Meghan Markle: Citizenship and Religious Conversion

[Curbside]

Sponsors are kind of like godparents--often the sponsor is also the godparent. The sponsor is also partly responsible for the confirmed person's spiritual upbringing.

 

[MARG]

well its not likely to be a BIG public thing but I see no reason why it should not be announced. they have made it public that she's receiving instruction in the Anglican faith and that she's going to be received intot it.. so it is harldy a private matter.

Yes, it would be nice to hear that she had been baptised and confirmed. I was surprised that they released the information that she was being baptised as well. Many children are "Christened", you know, getting baby done. It's an excuse for the entire family to get together and celebrate.

Meghan would only have her mother or possibly her father too but it is easy to see they brought her up to be curious but didn't indulge in any formal rites on her behalf, leaving her to make her own spiritual journey. That makes this a very bid deal.

 

[Osipi]

When we're talking about legal papers between the UK and the USA for Harry and Meghan, a good thing to keep in mind too is that its their *names* that are put on legal documents such a Rachel Meghan Markle.

When it comes to the HRH or Duchess of X. it would only be reflected on UK passports and legal papers. When we think about it, one thing that is rarely on any country's legal work (other than the UK) is titles and styles. I don't think there's anywhere I've seen in the US where things like "Mr." "Mrs." "Ms." "Dr.", "Reverend" or "Professor" are denoted on the document.

Should Harry ever be in a situation anywhere where he would need a legal surname, it would be Mountbatten-Windsor. Place designations such as "of Wales" are unique to the UK.

 

[jacqui24]

I brought the Rachel thing up months ago and people universally dismissed the thought - as she has been Meghan since childhood.

I'd guess that if she does a US name change, she also drops the Rachel. And if she has the choice in the UK, the Rachel may disappear there as well.

I don’t think she’ll drop Rachel as she’s had chances to do so in the past. She has always been known as Meghan, but her legal first name has always been Rachel. Meghan did legally change her last name to Engleson after she married Trevor, but changed it back to Markle after the divorce. Both times she kept Rachel as her first name.

 

[Somebody]

Consular officers would say, nope, she retains the name she has in her birth certificate in whatever situation until she marries in foreign country X that requires or allows her to change her last name/titles to that of her husband's. After marriage, she may use her husband's surname or titles and her marriage certificate, executed in X country, will be basis of that name change. This is regardless of her changing nationalities.

Thanks! I didn't know that, so the rules of the place where you marry are more important than the rules of your country of citizenship. So, she will officially change her name upon marriage (according to British custom or law) or is a separate step required; if so, why wouldn't that be reflected on her US paperwork as that is recognized as her new legal name?

And how did that work when she married in Jamaica, as she did change her name, so was that based on Jamaican law and not on US law?

Thanks again for your clarification.

 

[Somebody]

Not necessarily. As I said, if Harry is ever required to fill out any US immigration paperwork, like an application for a visa or ETA for example, he will have to write down his name as it appears in his British passport. Most likely, there is no British passport issued in the name of a Mr Henry Mountbatten-Windsor and, even if there were, it would be another person and Harry could not apply for any travel documents under that name.

As for Rachel, I don't see a reason why she would go through the trouble of changing her last name in her US documents. Many women don't do it anyway these days after they get married.

She changed her name the first time she got married. However, this time she wouldn't be able to change it to the title she is actually using, so that makes it even more of a hassle for little added value.

 

[jacqui24]

Thanks! I didn't know that, so the rules of the place where you marry are more important than the rules of your country of citizenship. So, she will officially change her name upon marriage (according to British custom or law) or is a separate step required; if so, why wouldn't that be reflected on her US paperwork as that is recognized as her new legal name?

And how did that work when she married in Jamaica, as she did change her name, so was that based on Jamaican law and not on US law?

Thanks again for your clarification.

I believe it has more to do with the country of residence, as long as they recognize the marriage of course. We see this particularly come into play with divorces. Some tries to file in a country/state with laws that are more favorable to them as long as they can justify jurisdiction, but usually it’s where the residence is. When she married Trevor, it was US law that would govern as she returned to US. The only difference here is that Britain recognizes titles whereas US doesn’t. If she really wanted, US wouldn’t stop her from changing her last name to Duchess of X as her last name (anyone can go through the legal process of changing their name at court house). But it’ll only be as last name rather than title.

