages, it is not.

Personally, I think Parliament should impose a "statute of limitations" on claims under the Titles Deprivation Act. Never mind whether the Saxe-Coburg descendants are legitimate or not under British law; if a claim in a specific context like that has not been made in 100 years or so, the right to petition should expire.

Plus they are Germans and Germany does not recognize titles, not even foreign ones as a means to make a difference to "normal" citizens. So why should anyone apply to get a title they have no use of, because AFAIK Britain does not recognize noble titles when the holder is not British. Or do they?

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by Kataryn

Plus they are Germans and Germany does not recognize titles, not even foreign ones as a means to make a difference to "normal" citizens. So why should anyone apply to get a title they have no use of, because AFAIK Britain does not recognize noble titles when the holder is not British. Or do they?

The UK does not incorporate foreign titles as Belgium or the Netherlands do, but. a non-UK citizen can hold a British peerage.. There are a few Americans for example who have peerages even though the US properly does not recognize titles of nobility.

[Gawin]

It was seen as a problem when Albert Victor was created a Duke, hence the double title:

"The Dukedom of Avondale, a Scottish title held by George II before he became Prince of Wales, had been added on the advice of the Garter King-of-Arms because the Earldom of Clarence was already a subsidiary title of the Duke of Albany."

Source: James Pope-Hennessy, Queen Mary, 1867-1953 (George Allen and Unwin, 1959), p. 194.

British peers do not share the same territorial designation. When the former Edward VIII was created Duke of Windsor, the Earl of Plymouth already held the subsidiary title Viscount Windsor but that was based on a family surname (Windsor), not a territorial designation.

Prince William was able to become Earl of Strathearn because the last Duke of Connaught and Strathearn died in 1943. Otherwise that territorial designation would have been off-limits.

Given the dearth of available titles with royal associations the Queen might be more flexible when it comes to suspended subsidiary titles. I'd rather see the Queen reuse Clarence for Harry than come up with a "new" title like Wessex. I also agree with other forum members: with the media already assuming Harry will get Sussex, it would be funny to see the Queen tweak their noses by giving him Clarence instead.

[Pranter]

Where does the media come up with this anyway? Do they think Sussex the only title available?


LaRae

[FashionMaven]

Originally Posted by Pranter

Where does the media come up with this anyway? Do they think Sussex the only title available?


LaRae

Maybe they're doing the same speculation we are and thinking it's the only good one left?

I'm still hoping really hard for Clarence.

Will Harry get any other titles other than Duke? Like Count, etc.?

[jacqui24]

Originally Posted by FashionMaven

Maybe they're doing the same speculation we are and thinking it's the only good one left?

I'm still hoping really hard for Clarence.

Will Harry get any other titles other than Duke? Like Count, etc.?

Likely also an earldom and barony.

[wyevale]

Like Count, etc.?

There are no 'Counts' in Britain, the anglicised version of that rank is Earl [illustrated by the fact that an Earls wife is a Countess...]
Harry will get an Earldom, and barony too.. the first so his potential eldest Son has a title to use, and the second so his eldest Grandson does too.

[Pranter]

Originally Posted by FashionMaven

Maybe they're doing the same speculation we are and thinking it's the only good one left?

I'm still hoping really hard for Clarence.

Will Harry get any other titles other than Duke? Like Count, etc.?

Me too...been a fan for Clarence since day one...and even more when I read about the history posted above (previous page)!

Yes he could get other titles as well.


LaRae

[Gawin]

Originally Posted by Pranter

Me too...been a fan for Clarence since day one...and even more when I read about the history posted above (previous page)!

Yes he could get other titles as well.


LaRae

You can also find factual information about the Dukes of Clarence in The Complete Peerage, but cmsteepy's account had more flair.

https://archive.org/stream/completep...e/256/mode/2up

[principessa]

Sorry if I might go off-topic now: But how clear was the dukedom of William before his marriage for you? And is it now comparable to the possible dukedom of Harry?

[Gawin]

Cambridge, Sussex, and Clarence were bandied about in the media for Willliam.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...-revealed.html

Cambridge was an excellent choice because it had many associations with the BRF, especially Queen Mary. She was the granddaughter of Adolphus Frederick, Duke of Cambridge, and the sister of Prince Adolphus of Teck who (during WWI) took Cambridge as his surname and was created Marquess of Cambridge. His son George the 2nd and last Marquess died in 1981.

[Jacknch]

Indeed, the title suggestions for William were no clearer back then than they are for Harry now.

There seems to be a slight shift here on TRF recently from Sussex to Clarence - if it is a choice between the two, then my preference would be for Clarence but I have a feeling it will be Sussex!

[wyevale]

Sussex is a widely known, and rather beautiful County, whereas Clare [from which Clarence derives] is a highly obscure place , a village, or [at a pinch] small town, unknown to pretty much everyone here [let alone abroad]..

[Stefan]

Cambridge was alo rumoured for Prince Edward before his Wedding if i remember it right. and what he got in the End was a surprise because everysone expetced him to become a Duke.

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by Stefan

Cambridge was alo rumoured for Prince Edward before his Wedding if i remember it right. and what he got in the End was a surprose because everysone expetced him to become a Duke.

Maybe Harry will also get only an earldom and surprise everyone.

[Somebody]

An important difference is that Harry's title is for life and expected to be passed down to the next generation(s) while William's title is temporary.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by wyevale

Sussex is a widely known, and rather beautiful County, whereas Clare [from which Clarence derives] is a highly obscure place , a village, or [at a pinch] small town, unknown to pretty much everyone here [let alone abroad]..

Is that of any importance? What were the bonds of Prince Philippos Andreas of Greece and Denmark with the beautiful city of Edinburgh? What was (if there was any) the relation between William and Cambridge that "delivered" him that Dukedom? I doubt the beauty or obscurity of a place had any relecance in handing out dukedoms.

[wyevale]

^ Edinburgh and Cambridge are RENOWNED the World over...'Clare' *not so much*..

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Mbruno

Maybe Harry will also get only an earldom and surprise everyone.

I think Edward was a special case because it was the wish of his parents that he will once get Edinbrugh which was not possible to give him om his Wedding Day because of the special circumsdances.