Meghan Markle: Citizenship and Religious Conversion

[alvinking]

Since people on this forum tend to post partial information
This is the whole text from the US Department of State, Bureau of Consular Affairs

Birth of U.S. Citizens Abroad
A child born abroad to a U.S. citizen parent or parents may acquire U.S. citizenship at birth if certain statutory requirements are met. The child’s parents should contact the nearest U.S. embassy or consulate to apply for a Consular Report of Birth Abroad of a Citizen of the United States of America (CRBA) to document that the child is a U.S. citizen. If the U.S. embassy or consulate determines that the child acquired U.S. citizenship at birth, a consular officer will approve the CRBA application and the Department of State will issue a CRBA, also called a Form FS-240, in the child’s name.

According to U.S. law, a CRBA is proof of U.S. citizenship and may be used to obtain a U.S. passport and register for school, among other purposes.

The child’s parents may choose to apply for a U.S. passport for the child at the same time that they apply for a CRBA. Parents may also choose to apply only for a U.S. passport for the child. Like a CRBA, a full validity U.S. passport is proof of U.S. citizenship.

Parents of a child born abroad to a U.S. citizen or citizens should apply for a CRBA and/or a U.S. passport for the child as soon as possible. Failure to quickly document a child who meets the requirements for acquiring U.S. citizenship at birth may cause problems for the parents and the child when attempting to establish the child’s U.S. citizenship and eligibility for the rights and benefits of U.S. citizenship, including entry into the United States. By law, U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States.

[lucien]

Originally Posted by muriel

I think in the long term a dual UK - US citizenship would be inappropriate for a member of the BRF. If she is to represent the UK in even a supporting role, she should, IMO, be willing to commit to UK citizenship only. I would assume she would have agreed to this prior to the announcement of an engagement.

Apart from the issue of commitment and optics, the BRF would certainly not want any of their finances being looked at by the US Tax authorities; completely unnecessary, IMO.

Hear Hear Hear indeed!!

[JuliannaVictoria]

Originally Posted by alvinking

Since people on this forum tend to post partial information
This is the whole text from the US Department of State, Bureau of Consular Affairs

Birth of U.S. Citizens Abroad
A child born abroad to a U.S. citizen parent or parents may acquire U.S. citizenship at birth if certain statutory requirements are met. The child’s parents should contact the nearest U.S. embassy or consulate to apply for a Consular Report of Birth Abroad of a Citizen of the United States of America (CRBA) to document that the child is a U.S. citizen. If the U.S. embassy or consulate determines that the child acquired U.S. citizenship at birth, a consular officer will approve the CRBA application and the Department of State will issue a CRBA, also called a Form FS-240, in the child’s name.

According to U.S. law, a CRBA is proof of U.S. citizenship and may be used to obtain a U.S. passport and register for school, among other purposes.

The child’s parents may choose to apply for a U.S. passport for the child at the same time that they apply for a CRBA. Parents may also choose to apply only for a U.S. passport for the child. Like a CRBA, a full validity U.S. passport is proof of U.S. citizenship.

Parents of a child born abroad to a U.S. citizen or citizens should apply for a CRBA and/or a U.S. passport for the child as soon as possible. Failure to quickly document a child who meets the requirements for acquiring U.S. citizenship at birth may cause problems for the parents and the child when attempting to establish the child’s U.S. citizenship and eligibility for the rights and benefits of U.S. citizenship, including entry into the United States. By law, U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States.

That's all good and well, but you shouldn't discard the people here who have experience with USCIS and their policies. Again, American agencies are a little bit more flexible than others in my experience.

Also, what you posted above has many exceptions to the rule. Without putting too much of my own info out there, I am dual citizen, not born in America, and I've gone through the process on my own without a lawyer, and my case was pretty straight forward with some minor hiccups.

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

Could you clarify what you mean by "established"? My understanding of the U.S. Department of State quotes is that according to American law, the citizenship itself is automatically established at birth, and only the documentation of it must be "claimed" by the parents.

