Meghan Markle: Citizenship and Religious Conversion

[Denville]

Originally Posted by Lady Reem

She had a close friend at Uni whose parents were pastors and lived nearby but off campus. And she used to spend her weekends along with her friend attending their church services. Pretty weird for a person ‘not attracted to the faith’ or wtte, according to some.
Went to a christian school, too.

Being baptised as a child does not make one a true christian.

No but if one is brought up with some religious instruction, and attends some services, it doesn't make one a Christian either. And if she had a real interest in becoming a Christian, she would almost certainly have joined a church, on a regular basis or been baptised... by now....

[Osipi]

Originally Posted by Denville

No but if one is brought up with some religious instruction, and attends some services, it doesn't make one a Christian either. And if she had a real interest in becoming a Christian, she would almost certainly have joined a church, on a regular basis or been baptised... by now....

I disagree. There's a difference in living a spiritual life and practicing and belonging to a Christian denomination. I was baptized in the Roman Catholic church as a baby, attended RC schools for my education and don't see myself as Christian today at all. I am a spiritual person with a personal relationship with my Creator but I don't identify with any religion whatsoever.

Meghan made a choice to join a religious denomination as it was her right to do so and approved by the Archbishop of Canterbury.

[Lady Reem]

Originally Posted by Denville

No but if one is brought up with some religious instruction, and attends some services, it doesn't make one a Christian either. And if she had a real interest in becoming a Christian, she would almost certainly have joined a church, on a regular basis or been baptised... by now....

How many royal brides were regular church goers before marriage? You haven’t a clue what Meghan’s church going habits were, and btw not all christian denominations require baptism as a must before one is accepted into the christian church and it doesn’t make one less a child of God either. The pews of churches across the Uk lie empty, most people don’t attend church as before, say like 30 years ago. That is a fact. So for someone that wasn’t raised in the faith according to some, at least she took it upon herself to attend church services at Uni when she had no need to. Her faith is between her and her God and a loving welcoming Christ who thankfully wasn’t a judgemental sanctimonious crow. There’s much to be learned from him, following his examples instead of sitting on high horses pointing the finger every frikking time.

[Cocoasneeze]

Originally Posted by Denville

No but if one is brought up with some religious instruction, and attends some services, it doesn't make one a Christian either. And if she had a real interest in becoming a Christian, she would almost certainly have joined a church, on a regular basis or been baptised... by now....

That sounds like a contradiction. Attending services doesn't make one a Christian, but if she had interest in becoming Christian, she would've joined a church on regular basis. So which one is it?

We have no clue how often Meghan attended a church, and tbh, we don't need to know. Her religious beliefs are her personal issue, and questioning her religious sincerity sounds quite judgmental, and un-Christian like.

[Osipi]

I propose that we no longer speculate or put our own spins on what Meghan's joining the CoE as an active member means. Like Meghan's eventual applying for British citizenship, these are steps that she has/will take out of her own free will without coercion and we should just accept these steps as fact.

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by Cocoasneeze

That sounds like a contradiction. Attending services doesn't make one a Christian, but if she had interest in becoming Christian, she would've joined a church on regular basis. So which one is it?

We have no clue how often Meghan attended a church, and tbh, we don't need to know. Her religious beliefs are her personal issue, and questioning her religious sincerity sounds quite judgmental, and un-Christian like.

Formally joining a church, in many mainstream denominations, requires being baptized. One cannot fully participate in church services, for example take communion, without being baptized first.

Denville's point is correct then. If Meghan had had an interest in being a full member of a mainstream Christian church before, she would have been already baptized. When she expressed a desire to become a member of the CoE, she was told to be baptized and confirmed.

[princess carmen]

Since no one here can see and read Meghan's hear no one knows what she feels. Yes for the Marriage she had to join the church but that doesn't mean anything it takes some people a while to find a religion they are comfortable with .

[Osipi]

The thing is that Meghan could have married Harry without being baptized and confirmed in the CoE. Its not required. It was her choice to do so. What her reasons for going through the baptism and confirmation though is not for public consumption.

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by Osipi

The thing is that Meghan could have married Harry without being baptized and confirmed in the CoE. Its not required. It was her choice to do so. What her reasons for going through the baptism and confirmation though is not for public consumption.

Although technically not required, I believe it would be naive to assume that Meghan could marry into the BRF without joining the CoE. The CoE is still a state church and princesses of the Royal House are accordingly expected to be members thereof. Similarly, it was expected that Henrik, Mary and Marie would join the Lutheran Church of Denmark.

