Meghan Markle: Citizenship and Religious Conversion


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The Abbey or St George’s have nothing to do with it. It’s The Queen who matters

And I suspect you’ll find the general public hold members of the royal family to a higher standard.

If Meghan didn’t get baptised I’m sure The Queen would direct Harry to be married in a civil ceremony.

I’m sure before she gave her permission for marriage, certain guarantees were made by the couple


It was Meghan’s choice, no other choice if she wants to be a member of the BRF and there’s no doubt about that.

I think you know a different Queen that the one I've come to know. HM, The Queen has a deep and abiding faith in her God and if there is anyone that would listen to and heed the words the profess the faith of the Church of England, it most definitely would be her.

What you are suggesting in your posts which I've quoted is pure religious intolerance and that doesn't sound the least like the woman I've come to know as the Supreme Governor of the Church of England. I think she would be the last person on this planet to insist or force a spiritual path or religion on another person because that is the way she thinks or that she believes. Especially when it comes to her beloved grandson and the woman he is deeply in love with and wants to spend the rest of his life with.
 
If none of this mattered, The Queen would have been present when C&C married a second time. If she’s so easy going.

Like I said I know times are changing but The Queen is stil The Queen and she does have standards.
 
There were certain elements to Charles and Camilla's wedding that actually did bring a wedding in the Church of England into debate. There are none hindering the wedding of Harry and Meghan. Its a totally different situation.

Its obvious that the Church of England is backing Harry and Meghan's wedding which would leave any obstacle that you could present being laid at the Queen's feet and truthfully, you're implying that the Queen has a case of religious intolerance when it comes to this matter. :D
 
If none of this mattered, The Queen would have been present when C&C married a second time. If she’s so easy going.

Like I said I know times are changing but The Queen is stil The Queen and she does have standards.

She couldn't be there for the civil ceremony, but was at the church blessing. I really don't think C&C is a good example to compare here. Charles will be the future head of CoE, and Harry won't be. The marriage itself was always controversial, and the Queen's approval of it was always question prior to the wedding by the public. I don't think that she disapproved from a personal standpoint, but it was something some parts of the public held onto. She's certainly not made any effort publicly to dispel it. Quite honestly, I've always felt that was at least in part to ease the people's issues with that marriage.
 
The Church of England is established by law. The Queen is Supreme Governor of the church

Harry needs her permission to get married, not the AoC. The Queen is a deeply religious person. So as I say, I’m sure the couple gave her certain assurances before she gave her blessing

I think you're at crossed wires a little. (Apologies to the Mods, I know this off topic!)

You're absolutely right in what you say. The Church of England is the state church and it has a national role to play both spiritually and in the legislature. The Queen is the Supreme Governor of the Church. But...

The Queen takes no role in the actual governance of the church. That falls to the Archbishop of Canterbury and the General Synod. The Queen's role within the church is two fold: ceremonial and personal. As a private individual, the Queen is a devoted Christian and a regular church go-er. As monarch, she is nominally the head of the church - but she has very little to do with the actual running of the church itself. She rubber stamps decisions, she doesn't actually have any real authority within the set up of the modern Anglican Church.

Prince Harry does require the Queen's permission to announce his intention to marry. It's a little more complex than that but to avoid a huge derail, let's stick with that for now. But the Queen cannot act as celebrant, that is, she has no authority to celebrate a marriage ceremony. That falls to the church and the present rules as laid down by the General Synod state that it is upto the individual parish priest to determine, within both the law and his conscience, as to what requirements he sets for the condition of a couple when they apply to him for permission to marry with his church with him acting as celebrant. If a parish priest refuses to conduct a ceremony for any reason, a couple may petition their local Bishop or apply for a variety of licenses from the Archbishop of Canterbury at the Faculty Office of Lambeth Palace.

Let's say that the Dean of Windsor was asked to perform the ceremony in May. His personal requirements may be that he only considers that either the bride or the groom should be a member of the Anglican church. But the Dean of Windsor isn't being asked to celebrate the marriage. The Archbishop of Canterbury is. The Archbishop must therefore meet with the couple and inquire as to their religious backgrounds. His personal requirements may be that he prefers full communion for both bride and groom, in which case he would have made it clear that he would not, personally, be able to celebrate the wedding unless Meghan was received into the Anglican Communion. The couple then have a choice. They could ask the Bishop of London. They could ask the Archbishop of York. Or any other cleric permitted to celebrate marriages in Anglican churches. Providing the individual cleric agrees, the Queen doesn't come in it.