Your quote said that there could be problems in establishing citizenship. So apparently, the citizenship is only established (in the meaning of confirmed?!) when the parents or child actively seek this citizenship (and meet the requirements); acvording to your quote only then it is truly acquired and the rights that come with it can be exercised.

Failure to quickly document a child who meets the requirements for acquiring U.S. citizenship at birth may cause problems for the parents and the child when attempting to establish the child’s U.S. citizenship and eligibility for the rights and benefits of U.S. citizenship.

So, my interpretation is that Meghan's child will meet the requirements for acquiring US citizenship but whether citizenship will be formally established (with the rights and benefits but also the obligations attached to it) will depend on Meghan actively documenting her child as such.

[jacqui24]

Originally Posted by alvinking

Since people on this forum tend to post partial information
This is the whole text from the US Department of State, Bureau of Consular Affairs

Birth of U.S. Citizens Abroad
A child born abroad to a U.S. citizen parent or parents may acquire U.S. citizenship at birth if certain statutory requirements are met. The child’s parents should contact the nearest U.S. embassy or consulate to apply for a Consular Report of Birth Abroad of a Citizen of the United States of America (CRBA) to document that the child is a U.S. citizen. If the U.S. embassy or consulate determines that the child acquired U.S. citizenship at birth, a consular officer will approve the CRBA application and the Department of State will issue a CRBA, also called a Form FS-240, in the child’s name.

According to U.S. law, a CRBA is proof of U.S. citizenship and may be used to obtain a U.S. passport and register for school, among other purposes.

The child’s parents may choose to apply for a U.S. passport for the child at the same time that they apply for a CRBA. Parents may also choose to apply only for a U.S. passport for the child. Like a CRBA, a full validity U.S. passport is proof of U.S. citizenship.

Parents of a child born abroad to a U.S. citizen or citizens should apply for a CRBA and/or a U.S. passport for the child as soon as possible. Failure to quickly document a child who meets the requirements for acquiring U.S. citizenship at birth may cause problems for the parents and the child when attempting to establish the child’s U.S. citizenship and eligibility for the rights and benefits of U.S. citizenship, including entry into the United States. By law, U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States.

They also use may to hedge themselves against certain rare exceptions that they may or may not be aware of. There isn't a lot of special circumstance about this case that can say this child isn't a US citizen through the normal laws in existence.

And like we said before, and as mentioned by your own post here, this is proof of citizenship. Not the issue of citizenship or the eligibility of it, in the first place. A child born in the US is a US citizen as soon as it's born, even before the birth certificate is issued. Good luck telling someone their newborn isn't US citizen until the hospital issues a birth certificate.

[alvinking]

Originally Posted by JuliannaVictoria

That's all good and well, but you shouldn't discard the people here who have experience with USCIS and their policies. Again, American agencies are a little bit more flexible than others in my experience.

Also, what you posted above has many exceptions to the rule. Without putting too much of my own info out there, I am dual citizen, not born in America, and I've gone through the process on my own without a lawyer, and my case was pretty straight forward with some minor hiccups.

Well when you say That's all good and well, but you shouldn't discard the people here who have experience with USCIS and their policies, that is exactly what you have been doing. I told you that i was in the exact same situation a foreign national french in my case french, (Harry is a UK citizen) married to a US citizen (in Harry case Meghan) who has had a child overseas. I have experience the US consulate for this exact reason.

[jacqui24]

Originally Posted by Somebody

Your quote said that there could be problems in establishing citizenship. So apparently, the citizenship is only established (in the meaning of confirmed?!) when the parents or child actively seek this citizenship (and meet the requirements); acvording to your quote only then it is truly acquired and the rights that come with it can be exercised.

So, my interpretation is that Meghan's child will meet the requirements for acquiring US citizenship but whether citizenship will be formally established (with the rights and benefits but also the obligations attached to it) will depend on Meghan actively documenting her child as such.