Maxima didn't join the Dutch Reformed church (or rather its successor, the PKN), but the situation is different in the Netherlands in the sense that, although the Orange-Nassaus are personally identified with the Dutch Reformed religion, it is not an established state church like in England or Denmark. Even so, it must have taken a lot of personal conviction for Maxima not to convert, and I commend her for that.

[Mbruno]

To be clear, I am not questioning Meghan's sincerity. I am just saying that, whether she genuinely wanted to join the CoE or not, she would probably have to do it anyway as Prince Harry's wife. Harry is a senior royal and one of the two sons of the future king. Both he and his wife will always be full-time royals and will be intimately associated with the state church.

[Lady Reem]

Originally Posted by Mbruno

Formally joining a church, in many mainstream denominations, requires being baptized. One cannot fully participate in church services, for example take communion, without being baptized first.

Denville's point is correct then. If Meghan had had an interest in being a full member of a mainstream Christian church before, she would have been already baptized. When she expressed a desire to become a member of the CoE, she was told to be baptized and confirmed.

Oh really, were you there with her when she was told and if not how can you know that for certain when that hasn’t been reported anywhere? If it has then please provide a link. Who is to say she didn’t decide of her own accord to go the whole hog re joining the CoE?

@Osipi ...well put, succinct and factual. Thank you. Additionally, Princess Michael of Kent was/is also a princess of the UK when she married the Prince and still maintains her Catholic root long before the rules about Catholicism and the British throne were changed. The world hasn’t spun off its axis, as yet.

“Denville's point is correct then. If Meghan had had an interest in being a full member of a mainstream Christian church before, she would have been already baptized”

“To be clear, I am not questioning Meghan's sincerity. I am just saying that, whether she genuinely wanted to join the CoE or not, she would probably have to do it anyway as Prince Harry's wife.”

And yes you are questioning Meghan’s sincerity in spite of your denial in post #876

[MARG]

Originally Posted by princess carmen

Since no one here can see and read Meghan's hear no one knows what she feels. Yes for the Marriage she had to join the church but that doesn't mean anything it takes some people a while to find a religion they are comfortable with .

I am bemused by the repeated statements that Meghan had to join the CoE. That is straight out untrue. Any public services that the BRF attend such as Commonwealth Day, various Memorial services, etc. do not include Holy Communion.

Even on Christmas Day, the family goes down to the Church for Holy Communion at the early service and late morning returns in all their finery for a family service.

In short, throughout the year the majority of the BRF attend church regularly and privately so there was no need, let alone requirement unless Meghan felt it was for herself. I understand she attended less formal churches with friends in Toronto and am aware that many do not have a requirement for Confirmation, etc. It makes them no lesser places of worship nor their parishioners those seeking God's grace.

There is something unwholesome about the alacrity with which some are suggesting Meghan's choice to formally join the CofE is a giant con. I can only wonder what makes it so important that Meghan's formalising her faith should be belittled, smeared and rubbished. Does it pose a threat?

[Rudolph]

Why be the odd person out. There is a state religion and the The Queen is it’s leader
There is all kinds of upside to joining, so why not do it, as she is.

[Osipi]

Kind of reminds me of my mother always saying to me "if everyone jumped off the Empire State Building, is that a reason for you to do it too?"

Maybe I am the odd one out because when it comes to church, worship and spiritual beliefs and practice, I believe its something that's totally personal and not like joining in the Starbuck's flavor of the month club with a membership card and all. 10 punches on your church card gets your foot in the Pearly Gates and a bottle of wing softener.

I choose to believe that Meghan's actions in being baptized and confirmed in the CoE stems solely because it was something she honestly felt she wanted to do and not because its a "state" religion.

[Iluvbertie]

Originally Posted by Mbruno

Although technically not required, I believe it would be naive to assume that Meghan could marry into the BRF without joining the CoE. The CoE is still a state church and princesses of the Royal House are accordingly expected to be members thereof. Similarly, it was expected that Henrik, Mary and Marie would join the Lutheran Church of Denmark.

Maxima didn't join the Dutch Reformed church (or rather its successor, the PKN), but the situation is different in the Netherlands in the sense that, although the Orange-Nassaus are personally identified with the Dutch Reformed religion, it is not an established state church like in England or Denmark. Even so, it must have taken a lot of personal conviction for Maxima not to convert, and I commend her for that.

Princess Michael of Kent didn't convert from Roman Catholicism when she married into the CoE - no one expected her to do so and she became a Princess on her marriage.

I can find no mention of whether The Duchess of Gloucester ever become CoE or whether she remained Lutheran.

Princess Marina of Greece had both a CoE and Greek Orthodox wedding suggesting that she remained Orthodox - at least at the time of her wedding.