The fact is that religion has ceased to be such a high priority in the UK. The Church of England is in decline, to the point where many of it's own senior clergy do not believe it'll last another 20 years. That decline has been in effect for some time and when it comes to the Royal Family, whilst it's absolutely traditional that they are Anglicans and would become such if they were not prior to their marriage, it isn't required. Encouraged in private, perhaps. But not required. If Meghan has taken this decision, it must be because she herself feels she wants to do so. I can assure you that people in Britain aren't bothered about this. If she was Jewish, Hindu, Muslim or Sikh we probably wouldn't raise an eyebrow either (and she could still marry Harry in St George's if that were the case by the way).

Times have changed. Britain is a secular nation with a state church. It's an anomaly that will eventually have to be rectified. The only time anyone has really questioned the role of religion within the Royal Family came with the conversion of the Duchess of Kent to Roman Catholicism in 1994. Even then, people were not concerned about that so much as they were that she may be making a political statement about female ordination. Even when there were rumours that Diana was to convert, it was controversial because of it's legality and not the spiritual connotations.

In short, this isn't an issue. However she came to the decision, whoever encouraged, advised, ordered or demanded, suggested, pleaded, bribed or cajoled her into it, we'll never know. But her religion is a personal matter for her. It's nothing to do with the general public, many of whom haven't stepped foot in a church since their baptisms. It is however very much to do with the Archbishop of Canterbury because in practical terms? It's his church now. Not the Queen's.
 
Palmer wrote an article stating the the AOC was personally consulted about the marriage and met with Harry and Meghan. It also said the AOC would be conducting the service. Take it with a grain of salt but Palmer has decent sources usually. It wouldn’t surprise me if he officiated andn it also wouldn’t surprise me if someone who maybe Harry knows better or who is closer to him for some reason officiates.

Meghan has some sense of “religion” as her theology teachers from HS have talked well of her commitment to social justice theology and faith. Furthe, to be an ambassador of WV requires a commitment to the Christian faith, is my understanding (and that was also required for their staff and interns too). Some people, many younger people especially, are not wedded to their denominational background so maybe for Meghan being baptized in the Anglican communion isn’t a big deal because of that?

And great explanation Gaudete!
 
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I would expect the baptism and confirmation to be private and no announcement till after the event. Same as with Catherine's confirmation.

I would have thought the Chapel Royal.
 
I think you're at crossed wires a little. (Apologies to the Mods, I know this off topic!)

You're absolutely right in what you say. The Church of England is the state church and it has a national role to play both spiritually and in the legislature. The Queen is the Supreme Governor of the Church. But...

The Queen takes no role in the actual governance of the church. That falls to the Archbishop of Canterbury and the General Synod. The Queen's role within the church is two fold: ceremonial and personal. As a private individual, the Queen is a devoted Christian and a regular church go-er. As monarch, she is nominally the head of the church - but she has very little to do with the actual running of the church itself. She rubber stamps decisions, she doesn't actually have any real authority within the set up of the modern Anglican Church.

Prince Harry does require the Queen's permission to announce his intention to marry. It's a little more complex than that but to avoid a huge derail, let's stick with that for now. But the Queen cannot act as celebrant, that is, she has no authority to celebrate a marriage ceremony. That falls to the church and the present rules as laid down by the General Synod state that it is upto the individual parish priest to determine, within both the law and his conscience, as to what requirements he sets for the condition of a couple when they apply to him for permission to marry with his church with him acting as celebrant. If a parish priest refuses to conduct a ceremony for any reason, a couple may petition their local Bishop or apply for a variety of licenses from the Archbishop of Canterbury at the Faculty Office of Lambeth Palace.