 

[MARG]

Actually, the whole question of her new surname really affects both Harry and Megan. At present Harry is "Wales" but that has to change as his father is Prince of Wales now, but when he becomes King, William will be Prince of Wales so I shall be interested to see what title his grandmother gifts him if any.

 

[Mbruno]

Actually, the whole question of her new surname really affects both Harry and Megan. At present Harry is "Wales" but that has to change as his father is Prince of Wales now, but when he becomes King, William will be Prince of Wales so I shall be interested to see what title his grandmother gifts him if any.

When he gets married and is given a dukedom, Harry will cease to be referred to as "of Wales". His long title will be:

HRH Prince Henry Charles Albert David, Duke of [xxx], Earl of [xxx], Baron [xxx] KCVO .

On a daily basis, however, he will be referred to in short as "HRH The Duke of [xxx]", as his brother is today. His name on British documents will probably be simply "His Royal Highness Prince Henry Charles Albert David, Duke of [xxx]" as, again, his brother was named on Prince George's birth certificate.

When Charles becomes King, Harry's long title won't change actuallly, except for the fact that, as a son of the sovereign, I believe he will be styled instead, see link :


HRH The Prince Henry Charles Albert David, Duke of [xxx], Earl of [xxx], Baron [xxx], KCVO .

When he becomes King, Charles is also likely to make Harry a Knight of the Garter (KG) and perhaps upgrade him to Knight Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order (GCVO), but that remains to be seen.

 

[Pranter]

In turn after Charles is King, will their wives be THE Princess Henry x x x, THE Princess William x x x ?


LaRae

 

[ACO]

William and Kate will become the Prince and Princess of Wales.

 

[cepe]

William and Kate will become the Prince and Princess of Wales.

they will be Duke and Duchess of Cornwall first. I imagine that William will become Prince of Wales before Charles’ coronation.

 

[Osipi]

Most definitely William and Kate will become The Duke and Duchess of Cornwall and Cambridge. The Prince of Wales title isn't automatic and Charles would have to invest William to be The Prince of Wales. No reason that I can see that he wouldn't do so, just that it isn't automatic.

Back to Harry and Meghan, I do believe that once Charles is King, Meghan and Kate would respectively be The Princess William (Henry) but as that title and styling isn't generally used, we'd never hear it.

 

[Spheno]

In turn after Charles is King, will their wives be THE Princess Henry x x x, THE Princess William x x x ?


LaRae

No. It's lower titles than The Duchess of XXX.

 

[moby]

Thanks! I didn't know that, so the rules of the place where you marry are more important than the rules of your country of citizenship. So, she will officially change her name upon marriage (according to British custom or law) or is a separate step required;

Actually, the post by jacqui24 is correct, it would depend on residence and the naming customs of that country. Sorry if I confused things further about the marriage vs residence, I was thinking of Meghan's case where she will be living in the country where she will get married.

To give another example, say she marries a Spanish guy and they live in Spain. Things would be much easier as she will not be required nor expected to change her name. She will always be Rachel Meghan Markle. Had they gotten married in the U.S. and she decides to use her husband's surname, she can do so by doing the necessary red tape with the marriage license as basis.

If she marries in either the US or UK, I believe all she needs to do to take her husband's surname is to go to each relevant office (banks, social security, Foreign Ministry for new passports or whichever agency, etc), present her marriage license, fill out some forms and she would be entitled to hew new surname. In the UK, if and when she becomes a citizen and starts the process of getting her UK passport, I believe she would have to bring around her marriage license in order to be able to use her husband's surname. Again, same with banks and other places that require one to get IDs or update information for identity reasons after marriage.

if so, why wouldn't that be reflected on her US paperwork as that is recognized as her new legal name?

Hmmm, let's say after she marries Prince Harry she stays a US citizen (dual with UK) and gets a new US passport and wants her names on both UK and US passports to be consistent. I believe she just has to present her marriage license to the US Consulate in London and her old passport. Some countries require report of marriage to foreigners before they can do a name change but I think it is easier between UK-US marriages. Again, actual people with experience feel free to correct me.

