Possible Dukedom for Harry and Meghan

[Osipi]

One thing I've noticed in this discussion that we perhaps are overlooking is that Denville stated "there are no royal dukedoms with Irish names". The more I think about it, she is correct. If I'm not mistaken, royal dukedoms are primarily English. Other attached titles to the royal dukedom are usually Earls and Barons with the exception of Charles who is also the Duke of Rothesay and Prince Philip who is the Duke of Edinburgh.

So, it seems that a royal dukedom with an Irish name is most likely out of the question.

 

[Gawin]

One thing I've noticed in this discussion that we perhaps are overlooking is that Denville stated "there are no royal dukedoms with Irish names". The more I think about it, she is correct. If I'm not mistaken, royal dukedoms are primarily English. Other attached titles to the royal dukedom are usually Earls and Barons with the exception of Charles who is also the Duke of Rothesay and Prince Philip who is the Duke of Edinburgh.

So, it seems that a royal dukedom with an Irish name is most likely out of the question.

Yes, it seems you are correct. There hasn't been a royal dukedom with an Irish name since Queen Victoria created her son Arthur Duke of Connaught [Irish name] and Strathearn [Scottish] in 1874.

When the Queen made Andrew a duke she copied her father's titles as much as possible: Duke of York [English], Earl of Inverness [Scottish], Baron Killyleagh [Northern Ireland]. Her father had been Baron Killarney, but because Killarney is in the Republic of Ireland, she substituted Killyleagh for Andrew.

When she made William a duke she followed the same format: Duke of Cambridge [English], Earl of Strathearn [Scottish], and Baron Carrickfergus [Northern Ireland].

Maybe she'll use the same template for Harry.

 

[Denville]

One thing I've noticed in this discussion that we perhaps are overlooking is that Denville stated "there are no royal dukedoms with Irish names". The more I think about it, she is correct. If I'm not mistaken, royal dukedoms are primarily English. Other attached titles to the royal dukedom are usually Earls and Barons with the exception of Charles who is also the Duke of Rothesay and Prince Philip who is the Duke of Edinburgh.

So, it seems that a royal dukedom with an Irish name is most likely out of the question.

yes of course. THere's usually an English dukedom and the subsidiary titles honour Wales, Scotland and N Ireland. The only one was Connaught and it would be absolutely inconceiveable for Q ELiz to give that title again. it is in a foreign country......and one which has had a less than harmonious relationship wit the British crown.

 

[Dalriada]

There are still Irish peerages, but there will be no Royal dukedoms with an Irish name..

Yes, dukes with an Irish name are thin on the ground as a current Duke who has his seat in Northern Ireland is called something else. The title Duke of Abercorn is a title in the Peerage of Ireland but it refers to Abercorn, West Lothian.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hamilton,_5th_Duke_of_Abercorn

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I realize that the Albany title is in abeyance with prior claimant rights.

Albany simply isn't available.

The Duke of Albanny has 13 living heirs, and many of whom are young enough to add to that number. Unless some horrible tragedy strikes and wipes them all out, the title will not be issued again.

As per Marlene Eilers Koenig, none of the descendants of Carl Eduard, second Duke of Albany, sought the approval required by the Royal Marriages Act. Is there evidence suggesting they did?

Royal Musings: Royal Marriages Act - and who was actually eligible?

Assuming they did not, the grandchildren of Carl Eduard and their descendants are legally illegitimate from the British point of view.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Duke of Connaught/Connacht is out of the question ,the Southern Irish titles are all now extinct ans Southern Ireland is a republic.

I'm still hoping for Suffolk ,roll on next month.

There are still a number of extant titles from the Republic of Ireland. What won't happen is any new ones or recreations of old ones but those that existed when Eire became a Republic and haven't gone extinct through lack of heirs are still extant.

Duke of Leinster (Viscount Leinster and Lord Kildard)
Marquess of Waterford (Baron Tyrone)
Marquess of Donefall (Lord Fisherwick, Lord Templemore)
Marquess of Headfort (Lord Kenlis)
Marquess of Sligo (Lord Monteagle)
Marquess of Ely (Lord Loftus)
Marquess of Conygham (Lord Minster)

et al.

The full list of extant Irish Titles - the list of Earls on down is quite extensive. Some are in Northern Ireland but most are in the Republic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peerage_of_Ireland#Extant_Irish_peerages

This list includes those titles which aren't used as the substantive title as the holder has a higher substantive title e.g. Earl of Mornington held by the Duke of Wellington

These titles still exist and will exist until there are no legitimate heirs.

