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  #801  
Old 03-09-2018, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by royal rob View Post
I do remember that episode ha ha. Yep agree. The one thing we will never know is would she have done this if she wasn’t marrying Harry I doubt it
Guess we can say the same about all of the females who have married into European monarchies who have done the same as Meghan can we? Kate Middleton, Autumn Kelly, Crown Princess Mary, Princes Marie, Countess Alexandra, Queen Letizia etc etc etc
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  #802  
Old 03-09-2018, 06:12 PM
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Yes, for most of them (but why only females?). You seem to think that those who suggest that Meghan's motivation to join the Anglican church is related to her marriage to her prince wouldn't say so for others. However, as already has been pointed out, of course this same issue was raised previously.

Although the distance between previous and royal life in this respect differ quite a bit between:
- those who changed between protestant denominations while already being confirmed within their church of origin (Mary?)
- those who were already members of the same church but not yet confirmed (Catherine) (or confirmed but clearly not an active member as shown by not marrying within their church the first time) (Letizia)
- those who changed from orthodox to catholic or the other way around (Sofia)
- those who changed from catholic to protestant or the other way around (Autumn, Henrik, Marie)
- those who were a member of a christian denomination (or non-churched) converting to Islam (most westerners marrying into Middle or Far Eastern royal families who adhere to Islam, incl recently Dennis Verbaas)
- those who never were a church member of any church and only joined upon the prospect of marriage (Meghan)

In addition, there are those who were already confirmed members of the royal family's preferred denomination (Stephanie) and others who decided to not join the royal family's church (Máxima).

Most of those marrying into a royal family become a member of the royal family's (preferred) denomination. So, a logical conclusion is that them becoming part of it is a major reason to join that church. This question is faced by many who get married (not only royals), so I am glad that the couples decide to be members of the same church. Assuming that all of them did so because they concluded that their new church's teaching was more true than their previous church's teaching or that they suddenly became christian or muslim seems farfetched to me. It may be true for some of them but most likely not for all.
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  #803  
Old 03-09-2018, 06:13 PM
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Basically, I think everyone's opinion on the matter of Meghan's baptism and confirmation could be right. We know she has formalized her connection to the Church of England with the blessing of the Archbishop of Canterbury. This has made her a public communicant within the CoE. It will be the religion she actively practices.

Underlining it all is her spirituality which is a private matter and not for public consumption. Religion is something you practice. Spirituality is something you live. I can't help but at this time remember the passing of Prince Henrik of Denmark who converted from Roman Catholicism to the Lutheran church of Denmark in his public life but we've also found out that he embraced Buddhist concepts. We never know what a person's "truth" is or a person's spiritual nature unless we really get to know the person.
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  #804  
Old 03-10-2018, 03:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Terri Terri View Post
Guess we can say the same about all of the females who have married into European monarchies who have done the same as Meghan can we? Kate Middleton, Autumn Kelly, Crown Princess Mary, Princes Marie, Countess Alexandra, Queen Letizia etc etc etc
^^^Exactly. The mental gymnastics online to separate her as completely different is rather...

Meghan DID Attend Church Services, was a church goer even before she’d ever met Harry.

She went to a christian school.

As has been reported, her parents have christian roots, as in, they did belong to different denominations of the Protestant faction of the christian church.

Some people were baptised as babies, doesn’t mean they or their parent(s) lead christian lives. A lot of people have their babies baptised as part of a tradition and not necessarily because they have faith. It’s not my place to judge.

Plenty christians get baptised / confirmed later on in life and that doesn’t mean they never had faith in Christ before then and it certainly didn’t make them any less children of God, so long as they have faith in Christ. It takes a specific type to suggest otherwise.

People can be be very religious, go church every single Sunday and still have dark hearts, still be unkind by nature... People can go church every now and then, have faith and belief within their hearts, pray in their hearts within the home or wherever and still be a true follower of Christ.