The question would be, what is Harry's name going to be in the marriage license as her new surname would depend on that, would she even want to change her name in her US documents in the first place as her maiden name would be just as legal.

People need to remember that the rest of the world, although most have now followed the Western world's style of having first names and last names, has some interesting names and titles that do end up in their passports. Javanese names, Chinese names, Muslim names, heck even Hispanic names with their two lastnames...all these make Harry's HRH Prince of Wales name not that unusual. In some countries, let's say hypothetically that Prince George (whose birth certificate has made the rounds) seeks asylum in a country that follows birth certificates to the letter in their passports, his first name would actually be "His Royal Highness Prince George Alexander Louis of Cambridge" with a blank surname, OR first name ""His Royal Highness Prince George Alexander Louis" and lastname "of Cambridge," depending on the judgment of thE bureaucrat processing his document.

And how did that work when she married in Jamaica, as she did change her name, so was that based on Jamaican law and not on US law?

Thanks again for your clarification.

Since she is a US citizen and married a US citizen, they probably just executed a marriage license at the Consulate or filed a Report of Marriage if they got married outside the consulate premises, so no laws of Jamaica applied.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

Actually, the whole question of her new surname really affects both Harry and Megan. At present Harry is "Wales" but that has to change as his father is Prince of Wales now, but when he becomes King, William will be Prince of Wales so I shall be interested to see what title his grandmother gifts him if any.

Except that is only what he used as a last name for school, military, etc. It is not officially his last name. He has no last name in the UK. In legal documents some places outside the UK, his last name would be Mountbatten-Windsor as William's was when filing the lawsuit in France.

 

[Denville]

Except that is only what he used as a last name for school, military, etc. It is not officially his last name. He has no last name in the UK. In legal documents some places outside the UK, his last name would be Mountbatten-Windsor as William's was when filing the lawsuit in France.

true Wales is not Harry's surname. If he needs to use a surname it will be Mountbaten Windsor. and there wont be an issue. For goodness sake, she's going to marry Harry, she will be HRH the Duchess of Sussex.. If she needs to use a surname she will use Harry's of M- Windsor..

 

[ACO]

Wouldn't they use their new title names? For instance if Sussex as rumored they could just be Harry and Meghan Sussex the same way Harry and William used Wales and George and Charlotte use Cambridge in school?

 

[Osipi]

When we really think about it, neither Harry or Meghan go by their "legal" names. If they did, it would be Henry and Rachel.

I'm expecting quite a few people in the US watching this royal wedding will be scratching their heads when the vows are said. Henry? Rachel? What's going on here? Am I on the wrong channel or something?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Where Meghan’s legal name gets particularly tricky is going to be on British legal forms (ie her driver’s license or the birth registry for future children) - do they go with Rachel Meghan Markle (like her US forms), Rachel Meghan, HRH The Duchess of Wherever (like Kate on her children’s birth registries), or some combination of the two? [...]

On British birth registries, the parents' names are normally given to the registrar by the parent.

https://www.gov.uk/register-birth

Official documents issued to foreign nationals by the British Home Office normally use the name used in the non-British passport.

10. Holders of non-British passports and national identity cards must also provide evidence they have amended the details in other passport(s) and any national identity cards they hold, unless there are exceptional circumstances, such as those set out in paragraphs 18 to 30. The names used in these documents take precedent to names used in other supporting documents, such as marriage certificates and deed polls.

11. Foreign nationals who apply to become British citizens may be registered or naturalised in their married name. However, if a new citizen wants a British passport in their married name they must change the name on their other passport(s), travel documents and national identity card(s) to reflect their married name before submitting their application. Exceptions to this approach are set out in paragraphs 18 to 30 below.

The exceptions set out in paragraphs 18 to 30 are public safety grounds, transgender people, foreign nationals without passports, dual nationals, and recognised multiple names.

Recognised multiple names

29. British citizens who hold warranted titles or are known more commonly by their stage or professional name may use both names. An observation may be included in their passport. An example of this is when members of the House of Lords use both their titled names and their given names.