Let's say that the Dean of Windsor was asked to perform the ceremony in May. His personal requirements may be that he only considers that either the bride or the groom should be a member of the Anglican church. But the Dean of Windsor isn't being asked to celebrate the marriage. The Archbishop of Canterbury is. The Archbishop must therefore meet with the couple and inquire as to their religious backgrounds. His personal requirements may be that he prefers full communion for both bride and groom, in which case he would have made it clear that he would not, personally, be able to celebrate the wedding unless Meghan was received into the Anglican Communion. The couple then have a choice. They could ask the Bishop of London. They could ask the Archbishop of York. Or any other cleric permitted to celebrate marriages in Anglican churches. Providing the individual cleric agrees, the Queen doesn't come in it.

The fact is that religion has ceased to be such a high priority in the UK. The Church of England is in decline, to the point where many of it's own senior clergy do not believe it'll last another 20 years. That decline has been in effect for some time and when it comes to the Royal Family, whilst it's absolutely traditional that they are Anglicans and would become such if they were not prior to their marriage, it isn't required. Encouraged in private, perhaps. But not required. If Meghan has taken this decision, it must be because she herself feels she wants to do so. I can assure you that people in Britain aren't bothered about this. If she was Jewish, Hindu, Muslim or Sikh we probably wouldn't raise an eyebrow either (and she could still marry Harry in St George's if that were the case by the way).

Times have changed. Britain is a secular nation with a state church. It's an anomaly that will eventually have to be rectified. The only time anyone has really questioned the role of religion within the Royal Family came with the conversion of the Duchess of Kent to Roman Catholicism in 1994. Even then, people were not concerned about that so much as they were that she may be making a political statement about female ordination. Even when there were rumours that Diana was to convert, it was controversial because of it's legality and not the spiritual connotations.

In short, this isn't an issue. However she came to the decision, whoever encouraged, advised, ordered or demanded, suggested, pleaded, bribed or cajoled her into it, we'll never know. But her religion is a personal matter for her. It's nothing to do with the general public, many of whom haven't stepped foot in a church since their baptisms. It is however very much to do with the Archbishop of Canterbury because in practical terms? It's his church now. Not the Queen's.

Britain is indeed secular but it doesn't have a State religion .

England does ,but neither Scotland or Wales do .In Scotland HM sends a rep each year to the General Assembly (who sits in the body of the Kirk with everybody else like she herself does when she goes to a Kirk) when but that's as far as her role in the Kirk goes apart from attending services .We don't even have protestant church schools as a result of the separation of powers.And we have an Act Of Parliament that guarantees it's independence so we have a National church but not a State one
 
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Infant baptism is uncommon in the US outside of certain denominations. Many serious Christians here don't get baptized until roughly the age of reason. In a similar vein, many non-Catholics attend Catholic schools, where they would be required to attend Mass, sit through religious classes, etc., but not expected to take the sacraments. So Meghan would have had more exposure to the Christian faith than the average unbaptized, unconfirmed person.

The Protestant Christian denominations that discourage infant baptism generally do not have any sort of confirmation. Some Protestant denominations require "re-baptism" in order to join the church.

I was reared a secular Christian, and was baptized and confirmed as an adult. It's really quite common here.
 
England does ,but neither Scotland or Wales do .In Scotland HM sends a rep each year to the General Assembly (who sits in the body of the Kirk with everybody else like she herself does when she goes to a Kirk) when but that's as far as her role in the Kirk goes apart from attending services .We don't even have protestant church schools as a result of the separation of powers.And we have an Act Of Parliament that guarantees it's independence so we have a National church but not a State one

My apologies, I should have been more specific in the distinction between England/the rest of the UK.

The real point I was trying to make was that though the church has a defined role in the legislature at Westminster, that doesn't transfer to attendance or influence. The OP seemed to think that most Britons would be horrified if Meghan wasn't an Anglican which naturally isn't the case. :flowers:
 
Another way to look at this from the Queen's viewpoint. If HM approved Parliament's passing the amendment to the Act of Succession in 2013 that not only allows the first born child to become heir to the throne regardless of gender but also allows for those in the line of succession to marry a Roman Catholic should they wish to, why would the Queen then be adamant that her grandson *only* marry a woman that has been baptized and confirmed in the Church of England. It just doesn't make sense.