Then there is the Duchess of Kent who converted away from CoE - and is still a Princess of the UK.

There is no requirement ... the most recent law on this matter, 2015, even says that the religion or denomination of the spouse no longer affects the rights of the born royal so that Prince Michael of Kent was restored to the line of succession.

[Rudolph]

Of course no requirements when you’re in the double digits of succession but closer to the throne and eyebrows would be raised. Not that Harry’s children would ever be on the throne but his (catholic) children would be in communion with a different church than his granny. I think that would garner comment.

[Osipi]

Originally Posted by Mbruno

In addition. all canons of the CoE have to be ratified by the UK parliament. People may not like the term “state church” and choose to use the more benign designation “ established church”, but a church that is regulated by the State legislature and whose supreme governor is the Head of State is a state church.

The more I think about it, I remember how, when and why the Church of England was established and I think having the monarch as Supreme Governor and its being regulated by Parliament was directed more towards keeping the Roman Catholics out than anything else.

When it comes to the royal family, the main concern is that in order to wear the Crown as monarch, one has to be adherent to the established Church of England. As it stands now, spouses can be whatever floats their boat when it comes to their religious leanings.

[M. Payton]

Originally Posted by Osipi

Kind of reminds me of my mother always saying to me "if everyone jumped off the Empire State Building, is that a reason for you to do it too?"

Maybe I am the odd one out because when it comes to church, worship and spiritual beliefs and practice, I believe its something that's totally personal and not like joining in the Starbuck's flavor of the month club with a membership card and all. 10 punches on your church card gets your foot in the Pearly Gates and a bottle of wing softener.

I choose to believe that Meghan's actions in being baptized and confirmed in the CoE stems solely because it was something she honestly felt she wanted to do and not because its a "state" religion.

I just thought after reading this thread and I have to say I agree with my sister's comment above, just why in the heck is it anybody's darn business what Meghan does in regards to her personal/private choice of religion? It is NOT OUR BUSINESS who she or anyone else's worships or joins what church. It is nobody's business here, everyone here what church you belong to or not and don't give me that she is now going to be a member of the BRF and that makes it okay to meddle in her affairs....it sure in the heck does not! Religion is entirely a personal and private matter with each person and their choice of creator, it is not up to anyone here to say what she should do or not.......I grew up in the Lutheran, went to sunday schools, all church events and then taught Sunday school when older, today I believe strongly that my creator and I have our own personal relationship that is NOBODY'S business and the same goes for Meghan.

She has enough on her plate at the moment and lots of stress to go with it, to be concerned about religion .......she I believe is one very strong intelligent and can deal with what ever is thrown at her.....so give her a break for you might not like it if this was thrown at you the way it is thrown at her........

[jacqui24]

Originally Posted by M. Payton

I just thought after reading this thread and I have to say I agree with my sister's comment above, just why in the heck is it anybody's darn business what Meghan does in regards to her personal/private choice of religion? It is NOT OUR BUSINESS who she or anyone else's worships or joins what church. It is nobody's business here, everyone here what church you belong to or not and don't give me that she is now going to be a member of the BRF and that makes it okay to meddle in her affairs....it sure in the heck does not! Religion is entirely a personal and private matter with each person and their choice of creator, it is not up to anyone here to say what she should do or not.......I grew up in the Lutheran, went to sunday schools, all church events and then taught Sunday school when older, today I believe strongly that my creator and I have our own personal relationship that is NOBODY'S business and the same goes for Meghan.

She has enough on her plate at the moment and lots of stress to go with it, to be concerned about religion .......she I believe is one very strong intelligent and can deal with what ever is thrown at her.....so give her a break for you might not like it if this was thrown at you the way it is thrown at her........

I’ll co-sign and make that three. It’s quite uncomfortable to question someone’s religion, especially someone we don’t personally know. It’s all fun and amusement to gossip about some supposed rumors, but even the tabloids haven’t gone that far.

I know people will say this is fair game because the monarch is the head of Church of England, I disagree. The law is very clear on this. Harry keeps his place in line to the throne regardless of his wife’s religion. If they thought it was that important the senior royals only be married to someone in the Anglican Church, they would’ve made that into law when they changed the law. They thought of keeping the first six in line to require the Queen’s permission to marry, they could require the same for religion or someone would be out of line of succession. Clearly, they didn’t find it necessary.

[Lady Nimue]

Meghan has for sure bitten off a lot culturally, and we even think we are 'the same'. We aren't as all this demonstrates. It's a lot on her. Thankfully it is a love match and appears solid (though if one goes on-line elsewhere the naysayers are harrowing). She's on an express train. Sending her good juju!