 

[Madame Verseau]

I don't understand why to consider Connaught if it's not based in Northern Ireland. I think it's Sussex.

 

[Rudolph]

Another option is to create an entirely new dukedom. It probably won’t happen but it would be interesting.

 

[cepe]

I have ALWAYS wanted this. Something new

Duke of Frogmore
Duke of Mercia
Duke of Cumbria (that's not Cumberland) - and I'm liking this!

 

[Countessmeout]

I don't see them making a dukedom based off the name of a house (a structure and not a royal house). Windsor and Buckingham were named for the family (Windsor) and the area (Buckingham) not the palace with the name. Dukedoms also tend to be a larger area of land, like a county.

But a new title, like Duke of Cumbria would be a good idea.

Even if Albany may not be able to be claimed, or may be, there is too much question. Like Windsor, I don't think they will pick a controversial title.

When the Queen made Andrew a duke she copied her father's titles as much as possible: Duke of York [English], Earl of Inverness [Scottish], Baron Killyleagh [Northern Ireland]. Her father had been Baron Killarney, but because Killarney is in the Republic of Ireland, she substituted Killyleagh for Andrew.

When she made William a duke she followed the same format: Duke of Cambridge [English], Earl of Strathearn [Scottish], and Baron Carrickfergus [Northern Ireland].

Maybe she'll use the same template for Harry.

We should be expecting three titles, that has been the pattern for generations. The exception being Edward, but that is because his is temporary. Their titles reflect three of the regions of the kingdom.

either England, Scotland and N Ireland:
William: Cambridge (England), Strathearn (Scotland), Carrickfergus (NI)
Andrew: York (England) Inverness (Scotland) Killyleagh (NI)
DofKent: Kent (England) St Andrews (Scotland) Downpatrick (NI)
DofGloucester: Gloucester (England) Ulster (NI), Culloden (Scotland)

or England, Scotland and Wales:
Philip: Edinburgh (Scotland) Merioneth (Wales) Greenwich (England)
Edward: Wessex (England) Severn (Wales)

Edward will eventually be Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Wessex, Viscount Severn so like his father a title from all three areas. The other exception with them, instead of his third title being Baron, it is Viscount.

With the exception of Gloucester and Edinburgh, the Irish or welsh titles have been Baron.


Something like Duke of Sussex, Earl of Ross, Baron X (northern irish title) is likely

 

[Somebody]

I still like the ring of 'Duke and Duchess of Ross' (especially for this couple) but unfortunately it doesn't seem likely. Creating Harry Earl of Ross would make it an even less likely choice in the future

 

[Lady Nimue]

I have ALWAYS wanted this. Something new.

Duke of Frogmore
Duke of Mercia
Duke of Cumbria (that's not Cumberland) - and I'm liking this!

I agree that something new would be fun, and The Duke and Duchess of Cumbria sounds very elegant. But far more elegant would be The Duke and Duchess of Albany. That one is really growing on me.

 

[Pranter]

I think Albany is one of the ones unable to be used since there are claimants to the title.


LaRae

 

[Gawin]

What are the odds of them getting a completely new designation? Completely new? Created just for them: like the Duke and Duchess of Frogmore, or something.

There are two villages in the UK named California... ?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I think Albany is one of the ones unable to be used since there are claimants to the title.


LaRae

There most likely are not. See these posts.
http://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...o-the-british-throne-44513-2.html#post2085222
Royal Musings: Royal Marriages Act - and who was actually eligible?

 

[Lady Nimue]

There are two villages in the UK named California... ?

Now that would be unique! ? The Duke and Duchess of California. Ha!

 

[Iluvbertie]

I agree that something new would be fun, and The Duke and Duchess of Cumbria sounds very elegant. But far more elegant would be The Duke and Ducess of Albany. That one is really growing on me.

Like Cumberland, Albany is NOT available for regrant as it is covered by the 'Titles' Deprivation Act' and has a number of living claimants.

 

[JR76]

Like Cumberland, Albany is NOT available for regrant as it is covered by the 'Titles' Deprivation Act' and has a number of living claimants.

Yes it was, but as seen in the article by Marlene Koenig the children of Karl Eduard did not have their marriages approved by the British monarch meaning that their descendants had no rights of inheritance of the British title.
For instance Carl XVI Gustav of Sweden isn't in the British line of succession through his mother Sibylla of Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha but because of his grandmother Margaret of Connaught.

 

[loonytick]

Dukedom aside, I'm coming to really hope Harry is given a Welsh subsidiary title. I mean, he's been "Harry Wales" for so much of his life at this point. It would be a nice nod to that to give his family line a lasting (if subtle) connection to Wales.

