Meghan Markle: Citizenship and Religious Conversion

[Gaudete]

Originally Posted by Mbruno

In fact, especially after the Catholic church switched to mass in vernacular languages in the 1960s, an Anglican Sunday eucharist service is only subtly different from an English-language Sunday mass. Furthermore, Anglican churches are also episcopal churches with ordained bishops, whom the Anglicans claim to be in apostolic succession although that claim is rejected by the Roman Catholic church, which does not recognize the validity of Anglican ordinations.

In some ways yes but in others, no. The churches have more similarities nowadays but even with the changes to the liturgy made by the Second Vatican Council (and changes to the Order of the Mass since), they remain very different - at least in England.

The biggest difference between the two remains the nature and purpose of worship. Anglican services will usually only offer communion one Sunday a month. This is the case in the services the Queen regularly attends but in no way could the Queen be seen as worshipping in an Anglo-Catholic tradition (where communion is offered at every service). There is no requirement for reconciliation before the service as there is with the Catholic Church, creeds are different, the structure of the liturgy is different and the whole purpose of the Mass according to the Roman Rite is the celebration of the Eucharist which is absent from the Anglican Rite.

In most English Anglican Churches, communion is given at the discretion of the priest which relates to my earlier point. Whilst the Roman Catholic Church is far more centralised in it's doctrine, the Anglicans have a sort of unofficial motto which defines their approach; "All may, some should, none must". If the Dean of Windsor allowed it, for example, Meghan could receive communion with other members of the Royal Family whether she was baptised or not. This wouldn't be the case if the Royal Family were Roman Catholic and some Anglicans who visit Catholic churches in the UK can get very frosty when they're refused communion.

To pick up an earlier point, this is why the marriage of the Duke of Kent and Princess Marina was celebrated according to two different rites even though the Anglican Church at the time was far more friendly in it's relations towards the Orthodox than it was towards Catholics. By allowing a co-celebration of the liturgy, it allowed Marina to receive the sacrament as part of her marriage which the Orthodox (and Roman Catholic) church requires but the Anglican Rite does not. For the Orthodox and Roman Catholics, the Eucharist must be included to make the celebration of the sacrament of marriage valid - which is why divorcees can't remarry in Catholic or Orthodox churches. They aren't in a state of grace, cannot receive and therefore cannot enter into a valid marriage according to the rules of the church.

Some Anglo-Catholics do follow the example of Rome in this example and so it would be hard to tell the difference in some of their services but certainly the vast majority of Anglican churches in England have what is known as a "low church" approach that really would be seen as very different indeed to a Catholic Mass.

It was interesting to me that even after the changes to the law, there was an element of suspicion raised by some at the very idea that Meghan might be a Roman Catholic. Perhaps it was simply that if Meghan was a Catholic and had married her first husband in a Roman Catholic Church, her subsequent marriage to Prince Harry in an Anglican Church wouldn't be seen as valid by the Roman Catholic Church. But most likely it's a hangover that many Brits seem to have from the Reformation and the events that followed it which still makes Catholicism something to be wary of - even though Catholics now outnumber Anglicans in the UK!

[wyevale]

Regarding the [overblown] FUSS over Ms Markles Baptism prior to marriage..

The first Queen Elizabeth rightly said "I have no desire to make windows into men's souls".

I would say 'By their works shall ye know them', and certainly this young couple have shown [both individually in the past] and in their stated aims for their future, MULTIPLE examples of good intentions and deeds.
That they choose to do so within the framework of the Church of England can/should be no surprise to anyone, and to accuse either of them of bad faith is rather odd, and without evidence or foundation..

[Denville]

but Meg isn't a Roman Catholic. I don't think shes' been baptised but it appears she did go to Catholic School.. and she has had a previous wedding which was problaby not a Christian one?
However I admit that the fact that she seems to be going from "no particular relgion" to Anglicanism in a few months, makes me a bit uneasy. I'll assume she's sincere in wanting to convert. But its not like someone who has been brught up RC or in some other denomination deciding to consider a change and learning about the C of E...

[Gaudete]

Originally Posted by Denville

but Meg isn't a Roman Catholic. I don't think shes' been baptised but it appears she did go to Catholic School.. and she has had a previous wedding which was problaby not a Christian one?
However I admit that the fact that she seems to be going from "no particular relgion" to Anglicanism in a few months, makes me a bit uneasy. I'll assume she's sincere in wanting to convert. But its not like someone who has been brught up RC or in some other denomination deciding to consider a change and learning about the C of E...

