Meghan Markle: Citizenship and Religious Conversion

[alvinking]

Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile

I could be entirely wrong but I think JuliannaVictoria means she was born in another country as a dual citizen and did not claim her U.S. citizenship until later in life, perhaps as an adult. That her parents did not register her and get her a U.S. passport as a child which is what Alvinking said was required for her child.

As a matter of clarity, I am a He, it is my spouse who is a SHE

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by jacqui24

Someone is absolutely not just a citizen after the formal process has been followed. They have PROOF of citizenship after the formal process have been followed. There are different ways to obtain that proof.

As we've seen in this thread, people have obtained citizenship through different means. Alvinking obtained documentation on behalf of a child that's minor. JuliannaVictoria obtained documentation for herself as adult. Both are through birth. It's not like she was never a citizen, but all of sudden became a citizen as a adult. Birth means birth.

You even talk about 'obtained citizenship through different means'

So, it seems it is not as clear cut. Many people have the rights from birth but only exercised those rights and became US citizen when the US government confirmed their elegibility and established their citizenship.

Question for people claiming their US citizenship (based on birth right) as adults: are you suppossed to file for taxes from age 18 and up when applying for citizenship?

[jacqui24]

Originally Posted by Somebody

None of this is contrary to what alvinking said as far as I can see. Number 2 was even exactly the situation discussed. So, I am still confused as to what you think was missing from the previous posts.

Would you agree that citizenship is only established after going through the process or is someone automatically a citizen (if born to a US citizen) with all the obligations that come with it (such as paying taxes and only entering the US on US documents) without going through the process (so no rights can be exercised)?

I think the quote below answers this question. Yes, they absolutely still have obligations as parents are warned failure to register a baby that meets the requirement can result in legal complications. If it's a choice, they wouldn't have listed this as a issue for those that fail to register the baby. They always use may because it's not guaranteed it'll happen. The reason being most don't get caught as there is no way for government to know. That's not happening here.


Birth of U.S. Citizens Abroad
Parents of a child born abroad to a U.S. citizen or citizens should apply for a CRBA [Consular Report of Birth Abroad of a Citizen of the United States of America] and/or a U.S. passport for the child as soon as possible. Failure to quickly document a child who meets the requirements for acquiring U.S. citizenship at birth may cause problems for the parents and the child when attempting to establish the child’s U.S. citizenship and eligibility for the rights and benefits of U.S. citizenship, including entry into the United States. By law, U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States.

[JuliannaVictoria]

Originally Posted by Somebody

None of this is contrary to what alvinking said as far as I can see. Number 2 was even exactly the situation discussed. So, I am still confused as to what you think was missing from the previous posts.

Would you agree that citizenship is only established after going through the process or is someone automatically a citizen (if born to a US citizen) with all the obligations that come with it (such as paying taxes and only entering the US on US documents) without going through the process (so no rights can be exercised)?

No I would not. Citizenship is established many different ways for people who do not have birth-right citizenship, however, automatic citizenship is established at birth with jus soli or American parent having a child overseas. No parent or U.S. government can take that away.

However, the process of obtaining rights for your citizenship...I'm not sure if this is what that is confusing.

Example...I have automatic citizenship at birth even if I was not born in the U.S., but to a U.S. parent in a Commonwealth nation who had no desire to bring up her children in the U.S. However, as an adult, way past the age of 18, I decided I wanted all of the rights and privileges of being a U.S. citizen, so I had to prove I was already a citizen even without being registered at the U.S. Consulate when I was born. Retrieving the info to prove that I was already a U.S. citizen was easy as I had my mother's U.S. birth certificate and proof that she lived there for years.

[O-H Anglophile]

Originally Posted by Somebody

You even talk about 'obtained citizenship through different means'

So, it seems it is not as clear cut. Many people have the rights from birth but only exercised those rights and became US citizen when the US government confirmed their elegibility and established their citizenship.