Not really. I think there is a difference between citizenship and the proof of citizenship. Citizenship is there regardless. Proof of citizenship is what is obtained. In this case, it's not just the parents. US Government can come after a citizen for liabilities regardless of documents. In most cases, they obviously won't as someone talked about above because they won't be discovered. This is not a luxury Baby Sussex have.

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by jacqui24

You went through one way of obtaining documentation related to citizenship. It's not the only way, and it certainly isn't the citizenship that was established. The law is spelled out very clearly on this.

See the quote anove. According to the US it is the citizenship that is established. The child will meet the criteria but will only be a recognized US citizen when there is documentation. As long as the child is not registered as a US citizen, the child is free to enter the US on his/her British passport. That's how it works in the US (and many other countries).

Citizenship is treated as a right not an obligation (which is not the case in all countries; some countries require anyone born from a parent with that nationality to also be a citizen of that country without the option to opt out).

[JuliannaVictoria]

Originally Posted by alvinking

Well when you say That's all good and well, but you shouldn't discard the people here who have experience with USCIS and their policies, that is exactly what you have been doing. I told you that i was in the exact same situation a foreign national french in my case french, (Harry is a UK citizen) married to a US citizen (in Harry case Meghan) who has had a child overseas. I have experience the US consulate for this exact reason.

I'm not discarding you or your experience, but you stating this is the only way it happens is false. Your experience with the Consulate in France is different to another person's experience.

P.S. I have personal dealings with this and could advise you if you wish in a DM.

[jacqui24]

Originally Posted by Somebody

See the quote anove. According to the US it is the citizenship that is established. The child will meet the criteria but will only be a recognized US citizen when there is documentation. As long as the child is not registered as a US citizen, the child is free to enter the US on his/her British passport. That's how it works in the US (and many other countries).

According to state department, citizenship is acquired at the time of birth, not when documentation is established.

Birth Abroad in Wedlock to a U.S. Citizen and an Alien
A person born abroad in wedlock to a U.S. citizen and an alien acquires U.S. citizenship at birth if the U.S. citizen parent has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions prior to the person’s birth for the period required by the statute in effect when the person was born (INA 301(g), formerly INA 301(a)(7).) For birth on or after November 14, 1986, the U.S. citizen parent must have been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for five years prior to the person’s birth, at least two of which were after the age of fourteen. For birth between December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986, the U.S. citizen parent must have been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for 10 years prior to the person’s birth, at least five of which were after the age of 14 for the person to acquire U.S. citizenship at birth. The U.S. citizen parent must be the genetic or the gestational parent and the legal parent of the child under local law at the time and place of the child’s birth to transmit U.S. citizenship.

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by JuliannaVictoria

I'm not discarding you or your experience, but you stating this is the only way it happens is false. Your experience with the Consulate in France is different to another person's experience.

P.S. I have personal dealings with this and could advise you if you wish in a DM.

I don't think Alvinking needs advice on a personal situation that has been solved but feel free to share exactly what is wrong with the previous statements on acquiring/establishing US citizenship..

[loonytick]

Originally Posted by alvinking

Since people on this forum tend to post partial information
This is the whole text from the US Department of State, Bureau of Consular Affairs

Birth of U.S. Citizens Abroad
A child born abroad to a U.S. citizen parent or parents may acquire U.S. citizenship at birth if certain statutory requirements are met. The child’s parents should contact the nearest U.S. embassy or consulate to apply for a Consular Report of Birth Abroad of a Citizen of the United States of America (CRBA) to document that the child is a U.S. citizen. If the U.S. embassy or consulate determines that the child acquired U.S. citizenship at birth, a consular officer will approve the CRBA application and the Department of State will issue a CRBA, also called a Form FS-240, in the child’s name.

According to U.S. law, a CRBA is proof of U.S. citizenship and may be used to obtain a U.S. passport and register for school, among other purposes.