Again I would stress the importance of words like "conversion". Meghan is (and supposedly always has been) a Christian, she's simply being received into a new Christian communion. This is reception, not conversion. The same would be true if she was an Anglican becoming a Catholic. The Duchess of Kent didn't convert to Roman Catholicism, she was received into the Roman Catholic Church as she was already a Christian by practise if not by sacraments recognised as valid by Rome. If Meghan was Jewish or Muslim however then yes, she would be converting.

[Pranter]

Denville her first wedding was on a beach in Jamaica ...her first husband was Jewish however it doesn't appear to have been a religious wedding.

Her parents, evidently, are Protestant (dad is Episcopal).


LaRae

[Denville]

Originally Posted by Gaudete

Again I would stress the importance of words like "conversion". Meghan is (and supposedly always has been) a Christian, she's simply being received into a new Christian communion. This is reception, not conversion. The same would be true if she was an Anglican becoming a Catholic. The Duchess of Kent didn't convert to Roman Catholicism, she was received into the Roman Catholic Church as she was already a Christian by practise if not by sacraments recognised as valid by Rome. If Meghan was Jewish or Muslim however then yes, she would be converting.

is she? My understanding was that she hadn't been baptised or brought up in any Christian denomination... Generally speaking the C of E would not ask for someone to be baptised if they had been baptised already in most other Christian denominations.

[Gaudete]

Originally Posted by Denville

is she? My understanding was that she hadn't been baptised or brought up in any Christian denomination... Generally speaking the C of E would not ask for someone to be baptised if they had been baptised already in most other Christian denominations.

As I explained above, this really is up to the individual parish priest. The Church of England doesn't have solid blanket structures in place as other churches do. Meghan's father is an Episcopalian I believe and had she been baptised in that communion, the Church of England would absolutely recognise it. But just because she hasn't been baptised, doesn't mean that she doesn't consider herself to be a Christian. I know many people who consider themselves to be Christians who don't belong to a formal church structure of haven't been baptised, regardless of what my view on their status is. Neither does it mean that the Archbishop of Canterbury as the celebrant has insisted on her baptism and confirmation. It's likely but we will never know for certain.

I wouldn't be wary or uncomfortable with her decision though. However she's come to it, it's a matter between Meghan and God. And really none of our business.

[Pranter]

Originally Posted by Denville

is she? My understanding was that she hadn't been baptised or brought up in any Christian denomination... Generally speaking the C of E would not ask for someone to be baptised if they had been baptised already in most other Christian denominations.

I know for Catholics (I'm one), the only time they 're-baptize' is when it is known the Trinitarian formula is not used. There are 2 or 3 religious groups who don't use this during baptism. However seeing that her parents are both Protestant, and the COE is baptizing her, I'm guessing she has never been.

Not all Protestant groups believe in infant baptism, the person must be of 'age' before it's done.



LaRae

[Gaudete]

I think in the case of the Church of England, the only baptisms they don't recognise (and I could be mistaken here) are baptisms performed by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Jehovah's Witnesses or the Unitarians. Because as Pranter says, they're not trinitarian faiths.

[Pranter]

Originally Posted by Gaudete

I think in the case of the Church of England, the only baptisms they don't recognise (and I could be mistaken here) are baptisms performed by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Jehovah's Witnesses or the Unitarians. Because as Pranter says, they're not trinitarian faiths.

Yep it's pretty much the same for the us, those are the 3 I'm aware of.


LaRae

[Denville]

Originally Posted by Pranter

I know for Catholics (I'm one), the only time they 're-baptize' is when it is known the Trinitarian formula is not used. There are 2 or 3 religious groups who don't use this during baptism. However seeing that her parents are both Protestant, and the COE is baptizing her, I'm guessing she has never been.

Not all Protestant groups believe in infant baptism, the person must be of 'age' before it's done.



LaRae

exactly. If she had been baptised already the C of E recognises most baptismal rites of other denominatons. so she almost certainly hasn't been... However it is possible that she will take instruction in the C of E and will become interested in it and it will be important to her...

[Pranter]

She may have already been taking instruction too...afterall they have known they were headed to the altar for at least a year I'm guessing.


LaRae

[jacqui24]

I'm sure there would be instructions before becoming baptized. I've never heard of priests just baptize anyone without having some kind of instruction. Especially given the high profile nature in her case.

Plus, some are acting like she never was familiar with the religion and all of sudden adopting it. The truth is, she might not have been baptized or Catholic, but having gone to Catholic school, she's had religion classes regularly during her formative years. And yes, I do know Anglican church and Catholic church have differences, but the Bible is still the same.

