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  #201  
Old 05-25-2018, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
Tom Markle is not getting his own arms - he’s not a British citizen. The only reason why Meghan is getting one is because she married a British Royal. Had circumstances been different, her father would have gotten the arms, so it looks as if the arms she’s been granted are essentially acting as if her father got them, even though he has not.

Meghan is not at this time a British citizen.
So it does pertain to her citizenship. Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
A reporter is trying to get the answer to that.
When I saw the coat of arms, the first thing I thought is why it is impaled. Then I looked whether her father was granted one, but he was not. I thought I was the only one who noticed it since I couldn't find any article explaining it.
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  #202  
Old 05-25-2018, 12:47 PM
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Does anyone remember if Duchess of Gloucester was granted her own first, and then combined with her husband's? Or is it the same way, and it was just the married one?
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  #203  
Old 05-25-2018, 12:49 PM
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I like this very much. I like the use of the quill as Meghan is a proud calligrapher and laments the loss of pen and paper communication. I read that in her blog or another publication. I cannot remember which, but I liked the message. A true loss in our digitalized world.
  #204  
Old 05-25-2018, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceara09 View Post
When I saw the coat of arms, the first thing I thought is why it is impaled. Then I looked whether her father was granted one, but he was not. I thought I was the only one who noticed it since I couldn't find any article explaining it.
You’re exactly right. If her father wasn’t granted a personal coat of arms there’s nothing to impale. Kate’s family coat of arms was impaled with William’s royal arms.
  #205  
Old 05-25-2018, 12:59 PM
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Well, presumably the College of Arms knows what it's doing. They are the ones who designed the Coat of Arms and released it.
  #206  
Old 05-25-2018, 01:02 PM
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For what it is worth

In English, Scottish and Northern Irish heraldry, a woman may bear arms by inheritance from her father[5] or by grant to herself. When unmarried, she displays her arms on a lozenge (a diamond shape) or on an oval or oval-like shape. Traditionally, a woman does not display her arms on a shield, as the shield originated with knights and warfare, and is thus viewed as fitting for a man, but not a woman.

When married, a woman has the option of uniting her arms with those of her husband in what are called marital arms; their arms are impaled, meaning they are placed side by side in the same shield, with those of the man on the dexter (left, as seen from the front) and those of his wife on the sinister (right, as seen from the front).[6] If one spouse belongs to the higher ranks of an order of chivalry, and is thereby entitled to surround his or her arms with a circlet of the order, it is usual to depict them on two separate shields tilted towards one another, this is termed "accollé

Source wikpedia
  #207  
Old 05-25-2018, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
Tom Markle is not getting his own arms - he’s not a British citizen. The only reason why Meghan is getting one is because she married a British Royal. Had circumstances been different, her father would have gotten the arms, so it looks as if the arms she’s been granted are essentially acting as if her father got them, even though he has not.

Meghan is not at this time a British citizen.





Certain animals get the Crown around their neck instead of on their head - birds, unicorns, etc. The unicorn supporting Harry’s arms also has the crown around its neck.

I suspect it’s an aesthetic thing - if it looks good on the head it goes on the head, but if it doesn’t look as good there it goes around the neck.

I've been looking...yet to find a female CoA with a coronet on the head. I would think at least some of them would have the 'right' animal to warrant a coronet on the head.


LaRae
  #208  
Old 05-25-2018, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Well, presumably the College of Arms knows what it's doing. They are the ones who designed the Coat of Arms and released it.
I am going to go along with this.
  #209  
Old 05-25-2018, 01:11 PM
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Thank you very much Alvinking. Useful info.

Harry doesn't have the Order of the Garter or Thistle etc yet, (Order of Chivalry) and so that's presumably why Meghan's C of A is impaled in the way shown above.

The Duchess of Gloucester may have received hers before marriage, but (as Osipi put it in an earlier post,) the Palace was alive to the Markle family circling around like vultures and so left the issue of the C of A for Meghan until AFTER her marriage.
  #210  
Old 05-25-2018, 01:22 PM
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[QUOTE]or by grant to herself. When unmarried, she displays her arms on a lozenge (a diamond shape) or on an oval or oval-like shape. Traditionally, a woman does not display her arms on a shield, as the shield originated with knights and warfare, and is thus viewed as fitting for a man, but not a woman./QUOTE]

I'm going to take a feminist stance that this should be obsolete because women now do take up arms in warfare. Perhaps that is why we see a difference and Meghan's shield is joined side by side, equally with Harry's.

I have to say that I am pleased with it all.
  #211  
Old 05-25-2018, 01:39 PM
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I noticed that too, but didn't know enough about it to ask intelligent questions.
  #212  
Old 05-25-2018, 01:43 PM
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The unicorn on the Queen's coat of arms, which are the coat of arms of the UK and grace every British passport for example, has the coronet around its neck. If it's good enough for HM's arms then it's good enough for Meghan's (and Kate's and Camilla's).
  #213  
Old 05-25-2018, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Thank you very much Alvinking. Useful info.