Being a yoga enthusiast doesn’t make you any less of a christian. Being a free spirit doesn’t preclude a person as a believer in Christ either, nor does getting wed in a registry or on a beach somewhere sunny etc.

Different churches are set up for different reasons. The Church of English has its origins in adultery but I wouldn’t suggest that makes it any less of a christian church. Christ is a forgiving, loving, welcoming body after all and NOT mean-spirited. Or sanctimonious.

The true flock of Christ understands this and lead by example.
  #805  
Old 03-10-2018, 03:36 AM
Nobility
 
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Basically, I think everyone's opinion on the matter of Meghan's baptism and confirmation could be right. We know she has formalized her connection to the Church of England with the blessing of the Archbishop of Canterbury. This has made her a public communicant within the CoE. It will be the religion she actively practices.

Underlining it all is her spirituality which is a private matter and not for public consumption. Religion is something you practice. Spirituality is something you live. I can't help but at this time remember the passing of Prince Henrik of Denmark who converted from Roman Catholicism to the Lutheran church of Denmark in his public life but we've also found out that he embraced Buddhist concepts. We never know what a person's "truth" is or a person's spiritual nature unless we really get to know the person.
Said it much better than I could
  #806  
Old 03-10-2018, 05:35 AM
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Quote:
The Church of England has its origins in adultery
Whilst it's true that the Papal refusal to grant Henry viii the divorce he sought was A reason, I would suggest the real causes were altogether more various - The widespread dissatisfaction with perceived corruption and usery within the Catholic Church, amongst the English populace,a growing sense of England as a 'nation apart' [cf Brexit] from mainland Europe [and powerful in its own right], and CRUCIALLY Henry's own rapacity.
He had spent the vast amount of Money garnered by his miser Father- mainly on War, but also on splendid and NUMEROUS Palaces, and he needed a new source of largesse with which to keep his nobility loyal, being the son of a usurper. Where better than the fabulously wealthy, deeply unpopular Roman Church with its land holdings and monasteries BURSTING with Treasure ? All this could [and would] be redistributed to secure loyalty..

Protestantism was the 'coming thing' in Northern Europe and i've no doubt Henry would have broken with Rome even without his need for a Divorce.
  #807  
Old 03-10-2018, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by wyevale View Post
Whilst it's true that the Papal refusal to grant Henry viii the divorce he sought was A reason, I would suggest the real causes were altogether more various - The widespread dissatisfaction with perceived corruption and usery within the Catholic Church, amongst the English populace,a growing sense of England as a 'nation apart' [cf Brexit] from mainland Europe [and powerful in its own right], and CRUCIALLY Henry's own rapacity.
He had spent the vast amount of Money garnered by his miser Father- mainly on War, but also on splendid and NUMEROUS Palaces, and he needed a new source of largesse with which to keep his nobility loyal, being the son of a usurper. Where better than the fabulously wealthy, deeply unpopular Roman Church with its land holdings and monasteries BURSTING with Treasure ? All this could [and would] be redistributed to secure loyalty..

Protestantism was the 'coming thing' in Northern Europe and i've no doubt Henry would have broken with Rome even without his need for a Divorce.

I don't think Henry VIII would have broken with Rome under different circumstances. He was not a believer in Protestant theology and did little to advance Reformed worship and practices while he was king. I do think, however, that England would have become Protestant (eventually) under Henry VIII's successors.

As it is often the case with human behavior, people are drawn to certain causes for multiple reasons. At the time of the Reformation, there were genuine believers in the cause, most notably among the Calvinist middle class and those former members of the (Catholic) clergy who embraced the new faith. Among the Protestant royalty and high nobility, although there were also some truly devout Protestants, my impression is that most were at best moderate sympathizers who were guided by other pragmatic concerns, including political and economic interests.
  #808  
Old 03-10-2018, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terri Terri View Post
Guess we can say the same about all of the females who have married into European monarchies who have done the same as Meghan can we? Kate Middleton, Autumn Kelly, Crown Princess Mary, Princes Marie, Countess Alexandra, Queen Letizia etc etc etc
Princess Charlene belongs on that list as well.