[Moonmaiden23]

Originally Posted by Lady Nimue

The two religions are extremely close which is why ecumenically the joining of the two churches is always seen as very likely at some point. There are no real doctrinal differences, except for the papal infallibility issue and that is a recent addition (from 1800's) and can easily be amended (as every good Jesuit knows. ) I agree with Autumn Phillips and I do not consider myself 'one of the millions of very poorly catechized Catholics in the world'. Just saying.

I strongly suspect, given Meghan's actions and words in her life, that she is a Christian. It is unlikely that anything in the Anglican Church is antithetical to the essential Christianity of her upbringing by her parents. 'By their works you shall know them.'

Lady Nimue-

I enjoy your posts so much and admire you as well, so it pains me to disagree with you on the rare occasions that I do. I will try to stick to the important points so as not to veer too far off topic.

Anglicans and Catholics have a similar outward appearance in ritual and liturgy. But the few differences that do exist are profound game changers...how many Sacraments and what do they mean, ordination of female priests, the very nature of the priesthood, the Mass, the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and the biggest sticking point of all ... the primacy of the See of Rome.

It's true that the two Churches have come far since the Reformation, but we have miles to go. I am a little confused about "fixing" papal infallibility and what you mean by that. It is certainly not a "new addition". It was formally defined at Vatican I in 1870 but has been a belief of the Church from the very beginning.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_..._infallibility

St Augustine referred to it as far back as the 5th century...."Roma Locuta Est-Causa Finita Est" (Rome has spoken, the matter is finished)
https://www.catholic.com/qa/what-is-...er-is-finished.

The current Pope Francis is a good Jesuit, but I doubt if even he will be able to resolve the fundamental differences that have separated the Anglican and Catholic communions for the last 500 years.

I agree that Meghan Markle has demonstrated a spirit of generosity and goodwill from the little that I know of her, but that does not mean she has lived a Christian life. The Dalai Lama-one of my heroes-has those qualities and is not a Christian and my(beloved) quasi-atheistic landlady does as well.

Those are human qualities, admirable ones true-but not necessarily limited to followers of Christ.

As another poster stated-a true Christian lives a Christocentric life with Jesus Christ and the reality of the Incarnation at the foundation of all he/she believes and for the way they conduct their lives.

[Lady Reem]

Longtime lurker so hello. This discussion on Meghan and Christianity. The way I see it now there is confirmation that Meghan's parents are of the Protestant denomination, then so is Meghan. Also according to a newspaper report I read previously her close friend did say they both spent Sundays at university attending church and doing other family friendly stuff.

Very wrong to suggest she would have to convert to Christianity.

[wyevale]

One of the standard citizenship test questions facing Ms Markle asks where the wife of another rather famous royal called Henry had her head chopped off ?

Excellent sense of humour, our civil servants....

[Denville]

Originally Posted by jacqui24

I'm sure there would be instructions before becoming baptized. I've never heard of priests just baptize anyone without having some kind of instruction. Especially given the high profile nature in her case.

Plus, some are acting like she never was familiar with the religion and all of sudden adopting it. The truth is, she might not have been baptized or Catholic, but having gone to Catholic school, she's had religion classes regularly during her formative years. And yes, I do know Anglican church and Catholic church have differences, but the Bible is still the same.

of course there would be a period of instruction, but just because she went to a Catholic school does not mean she received any instruction in that faith's beleifs, and yes there are differences. My husband attended a Catholic school as a child and didnt' as far as I can remember attend religious instructiotn. So she is problaby not at all familiar iwht the C of E.

Originally Posted by Lady Reem

Longtime lurker so hello. This discussion on Meghan and Christianity. The way I see it now there is confirmation that Meghan's parents are of the Protestant denomination, then so is Meghan. Also according to a newspaper report I read previously her close friend did say they both spent Sundays at university attending church and doing other family friendly stuff.

seems to me very unusual if she wasn't brought up as church attender, and wasn't formally initiated in any religion that she would attend church at University....

[Juliette2]

Gaudete - Thank you for sharing your knowledge: most interesting!

[Lady Reem]

And how do you suppose she is not a church goer? How would you know for certain?

[Juliette2]

Originally Posted by Lady Reem

Very wrong to suggest she would have to convert to Christianity.

I suppose it is not the right word. If someone is agnostic or atheist (I'm not saying Miss Markle is, I'm just making an example), and decides to become a Christian, what word should be used? Maybe "reception" into a Church?