Harry doesn't have the Order of the Garter or Thistle etc yet, (Order of Chivalry) and so that's presumably why Meghan's C of A is impaled in the way shown above.

The Duchess of Gloucester may have received hers before marriage, but (as Osipi put it in an earlier post,) the Palace was alive to the Markle family circling around like vultures and so left the issue of the C of A for Meghan until AFTER her marriage.
Ok, I totally understand now. Makes perfect sence to why the Duchess of G. is the way it is. Harry and Meghan are on same level of Chivalry. I thought it was because of the family crest vs. individual thing.

I also think that Mr. Middleton applied for and paid for his family coat of arms. The Markles would not do that. (no offense intended toward them)
  #214  
Old 05-25-2018, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyle View Post
I also think that Mr. Middleton applied for and paid for his family coat of arms. The Markles would not do that. (no offense intended toward them)
Had nothing to do with money. If it comes down to it, Meghan would be able to pay for it.
  #215  
Old 05-25-2018, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacqui24 View Post
Had nothing to do with money. If it comes down to it, Meghan would be able to pay for it.
Oh, my goodness, I agree. I am not implying that Meghan did not apply and pay for the coat of arms for herself.
  #216  
Old 05-25-2018, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyle View Post
Oh, my goodness, I agree. I am not implying that Meghan did not apply and pay for the coat of arms for herself.
I'm not saying you did. Simply that money isn't an issue here either way.
  #217  
Old 05-25-2018, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacqui24 View Post
I'm not saying you did. Simply that money isn't an issue here either way.
Money is no issue. This is about coat of arms. I understand your point. I think. Would you like to continue in DM?
  #218  
Old 05-25-2018, 02:08 PM
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The symbolism is excellent, but [imo] it just isn't visually appealing.

Why are there no martlets, the heraldic bird of the county of Sussex?
  #219  
Old 05-25-2018, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceara09 View Post
Still curious though. Since the Grant of Arms was awarded to the Duchess of Gloucester herself, she can use it as an inescutcheon on top of her husband's coat of arms. But Meghan's was not granted to her father or any family members but her yet it is impaled.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
A reporter is trying to get the answer to that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Harry doesn't have the Order of the Garter or Thistle etc yet, (Order of Chivalry) and so that's presumably why Meghan's C of A is impaled in the way shown above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyle View Post
Quote:
or by grant to herself. When unmarried, she displays her arms on a lozenge (a diamond shape) or on an oval or oval-like shape. Traditionally, a woman does not display her arms on a shield, as the shield originated with knights and warfare, and is thus viewed as fitting for a man, but not a woman.
I'm going to take a feminist stance that this should be obsolete because women now do take up arms in warfare. Perhaps that is why we see a difference and Meghan's shield is joined side by side, equally with Harry's.

It is normal under the British laws of arms for a married woman's arms to be impaled (displayed side by side on a shield) with her husband's arms in the way seen in the image of the Duke and Duchess of Sussex's marital coat of arms.

However, arms normally are not impaled when the woman is an heraldic heiress whose family has no surviving male heirs. It is being asked why the marital arms make it appear that the Duchess of Sussex is not an heraldic heiress, since, while she has a surviving father and brother, they are not heirs to her coat of arms.

The Law of Arms - College of Arms

Quote:
Heraldic Heiress

Arms are only transmitted through a female line when there is a failure of male heirs. A woman with no surviving brothers, or whose deceased brothers have no surviving issue, is an heraldic heiress. She is not necessarily a monetary heiress. Providing that she marries a man who bears arms, the children of their marriage may include the arms of her father as a quartering in their own shields. This is how elaborate shields of many quarterings come about.

Arms of Women

A woman may bear arms by inheritance from her father or by grant to herself. She may not use a crest, which is considered a male attribute.

When unmarried, she displays her arms on a lozenge (a diamond shape) or an oval. A shield has traditionally been seen as a war-like device appropriate to a man. When married, a woman may unite her arms with those of her husband in what are called marital arms; their arms are impaled, meaning placed side by side in the same shield, with those of the man on the dexter and those of his wife on the sinister. If one spouse belongs to the higher ranks of an order of chivalry, and thereby entitled to surround his or her arms with a circlet of the order, it is usual to depict them on two separate shields tilted towards one another, termed accollé. A married woman may also bear either her own arms or her husband's arms alone on a shield with a small differencing mark to distinguish her from her father or husband.

If the woman is an heraldic heiress, her arms are shown on an inescutcheon of pretence (a small shield) in the centre of her husband's arms.

When widowed, a woman continues to use her marital arms, but placed on a lozenge or oval.
  #220  
Old 05-25-2018, 02:28 PM
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So the College of Arms fudged it?
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