The child’s parents may choose to apply for a U.S. passport for the child at the same time that they apply for a CRBA. Parents may also choose to apply only for a U.S. passport for the child. Like a CRBA, a full validity U.S. passport is proof of U.S. citizenship.

Parents of a child born abroad to a U.S. citizen or citizens should apply for a CRBA and/or a U.S. passport for the child as soon as possible. Failure to quickly document a child who meets the requirements for acquiring U.S. citizenship at birth may cause problems for the parents and the child when attempting to establish the child’s U.S. citizenship and eligibility for the rights and benefits of U.S. citizenship, including entry into the United States. By law, U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States.

I think the thing that catches folks on whether or not registering must happen is that the US government never clearly says “you’ll be in trouble if you don’t claim your citizenship” in that summary of the law, but rather takes the tack of saying that if you want to enjoy the protections and rights of citizenship down the line it’s best to just handle everything at the outset. That “should” doesn’t read the same as “you must register, no ifs ands or buts.”

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by jacqui24

According to state department, citizenship is acquired at the time of birth, not when documentation is established.

Birth Abroad in Wedlock to a U.S. Citizen and an Alien
A person born abroad in wedlock to a U.S. citizen and an alien acquires U.S. citizenship at birth if the U.S. citizen parent has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions prior to the person’s birth for the period required by the statute in effect when the person was born (INA 301(g), formerly INA 301(a)(7).) For birth on or after November 14, 1986, the U.S. citizen parent must have been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for five years prior to the person’s birth, at least two of which were after the age of fourteen. For birth between December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986, the U.S. citizen parent must have been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for 10 years prior to the person’s birth, at least five of which were after the age of 14 for the person to acquire U.S. citizenship at birth. The U.S. citizen parent must be the genetic or the gestational parent and the legal parent of the child under local law at the time and place of the child’s birth to transmit U.S. citizenship.

I am sure you also read Alvinking's quote from the US government. So, it seems they aren't very clear in their communication. My interpretation is that if the child upon registering is determined to be eligible (so citizenship is established) it is considered to have been a US citizen from birth.

It would be interesting to see what the State department states about a 'failure' to register.

Originally Posted by loonytick

I think the thing that catches folks on whether or not registering must happen is that the US government never clearly says “you’ll be in trouble if you don’t claim your citizenship” in that summary of the law, but rather takes the tack of saying that if you want to enjoy the protections and rights of citizenship down the line it’s best to just handle everything at the outset. That “should” doesn’t read the same as “you must register, no ifs ands or buts.”

Exactly. The US government treats it a a right. Not as an obligation. If you want to enjoy the privileges you should register asap, If you don't you cannot enjoy the rights of being a US citizen.

[jacqui24]

Originally Posted by Somebody

I am sure you also read Alvinking's quote from the US government. So, it seems they aren't very clear in their communication. My interpretation is that if the child upon registering is determined to be eligible (so citizenship is established) it is considered to have been a US citizen from birth.

It would be interesting to see what the State department states about a 'failure' to register.

It's not a one way street. The law is very clear on when the citizenship is acquired. It's matter of documenting with the government, and the government can absolutely come after you even if you aren't registered. They just usually don't find out about it with normal folks.

Failure to register itself isn't punishable by law since the law doesn't say you have to do so within a certain period of time. But things that you do as a result might. For example, entering the US on a British passport or failure to file necessary tax paperwork. They carry different penalties. For the most part, it's more money and headache to resolve, but it'd be hard to claim ignorance of the law in this case.

Originally Posted by Somebody

Exactly. The US government treats it a a right. Not as an obligation. If you want to enjoy the privileges you should register asap, If you don't you cannot enjoy the rights of being a US citizen.

Citizenship is both a right and responsibility. We absolutely have responsibilities as citizens.

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by JuliannaVictoria

Nothing in his statement was incorrect, I was only stating that it was not the only way to do things as they were suggesting. Again, the American system is very flexible.