I think this is just another thing that people are using to try to be critical of Meghan, just as they did to Catherine before her. People all around the world have converted or not when they've married. It's a personal choice.

Many, many years ago my then Protestant mother and her best friend both married men who were Catholic. My mother converted, her friend didn't. All the kids in both families were raised Catholic. Personal choice.
  #809  
Old 03-10-2018, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile View Post
Princess Charlene belongs on that list as well.

I think this is just another thing that people are using to try to be critical of Meghan, just as they did to Carherine before her. People all around the world have converted or not when they've married. It's a personal choice.

Many, many years ago my then Protestant mother and her best friend both married men who were Catholic. My mother converted, her friend didn't. All the kids in both families were raised Catholic. Personal choice.
Just as a side comment, the bride doesn't have to convert to marry a Catholic, but I believe a couple can't get married in a Catholic Church unless they promise to raise future children as Catholics. Whether they will keep that promise or not is a another matter entirely.
  #810  
Old 03-10-2018, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Just as a side comment, the bride doesn't have to convert to marry a Catholic, but I believe a couple can't get married in a Catholic Church unless they promise to raise future children as Catholics. Whether they will keep that promise or not is a another matter entirely.
In the past yes, but currently only the Catholic spouse has to promise to try to raise any children in the Catholic faith. Some priests are more flexible than others with requirements and rules though.
Same "rules" apply to grooms as well as brides.
  #811  
Old 03-10-2018, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Reem View Post
^^^Exactly. The mental gymnastics online to separate her as completely different is rather...

Meghan DID Attend Church Services, was a church goer even before she’d ever met Harry.

She went to a christian school.

As has been reported, her parents have christian roots, as in, they did belong to different denominations of the Protestant faction of the christian church.

Some people were baptised as babies, doesn’t mean they or their parent(s) lead christian lives. A lot of people have their babies baptised as part of a tradition and not necessarily because they have faith. It’s not my place to judge.

Plenty christians get baptised / confirmed later on in life and that doesn’t mean they never had faith in Christ before then and it certainly didn’t make them any less children of God, so long as they have faith in Christ. It takes a specific type to suggest otherwise.

People can be be very religious, go church every single Sunday and still have dark hearts, still be unkind by nature... People can go church every now and then, have faith and belief within their hearts, pray in their hearts within the home or wherever and still be a true follower of Christ.

Being a yoga enthusiast doesn’t make you any less of a christian. Being a free spirit doesn’t preclude a person as a believer in Christ either, nor does getting wed in a registry or on a beach somewhere sunny etc.

Different churches are set up for different reasons. The Church of English has its origins in adultery but I wouldn’t suggest that makes it any less of a christian church. Christ is a forgiving, loving, welcoming body after all and NOT mean-spirited. Or sanctimonious.

The true flock of Christ understands this and lead by example.
This quite sums it up! Thank you for writing this. I was rather upset by the unbending version of Christianity that people attribute to the Church of England. At the heart of Christianity, at least what I know in America is the heart of forgiveness, not judgement.

It is hard to judge when you don't know the complete truth or have all the facts. Rumors and gossip are not enough to form a judgement on someone else.
  #812  
Old 03-10-2018, 10:45 AM
ACO ACO is offline
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Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
All this reminds me of the episode where George converts to Albanian Orthodox to marry this woman he met. The Bishop asks him what about the faith attracts you and George replies the hats. He likes the pointy hats.