Question for people claiming their US citizenship (based on birth right) as adults: are you suppossed to file for taxes from age 18 and up when applying for citizenship?

I would imagine that once you claim your U.S. citizenship, you would need to file U.S. tax returns.

[jacqui24]

I should also point out the process for those to obtain the rights of citizenship that was established through birth is different than those of us that obtained citizenship after birth. While JuliannaVictoria filed paperwork so she can enjoy her citizenship rights, I had to go through a different process to get my citizenship. Entirely different.

That should hopefully clear it up.

[JuliannaVictoria]

Originally Posted by Somebody

You even talk about 'obtained citizenship through different means'

So, it seems it is not as clear cut. Many people have the rights from birth but only exercised those rights and became US citizen when the US government confirmed their elegibility and established their citizenship.

Question for people claiming their US citizenship (based on birth right) as adults: are you suppossed to file for taxes from age 18 and up when applying for citizenship?

In my case no. I was almost 30 when I had to prove citizenship and I only paid taxes from the time I was established, which means when I received my social security #.

[alvinking]

Originally Posted by JuliannaVictoria

[/B]


No I would not. Citizenship is established many different ways for people who do not have birth-right citizenship, however, automatic citizenship is established at birth with jus soli or American parent having a child overseas. No parent or U.S. government can take that away.

However, the process of obtaining rights for your citizenship...I'm not sure if this is what that is confusing.

Example...I have automatic citizenship at birth even if I was not born in the U.S., but to a U.S. parent in a Commonwealth nation who had no desire to bring up her children in the U.S. However, as an adult, way past the age of 18, I decided I wanted all of the rights and privileges of being a U.S. citizen, so I had to prove I was already a citizen even without being registered at the U.S. Consulate when I was born. Retrieving the info to prove that I was already a U.S. citizen was easy as I had my mother's U.S. birth certificate and proof that she lived there for years.

You had to prove that you had the Right to Claim citizenship at birth, your claim was vetted, you met the requirement, and your claim was approved

[JuliannaVictoria]

Originally Posted by alvinking

You had to prove that you had the Right to Claim citizenship at birth, your claim was vetted, you met the requirement, and your claim was approved

Precisely. I already had citizenship, however for me to be able to vote (the first time in the 2016 elections), I needed to provide documentation that proved I was already a citizen.

[O-H Anglophile]

Originally Posted by alvinking

You had to prove that you had the Right to Claim citizenship at birth, your claim was vetted, you met the requirement, and your claim was approved

But the point is--her mother did not go to the consulate or embassy and file paperwork so that JuliannaVictoria could claim citizenship. It was a different process than what you did for your child-to claim citizenship for him/her as a child. And also an acceptable method.

[JuliannaVictoria]

Originally Posted by jacqui24

I should also point out the process for those to obtain the rights of citizenship that was established through birth is different than those of us that obtained citizenship after birth. While JuliannaVictoria filed paperwork so she can enjoy her citizenship rights, I had to go through a different process to get my citizenship. Entirely different.

That should hopefully clear it up.

BINGO!!! Right on the money.

[alvinking]

Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile

But the point is--her mother did not go to the consulate or embassy and file paperwork so that JuliannaVictoria could claim citizenship. It was a different process than what you did for your child-to claim citizenship for him/her as a child.

It does not matter, it is the same, the basis what her mother US citizenship, her mother birth certificate. Her right to claim US citizenship derived from the fact that her mother was/is US citizen, so birth right

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by jacqui24

I think the quote below answers this question. Yes, they absolutely still have obligations as parents are warned failure to register a baby that meets the requirement can result in legal complications. If it's a choice, they wouldn't have listed this as a issue for those that fail to register the baby. They always use may because it's not guaranteed it'll happen. The reason being most don't get caught as there is no way for government to know. That's not happening here.