30. Foreign nationals will only have the name contained in their passport and national identity card placed on their BRP.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...e_Use_and_Change_of_Names_revision_060916.pdf

Except that is only what he used as a last name for school, military, etc. It is not officially his last name. He has no last name in the UK. In legal documents some places outside the UK, his last name would be Mountbatten-Windsor as William's was when filing the lawsuit in France.

A few of the British royals have used their official last name of Mountbatten-Windsor on UK birth or marriage registries.
http://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...eligious-conversion-43937-28.html#post2065963

 

[O-H Anglophile]

Wouldn't they use their new title names? For instance if Sussex as rumored they could just be Harry and Meghan Sussex the same way Harry and William used Wales and George and Charlotte use Cambridge in school?

They can use Sussex in common practice, but Meghan couldn't use it on her US passport as her last name unless she legally changes her last name though a court procedure. Sussex would be a nonrecognized title in the US, not a last name. AFAIK there are no titles on US legal documents.

 

[ACO]

I would assume on her passport it would likely be Mountbatten-Windsor.

 

[WillVictoria]

I have to wonder if kids could be another factor in this debate. If the kids are born during HM reign they will be known as lord/lady Mountbatten Windsor, and since the kids would automatically be US citizens I assume all their paperwork will say Mountbatten-Windsor. Meghan might decide, for consistency's sake, to change her name to match any future children.

 

[Mbruno]

I have to wonder if kids could be another factor in this debate. If the kids are born during HM reign they will be known as lord/lady Mountbatten Windsor, and since the kids would automatically be US citizens I assume all their paperwork will say Mountbatten-Windsor. Meghan might decide, for consistency's sake, to change her name to match any future children.

That seems to be a recurring topic on this forum.

Diana's name on her passport was: "Her Royal Highness Diana Frances, The Princess of Wales, née Lady Diana Frances Spencer".

I assume the same will apply to Meghan when she becomes a British citizen, i.e. she will probably be referred to in her UK passport as: "Her Royal Highness Rachel Meghan, Duchess of [xxx], née Rachel Meghan Markle". I still don't think she will change her US documents, but, if she keeps her US citizenship (which I also doubt she will), she might want to change her name in the US to Rachel Meghan Mountbatten-Windsor as using "Duchess of [xxx]" as last name would be unusual.

Her children will be dual citizens if they are born before Meghan gives up her US citizenship. In that case, I suppose they will be registered in the UK as "Lord/Lady [xxx] Mountbatten-Windsor" (assuming Charles has not ascended the throne yet) and, if they also apply for a US passport (which they probably will not anyway), simply as "[xxx] Mountbatten-Windsor" on their US passports.

EDIT: Would Meghan and Harry's firstborn son, as the heir to a dukedom, be registered in the UK as [xxx] Mountbatten-Windsor, Earl of [xxx] ? Would the predicate "The Right Honourable" be also used before his name on British documents ?

 

[Denville]

I can't see that she willkeep her US citizenship.

 

[Pranter]

I don't think she will either....after first she may but I think that will change after a bit.



LaRae

 

[Ish]

I can't see that she willkeep her US citizenship.

I don’t think she’s going to go through the full 5 year citizenship process; I think it’ll be expedited if/when she gets pregnant, if not before then (let’s see how much public outcry there is next year when she has to file US taxes).

 

[O-H Anglophile]

I would assume on her passport it would likely be Mountbatten-Windsor.

If she changes it to a married name yes, or she could just keep Markle.

 

[ACO]

I don’t think she’s going to go through the full 5 year citizenship process; I think it’ll be expedited if/when she gets pregnant, if not before then (let’s see how much public outcry there is next year when she has to file US taxes).

I agree with you. No way she will wait the full 5 years and have the kids be dual citizens. Also you bring up another thing... taxes. I just see them wanting to avoid all that as much as they possibly can. Seems more like a hassle and I while some will be crabby about it, I think majority would understand it.

 

[Pranter]

You have to pay that fine (at this point), if you give up citizenship in the US, to the IRS.

America charges $2,350 to hand in your passport, a fee that is more than twenty times the average of other high-income countries. The U.S. hiked the fee to renounce by 422%, as previously there was a $450 fee to renounce, and no fee to relinquish. Now, there is a $2,350 fee either way.

Not that it's a huge sum for someone like Meghan.


LaRae