Imo and it’s only my opinion, Meghan would have converted to any religion if it meant becoming Princess Harry. Harry is her pointy hat.
I think most feel that way about people marrying into royalty.
  #813  
Old 03-10-2018, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by royal rob View Post
I do remember that episode ha ha. Yep agree. The one thing we will never know is would she have done this if she wasn’t marrying Harry I doubt it
Yes, that may be true, but she probably wouldn't have had the same opportunity to learn about the Church of England if she wasn't marrying Harry. So it still doesn't say anything about her sincerity or lack thereof. My father didn't love my mother before he met her and it wasn't love at first sight but once it happened that didn't lessen his sincerity.
  #814  
Old 03-10-2018, 02:53 PM
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A lot of people are believers and aren't terribly picky about the kind of church they join. Religion is manmade, and can have little to do with spirituality.
  #815  
Old 03-10-2018, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Gawin View Post
Yes, that may be true, but she probably wouldn't have had the same opportunity to learn about the Church of England if she wasn't marrying Harry. So it still doesn't say anything about her sincerity or lack thereof. My father didn't love my mother before he met her and it wasn't love at first sight but once it happened that didn't lessen his sincerity.
You have a valid point. When Princess Astrid of Sweden married Crown Prince Leopold of Belgium in 1926, she declared she wanted to convert from Lutheranism to Roman Catholicism because that was the religion of the Belgian royal family and of most of the Belgian people. She was advised by the Church not to convert, however, unless she genuinely believed Catholicism was "the true religion". Astrid learned more about Catholicism and, several years later, in 1930, she converted from genuine conviction, much to the pleasure of her father-in-law, King Albert I, who was very devout himself.

It may be also the case that Meghan originally intended to be baptized and confirmed in the CoE just because it was Harry's and Harry's family's religion, but, after bonding with the Archbishop of Canterbury and receiving instruction in the Anglican faith, she genuinely embraced it on her free will and out of conviction. The process was just quicker in her case.
  #816  
Old 03-10-2018, 05:45 PM
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Is Episcopalian really the US version of the COE? I was raised and baptized Baptist but I personally think all these denominations are semantics at least for me; we're all Protestant right.
  #817  
Old 03-10-2018, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
Is Episcopalian really the US version of the COE? I was raised and baptized Baptist but I personally think all these denominations are semantics at least for me; we're all Protestant right.
Yes, it is. The Episcopalian church is the American branch of the Anglican Community. The Church of England is the English (and founding) branch of that same Anglican Community.

And the Anglicans are 'the least protestant' (i.e., closest to the Roman Catholic church) compared to other protestant denominations - as, for example, evidenced by their theology on Holy Communion/The Lord's Table/The Eucharist and the appointment of bisshops (most protestant churches are less hierarchical but instead use a Presbyterian or a Congregational model of governance).
  #818  
Old 03-10-2018, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by royal rob View Post
I do remember that episode ha ha. Yep agree. The one thing we will never know is would she have done this if she wasn’t marrying Harry I doubt it
Probably not. As an American, she probably wouldn't have come in to contact with any Episcopalians not gone to church with them.

However, having met Harry and attended Church with him, it may very well have provided a focus for her spirituality.

As a note to those who believe Meghan's Confirmation was expedited, the Church website advises:
Quote:
You will need to be baptized before you are confirmed. If you were not baptized as a child and want to make a commitment of faith, you can be baptized and confirmed in the same service, or baptized at a separate service shortly before your confirmation.
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  #819  
Old 03-10-2018, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by MARG View Post
Probably not. As an American, she probably wouldn't have come in to contact with any Episcopalians not gone to church with them.
I grew up in a small southern town. There were 32 Baptist churches, 2 Methodist, 2 Presbyterian, 1 Roman Catholic, and 1 Episcopalian. I frequently attended Episcopal services- they were much grander and more dramatic than the Protestant services I was (slightly) accustomed to attending, and I always went to the very cool teen dances they sponsored. There’s no reason that Meghan wouldn’t have had similar opportunities.
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  #820  
Old 03-11-2018, 03:57 AM
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Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
Is Episcopalian really the US version of the COE? I was raised and baptized Baptist but I personally think all these denominations are semantics at least for me; we're all Protestant right.
No, the C of E embraces both Catholic and Protesttant beleivers...
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