Birth of U.S. Citizens Abroad
Parents of a child born abroad to a U.S. citizen or citizens should apply for a CRBA [Consular Report of Birth Abroad of a Citizen of the United States of America] and/or a U.S. passport for the child as soon as possible. Failure to quickly document a child who meets the requirements for acquiring U.S. citizenship at birth may cause problems for the parents and the child when attempting to establish the child’s U.S. citizenship and eligibility for the rights and benefits of U.S. citizenship, including entry into the United States. By law, U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States.

The problems that are mentioned are problems that might occur IF (hence the 'may') they want to establish citizenship later on. If they don't, there don't seem to be any consequences.

[jacqui24]

Originally Posted by alvinking

It does not matter, it is the same, the basis what her mother US citizenship, her mother birth certificate. Her right to claim US citizenship derived from the fact that her mother was/is US citizen, so birth right

Exactly, birth right. Citizenship was acquired at birth whether it was documented with US government or not. Not when she claimed it. Naturalization is an entirely different process.

You can't claim something that's not there. If it's just a matter of a claim to enjoy the benefits, the actual citizenship was always there.

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by JuliannaVictoria

In my case no. I was almost 30 when I had to prove citizenship and I only paid taxes from the time I was established, which means when I received my social security #.

To me this is proof that the US government only considered you a citizen from the moment your citizenship was established. Had you been (according to the law) a citizen your whole life who only showed up after 12 years of adulthood, they would have taxed you for the missing years (as you would have neglected your obligations as citizen).

[O-H Anglophile]

Originally Posted by alvinking

It does not matter, it is the same, the basis what her mother US citizenship, her mother birth certificate. Her right to claim US citizenship derived from the fact that her mother was/is US citizen, so birth right

Perhaps, I (and others) misunderstood your original post then--I read it as you stating you were told you were legally required to register your child with the embassy or consulate or your child could not (ever) claim citizenship. That seems to not be what you meant.

If others also misunderstood, it could be why some of this discussion is muddled?

[jacqui24]

Originally Posted by Somebody

To me this is proof that the US government only considered you a citizen from the moment your citizenship was established. Had you been (according to the law) a citizen your whole life who only showed up after 12 years of adulthood, they would have taxed you for the missing years (as you would have neglected your obligations as citizen).

Speaking as a CPA, what the IRS can and do is different at times. It's hard for them to come after someone if they can't prove they knew and purposely avoided such. And certainly, they simply don't have the resources to chase down everyone. And honestly, this is just not worth it as most have paid their taxes in the country they resided in, and thus would be credited towards tax liability in US. This is something that's an established practice of IRS, but not related to citizenship. If you didn't have citizenship since birth, you can't claim birthright.

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile

But the point is--her mother did not go to the consulate or embassy and file paperwork so that JuliannaVictoria could claim citizenship. It was a different process than what you did for your child-to claim citizenship for him/her as a child. And also an acceptable method.

Nobody contested that there are different ways to establish citizenship. The issue on which we differ is whether someone IS a citizen when no claim has been filed or that that person only has the right to acquire citizenship.

Based on the confirmation that taxes only need to be paid after establishment and not from the moment the 'right to claim' started, it can be deduced that according to the US government you are only considered a citizen (with rights and obligations) from the moment your citizenship is formally established through an official process, not from the moment you acquired the right (in Meghan's child's case: just by birth to a US parent).

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Somebody

Your quote said that there could be problems in establishing citizenship. So apparently, the citizenship is only established (in the meaning of confirmed?!) when the parents or child actively seek this citizenship (and meet the requirements); acvording to your quote only then it is truly acquired and the rights that come with it can be exercised.

Not exactly. According to the quote, citizenship is truly acquired at birth but the rights can only be exercised after documentation is actively sought and granted.

Here are the U.S. Department of State quotes (and links to the whole texts) again, as I posted them pages earlier in the thread.