 

[Osipi]

Aren't we forgetting somebody here? Harry?

What has started to annoy me is that I've seen several articles in the US media that is already putting forth the "fact" that Meghan will be known as "HRH, The Duchess of Sussex" after her marriage.

 

[Gawin]

I personally hope Harry gets the Sussex title but I know what you mean. It's irritating when the media presents speculation as fact and you almost wish he ends up with another title just to show them up.

I agree with loonytick - a Welsh title would be very nice.

Maybe Earl of Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch? ?

 

[Princess Larisa]

What does Sibylla have to do with Harry’s title? Seriously

 

[Gawin]

What does Sibylla have to do with Harry’s title? Seriously

I believe the question arose as to whether Harry could be created Duke of Albany or if the last Duke's descendants still have a claim to that title. Sorry we're getting OT.

 

[Mbruno]

Going back to Harry's possible dukedom, can Charles Edward's descendants still petition to have the title of Duke of Albany reinstated ? If they are considered illegitimate under the RMA, then they shouldn't have any legal claim to the title, should they ? Unless under current legislation, the marriage is retroactively validated, which is not guaranteed.

Besides, there has been no such petition to reinstate the title in over 100 years. It appears a waste to me to leave two perfectly fine royal dukedoms in a limbo waiting for a claim that might never be made and maybe cannot be made.

 

[Ish]

The discussion on whether or not the Saxe-Coburg and Gotha family (among others) are in the line of Succession to the British throne has been moved here. Let's try to keep this thread on the topic of Harry's possible dukedom.

 

[Gawin]

It is possible that the marriages of Charles of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha's descendants might be legal under the Succession to the Crown Act 2013.

Because the Titles Deprivation Act gave descendants of the Dukes of Albany and Cumberland the right to petition for a reinstatement of those titles I don't think the royal family would touch them. The legal issues would need to be worked out first.

 

[Countessmeout]

Other then as a secondary title to York, Albany is more of a Scottish peerage. Its history in the British royals is not as long.

Not that it isn't a great title, but I don't see them deciding to pick up any controversy by using a title with claimants (even if claim is questioned). It seems a pointless debate to take on. There are other titles to consider.

I think we will likely be seeing a Duke of Sussex. It was considered for Edward and William. It seems like it is due to be used.

 

[Gawin]

The title Duke of Albany was used quite frequently by the Stuarts (Scottish royal family), dating back to 1398, so it does in fact have a lengthy association with the British royals. Mary Queen of Scots created her husband Lord Darnley Duke of Albany in 1565 and of course on his death it was inherited by their son, later James VI and I. James created his younger son Charles (later Charles I) Duke of Albany in 1604.

Edinburgh is also a Scottish title so I don't think a Scottish title would be out of the question for Harry. It would be a departure for the Queen who (in terms creating Royal dukedoms) chooses an English place name for the ducal title, a Scottish place name for the earldom, and a Northern Irish place name for the barony.

 

[Countessmeout]

The title Duke of Albany was used quite frequently by the Stuarts (Scottish royal family), dating back to 1398, so it does in fact have a lengthy association with the British royals. Mary Queen of Scots created her husband Lord Darnley Duke of Albany in 1565 and of course on his death it was inherited by their son, later James VI and I. James created his younger son Charles (later Charles I) Duke of Albany in 1604.

Edinburgh is also a Scottish title so I don't think a Scottish title would be out of the question for Harry. It would be a departure for the Queen who (in terms creating Royal dukedoms) chooses an English place name for the ducal title, a Scottish place name for the earldom, and a Northern Irish place name for the barony.

Notice I said it has a long history with the Scottish throne

I am not ruling out a Scottish title. Actually I would be shocked if not one of his titles aren't Scottish.

I am simply saying that I don't see the title Albanny being considered so 'historically significant' that they will take on the debate of whether the title is 'extinct' or not. There are other historical titles out there that don't come with the debate as baggage.

 

[Mbruno]

Notice I said it has a long history with the Scottish throne

I am not ruling out a Scottish title. Actually I would be shocked if not one of his titles aren't Scottish.

I am simply saying that I don't see the title Albanny being considered so 'historically significant' that they will take on the debate of whether the title is 'extinct' or not. There are other historical titles out there that don't come with the debate as baggage.

Considering the recent Scottish independence referendum and everything that has taken place in Scotland since then, I think that a Scottish dukedom would actually be a plus for the RF and a smart move. Unless the Scots see it as pandering, which I doubt. Any Scottish poster here who could comment ?