The Queen's approval for Harry to marry has absolutely nothing to do with religion. It has to do with HM's role as monarch. He may have had some problems getting consent if he came asking to marry the sister of Bashar Hafez al-Assad, for example. He could have asked and gotten consent to marry Meghan if she was a practicing Buddhist, or be an atheist or whatever spiritual path she chooses to follow. As has been stated, the Church of England itself finds no reason why these two should not marry. The Queen has given her consent as Harry's monarch and obviously the families on both sides are overjoyed with the engagement.

Whatever Meghan does or doesn't do as far as her joining the Church of England is her own decision. No one else has any impact on that. :D
 
Except I didn’t say most Britons. I said eyebrows would be raised and they would.

If Meghan said I want a big church wedding, say my vows before God but you know what, I don’t want to be baptised or confirmed. I’m sure The Queen would give her the side eye.

So for me either Meghan Markle has had some religious epiphany and now wants to be baptised or people have had a word. I know what I believe.
 
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Except I didn’t say most Britons. I said eyebrows would be raised and they would.

If Meghan said I want a big church wedding, say my vows before God but you know what, I don’t want to be baptised or confirmed. I’m sure The Queen would give her the side eye.

So for me either Meghan Markle has had some religious epiphany and now wants to be baptised or people have had a word. I know what I believe.

We can assume the Queen gives the side eye as much as we want. That's still far way off from they CAN'T. The truth is there is nothing preventing it. If whoever officiates feels comfortable, I doubt the Queen is going to pipe up and put a stop to it.
 
Except I didn’t say most Britons. I said eyebrows would be raised and they would.

So for me either Meghan Markle has had some religious epiphany and now wants to be baptised or people have had a word. I know what I believe.

Your original post said:

How many eyebrows would have been raised not least by The Queen if Meghan didn’t get baptised.

This is a royal wedding. I know times are changing but they haven’t changed that much.

My post was intended to demonstrate that times have indeed changed that much. Religion in the UK is very different today than it was just twenty years ago and if Meghan had said she had wanted a big church wedding without baptism or confirmation it would not only have been possible but the vast majority wouldn't have thought twice about it. The Queen, perhaps. But I don't presume to know what the Queen thinks.
 
If Meghan said I want a big church wedding, say my vows before God but you know what, I don’t want to be baptised or confirmed. I’m sure The Queen would give her the side eye.

I disagree. We could take your sentence and add into it that not only does she not wish to be baptized and confirmed but also add in that she was converting to the Roman Catholic church and the marriage *still* would have gotten the Queen's approval and blessing and the Church of England allow the marriage to take place in whichever CoE church they wanted it to be in. ;)
 
Harry doesn’t need the approval of the ‘vast majority’ , he needs the approval of his deeply religious grandmother.

People can scoff and no doubt they do but The Queen takes it seriously.
 
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.....

So for me either Meghan Markle has had some religious epiphany and now wants to be baptised or people have had a word. I know what I believe.

Many of us who had given little thought to religion prior to committing to marriage and future parenthood did have a bit of an epiphany when we gave consideration to our future. We saw the connection between G-d’s love for us and our love for the future we and our family would share.

And Meghan is 36 years old. Women that age don’t need ‘people to have a word’ with us in order to make a serious decision.
 
Presumably Meghan was serious about her first marriage. She didn’t need religion then but along comes Prince Harry who’s grandmother is Supreme Governor of the Church of England and voila, Meghan is getting baptised and confirmed.

As they would say on Seinfeld, that’s a big coincidence. And like I said, I know what I believe.
 
The Queen seems to take the stance to live and let live with her family. If Meghan simply identifies as Christian and didn’t feel the need to join the COE why would it matter if she had a big church wedding? As it were, it’s all moot since she is having a big church wedding and is getting confirmed. Further, she seems to have a strong background in faith given her education and her charitable commitments so this is hardly coming out of nowhere. Even if she isn’t a pious practicing Christian (and given that no one else in the family seems to be besides the Queen and Charles supposedly), why care about if she is or is not confirmed? How is that a marker of her spiritual sincereity?In America, denominations are much more fluid as others have mentioned and folks move around a lot over the course of their lives between different traditions and confirmed or re baptized or never baptized but still take faith seriously. Meghan being confirmed in the COE literally doesn’t bat most people’s eyes.