Birth of U.S. Citizens Abroad

Parents of a child born abroad to a U.S. citizen or citizens should apply for a CRBA [Consular Report of Birth Abroad of a Citizen of the United States of America] and/or a U.S. passport for the child as soon as possible. Failure to quickly document a child who meets the requirements for acquiring U.S. citizenship at birth may cause problems for the parents and the child when attempting to establish the child’s U.S. citizenship and eligibility for the rights and benefits of U.S. citizenship, including entry into the United States. By law, U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States.

Acquisition of U.S. Citizenship by a Child Born Abroad

Birth Abroad in Wedlock to a U.S. Citizen and an Alien

A person born abroad in wedlock to a U.S. citizen and an alien acquires U.S. citizenship at birth if the U.S. citizen parent has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions prior to the person’s birth for the period required by the statute in effect when the person was born (INA 301(g), formerly INA 301(a)(7).) For birth on or after November 14, 1986, the U.S. citizen parent must have been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for five years prior to the person’s birth, at least two of which were after the age of fourteen. [...]

Both quotes state clearly that the citizenship is acquired "at birth".

In the first quote, "establish" is used with the meaning of "prove". You may be familiar with the legal term "establish beyond a reasonable doubt".

Potential problems with entry into the U.S. are also discussed in the first quote. These problems are possible only because undocumented citizens are nonetheless considered citizens in law. If citizenship were only acquired after active documentation, the undocumented child would be considered a foreign citizen only, and the rule prohibiting U.S. citizens from entering United States territory on a foreign passport would pose no problems for them.

Originally Posted by alvinking

Since people on this forum tend to post partial information
This is the whole text from the US Department of State, Bureau of Consular Affairs

Birth of U.S. Citizens Abroad
A child born abroad to a U.S. citizen parent or parents may acquire U.S. citizenship at birth if certain statutory requirements are met. The child’s parents should contact the nearest U.S. embassy or consulate to apply for a Consular Report of Birth Abroad of a Citizen of the United States of America (CRBA) to document that the child is a U.S. citizen. If the U.S. embassy or consulate determines that the child acquired U.S. citizenship at birth, a consular officer will approve the CRBA application and the Department of State will issue a CRBA, also called a Form FS-240, in the child’s name.

According to U.S. law, a CRBA is proof of U.S. citizenship and may be used to obtain a U.S. passport and register for school, among other purposes.

The child’s parents may choose to apply for a U.S. passport for the child at the same time that they apply for a CRBA. Parents may also choose to apply only for a U.S. passport for the child. Like a CRBA, a full validity U.S. passport is proof of U.S. citizenship.

Parents of a child born abroad to a U.S. citizen or citizens should apply for a CRBA and/or a U.S. passport for the child as soon as possible. Failure to quickly document a child who meets the requirements for acquiring U.S. citizenship at birth may cause problems for the parents and the child when attempting to establish the child’s U.S. citizenship and eligibility for the rights and benefits of U.S. citizenship, including entry into the United States. By law, U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States.

This text is the same as the text of the article "Birth of U.S. Citizens Abroad" linked to in my earlier post (message #1009, reposted above). Thank you for posting it again. In the first paragraph, the text states that citizenship may be acquired at birth (not upon documentation) if statutory requirements are met, with the implication that it may not be acquired at birth if statutory requirements are not met. Further, it describes the CRBA as proof (not acquisition) of U.S. citizenship.

[jacqui24]

Originally Posted by Somebody

Nobody contested that there are different ways to establish citizenship. The issue on which we differ is whether someone IS a citizen when no claim has been filed or that that person only has the right to acquire citizenship.

Based on the confirmation that taxes only need to be paid after establishment and not from the moment the 'right to claim' started, it can be deduced that according to the US government you are only considered a citizen (with rights and obligations) from the moment your citizenship is formally established through an official process, not from the moment you acquired the right (in Meghan's child's case: just by birth to a US parent).

IRS is a government agency that's responsible for revenue. A standard of practice in that department does not equal citizenship or not. Citizenship's under USCIS purview. The law is very clear, citizenship is acquired through birth.

You can't claim something unless you have it in the first place.