So, the general statement was: someone is only a citizen after the formal process has been followed to establish citizenship.

Specifically the options to register at birth and applying for a US passports were previously mentioned but those are only examples of ways to establish citizenship (which of course can only be done if you meet the criteria on the basis of which you apply).

What are the 'other ways' you are talking about?

[jacqui24]

Originally Posted by Somebody

So, the general statement was: someone is only a citizen after the formal process has been followed to establish citizenship.

What are the 'other ways' you are talking about?

Someone is absolutely not just a citizen after the formal process has been followed. They have PROOF of citizenship after the formal process have been followed. There are different ways to obtain that proof.

As we've seen in this thread, people have obtained citizenship through different means. Alvinking obtained documentation on behalf of a child that's minor. JuliannaVictoria obtained documentation for herself as adult. Both are through birth. It's not like she was never a citizen, but all of sudden became a citizen as a adult. Birth means birth.

[O-H Anglophile]

Originally Posted by Somebody

So, the general statement was: someone is only a citizen after the formal process has been followed to establish citizenship.

What are the 'other ways' you are talking about?

As I read it, a parent is not required to go to the embassy or consul and register their child with the U.S. and claim their child's citizenship unless they wish to do so. The child can do the paperwork as an adult should they wish to claim their citizenship and obtain a U.S. passport.

[JuliannaVictoria]

Originally Posted by Somebody

So, the general statement was: someone is only a citizen after the formal process has been followed to establish citizenship.

What are the 'other ways' you are talking about?

I was responding to the Info they posted from DoS and USCIS website. While that is the general practice, it's not the only way.

Also, citizenship is established:
1. at birth (if born on American soil or jus soli)
2. born to an American living overseas

Wanting the privileges of citizenship (voting, passport, etc) requires that you go through certain procedures.

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by jacqui24

Citizenship is both a right and responsibility. We absolutely have responsibilities as citizens.

I fully agree. The US government however only stresses the rights in their communication.

In this case I was talking about whether it is an obligation to be a US citizen (when you are already a citizen of a different country), your understanding is that it is an obligation (that comes with rights), my understanding is that it is a right that you may exercise (and once you do so it comes with rights and obligations).

Interesting stuff

Originally Posted by JuliannaVictoria

I was responding to the Info they posted from DoS and USCIS website. While that is the general practice, it's not the only way.

Also, citizenship is established:
1. at birth (if born on American soil or jus soli)
2. born to an American living overseas

Wanting the privileges of citizenship (voting, passport, etc) requires that you go through certain procedures.

None of this is contrary to what alvinking said as far as I can see. Number 2 was even exactly the situation discussed. So, I am still confused as to what you think was missing from the previous posts.

Would you agree that citizenship is only established after going through the process or is someone automatically a citizen (if born to a US citizen) with all the obligations that come with it (such as paying taxes and only entering the US on US documents) without going through the process (so no rights can be exercised)?

[ACO]

Originally Posted by carlota

how are you so sure the child won't perform royal duties? i wouldn't assume so too quickly. charles' has 2 brothers and a sister, his 2 brothers decided their kids would have royal titles. out of their issue, beatrice and eugenie perform duties on behalf of the queen (even if they have their own careers in parallel), with zara/peter not being given titles or performing royal duties and edward's kids being too young yet to know if they will. however, in william and harry's generation there's only the two of them - H&M's kids may well have some degree of involvement in royal activities.

Harry's kids are not HRH and by the time Harry's kids are of age, so will their cousins be. They will take on that responsibility as it their actual duty. Not the Sussex kids. Will they do things here and their like the Yorks? Sure. They'll have engagements with their parents and might attend something with their grandfather (though likely rare). That is not the same as being a working royal which they will not be. And can't even guarantee they will do those kind of engagements either. Seems to me the Sussexes want them to have as normal of a life as possible.