I feel like some posters on here are trying to insinuate a negative out of her decision to be confirmed or insinuate she isn’t really committed and only doing it to save face. Maybe that is true but maybe it isn’t. Regardless, many people get confirmed for cultural reasons versus spiritual. Not sure why this is being so dragged out...
 
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there was a man Henry de Navarra who said: Paris is worth a mass .... - ;)
 
It amazes me that people who have never met someone can decide how sincere they are in their religious convictions. Very strange.
 
And getting married to a Prince is worth a baptism ;)


The Prince of Wales is known to attend services in the Orthodox tradition. The Duchess of Kent and Princess Michael are practicing Roman Catholics. I have never seen any evidence to suggest that Prince Harry attends church on a weekly basis. I think if the Queen demanded absolutely unswerving loyalty to the Church of England as Henry VIII once did, we’d have seen consequences of it by now. Unless you know something about Her Majesty’s rigid religious scruples we don’t.
 
And getting married to a Prince is worth a baptism ;)

And no one is saying it isn't if it's what is wanted. We are just disputing the she needs to do this in order to be a member of BRF or marry in church. She doesn't.
 
Meghan knows perfectly well that she is marrying into the BRF whose head is also the head of the Church of England. So, it might be said that this decision is completely hers but that ignores the fact that context matters. Her choice isn't made in a vacuum.

Had Harry NOT been a prominent member of the BRF, she might have made a different decision: for example, a church wedding because of Harry's Anglican background without necessarily Meghan being baptized and confirmed as well. Or they might have considered that they would like future children to be baptized and that's why they decide that it would be best if Meghan also becomes an official church member (before or after marriage).

All in all, imo it is Meghan's decision - as I don't think she would do it against her will - but her decision is influenced by the unique circumstances she is in.
 
Meghan knows perfectly well that she is marrying into the BRF whose head is also the head of the Church of England. So, it might be said that this decision is completely hers but that ignores the fact that context matters. Her choice isn't made in a vacuum.

Had Harry NOT been a prominent member of the BRF, she might have made a different decision: for example, a church wedding because of Harry's Anglican background without necessarily Meghan being baptized and confirmed as well. Or they might have considered that they would like future children to be baptized and that's why they decide that it would be best if Meghan also becomes an official church member (before or after marriage).

All in all, imo it is Meghan's decision - as I don't think she would do it against her will - but her decision is influenced by the unique circumstances she is in.
I absolutely agree that she's made certain decision based on the fact that Harry is who he is and she's going to have a prominent public role as his wife. However, she still had a choice. She could've taken a different route and it still would work. Does her decision on this make certain things easier in terms of managing public reaction? Yes, but not the only way. But some earlier posts made it seem like the Queen made her list of demands in order to give permission for a church wedding is simply ludicrous. It fact, it was flat out stated by some that Meghan didn't have a choice but to do so. :lol:
 
Had she chose not to get baptised The Queen would may have still granted permission on the condition it was a civil ceremony. No point having a big religious ceremony if she wasn’t willing to get baptised. I think she made that clear when she granted permission. That’s my opinion
 
Had she chose not to get baptised The Queen would may have still granted permission on the condition it was a civil ceremony. No point having a big religious ceremony if she wasn’t willing to get baptised. I think she made that clear when she granted permission. That’s my opinion



This simply isn’t true. You’re entitled to your opinion but it doesn’t change the fact that Meghan does not need baptism or confirmation to marry in an Anglican Church.
 
Had she chose not to get baptised The Queen would may have still granted permission on the condition it was a civil ceremony. No point having a big religious ceremony if she wasn’t willing to get baptised. I think she made that clear when she granted permission. That’s my opinion
Tell me, do you think our Queen also blackmailed Sophie and Autumn? Mike Tindall? All had church weddings, not civil.
 
This simply isn’t true. You’re entitled to your opinion but it doesn’t change the fact that Meghan does not need baptism or confirmation to marry in an Anglican Church.

The Queen can set it as a condition for Harry. He needs her permission before the marriage can take place in the first place

If Harry was Joe Bloggs it wouldn’t matter but The Queen has standards.
 
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