Meghan Markle: Citizenship and Religious Conversion

[moby]

Originally Posted by Somebody

Whether she wants to change it or not is indeed a different question. I am trying to understand how a foreign country can decide that a different country's citizen legally has a different name... (Living in a foreign country myself and until recently a country in which they use two surnames, I've heard that sometimes they do require you to also take your mother's surname if you nationalize; but before that the name on your official paperwork from your country of citizenship is used in all official documents)

I actually like this part in a very perverse way. Basically it is because each country have their own naming customs and can interpret your birth certificate in their own way. This is a huge pain in the for consular officers and for people living in a different country from the one that issued their birth certificates.

I will digress a bit from Meghan Markle but to give an example, some countries have middle names, some have maiden names, some have titles. If a Spaniard with a name Enrique Iglesias Preysler applies for a US visa, for instance, he has to decide which surname to put...Iglesias? Iglesias Preysler? If a Filipino, whose country's naming custom would be in this order-Enrique Preysler Iglesias, uses his mother's surname as one of his names in his birth certificate gets a US visa, does he put Preysler Iglesias as surname, or as given name "Enrique Preysler" because the US does not ask for your mother's maiden name but only "Given Names" and "Last Name." In the end, the key is to be consistent as really, it only becomes a problem when one document does not match another document.

Of course this is for ordinary citizens and in Meghan's case, I am certain that in the UK it won't be as bureaucratic because it really only becomes bureaucratic when one has to prove identity and everyone knows them, so no problem there. In the US, in the very weird occasion a bureaucrat asks for documents from her about her identity and sees inconsistencies, at most she would just need to have an affidavit stamped by the Foreign Office stating she is "One and the same" person and list all the names she goes by and the supporting docs, and that would be it.

[Denville]

I can't understand why this has sparked off so much discussion. Meghan will almost certainly change her citizenship, IMO.. and it will probably be fast tracked for her to become a British citizen, if necessary. and she will use her husband's title as her "name"..ie HRH Princess Henry or more likely HRH the Duchess of X.
She wont have any problems because she will have expert people sorting the whole thing out...

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by Ish

You're mixing different things here. Harry's legal name is Henry Charles Albert David. His title is Prince Henry of Wales. When Meghan marries, her legal name will remain Rachel Meghan Markle (unless she changes her last name), but her title will be Princess Henry of Wales (unless Harry is granted a peerage). Her title is by courtesy because of who she is married to, and her citizenship has nothing to do with that. So long as she is married to Harry and he remains Prince Henry of Wales, then she is recognized as Princess Henry of Wales.

Thanks. So, her legal name remains the same but as spouse of she can use his titles.

Within the UK, Harry doesn't need a surname (as a royal), and is able to use his title on legal paperwork. Within the US system, were Harry to ever for some reason require a legal name it would be Henry Charles Albert David Mountbatten-Windsor.

Technically, if he wishes to, Harry could use Mountbatten-Windsor as a surname within Britain - as indicated by the fact that Anne's marriage certificate noted her name as Anne Elizabeth Alice Louise Mountbatten-Windsor. If it's Meghan's intention to change her name in the US, I wouldn't be surprised if Harry recorded his name with this surname just to simplify things.

What would be preferred by the British peopke, that she keeps her legal name as is or thst she changes it to Mountbatten-Windsor?

The name on her British passport, when she gets one, can include her titles. This is not her name, this is her titles; in all likelihood her name as it appears on any British legal paperwork post-marriage is going to include her title. Her name on her childrens' birth certificates will likely be Rachel Meghan Mountbatten-Windsor, Her Royal Highness The Duchess of Sussex (or whatever surname she takes after marriage and title she holds) - this is comparable to how Kate was named on George and Charlotte's birth certificates.

Main difference is that Catherine is a British citizen and Meghan is not, so it will be interesting to see which name they would put on a birth certificate as her legal name will be RMM unless she changes it.

[moby]

Originally Posted by Denville

I can't understand why this has sparked off so much discussion. Meghan will almost certainly change her citizenship, IMO.. and it will probably be fast tracked for her to become a British citizen, if necessary. and she will use her husband's title as her "name"..ie HRH Princess Henry or more likely HRH the Duchess of X.
She wont have any problems because she will have expert people sorting the whole thing out...

We all know she will have expert people sorting everything out and will have 0 problems on these things for the rest of her life... But for some people it is a fun mental exercise to figure out how these things will be taken care of at the micro level.

I skim the parts about the sponsors for confirmation, I'm pretty sure others can do the same on the nitty-gritty bits about consular aspects of citizenship.

[wyevale]

Would the predicate "The Right Honourable" be also used before his name on British documents ?

That predicate is used for Privy Councillors, so IF Harry is [at any point] made one, he will be addressed as such..

[Denville]

Originally Posted by moby

We all know she will have expert people sorting everything out and will have 0 problems on these things for the rest of her life... But for some people it is a fun mental exercise to figure out how these things will be taken care of at the micro level.

I skim the parts about the sponsors for confirmation, I'm pretty sure others can do the same on the nitty-gritty bits about consular aspects of citizenship.

I suppose I think it just doesn't matter... the bods that work for thm will sort it out.
as for confirmation I'd regard that as a bit more important... but I only got involved in the discussion because someone mentioned a sponsor and I had never heard of one...

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by Somebody

Thanks. So, her legal name remains the same but as spouse of she can use his titles.


What would be preferred by the British peopke, that she keeps her legal name as is or thst she changes it to Mountbatten-Windsor?


Main difference is that Catherine is a British citizen and Meghan is not, so it will be interesting to see which name they would put on a birth certificate as her legal name will be RMM unless she changes it.

Catherine was not named Mountbatten-Windsor or Middleton on George’s birth certificate , but rather just Catherine Elizabeth followed by her title and style. I don’t expect Meghan to use a last name like Mountbatten-Windsor or Markle in the UK.

BTW, the same custom is observed in the Netherlands for royal spouses. Máxima was named HRH Princess Máxima, Princess of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau, on her daughters’ birth certificates, without a last name. By contrast, in Spain or Belgium, royal spouses use their maiden family name in legal documents and, even in Sweden, we have learned recently that Sofia uses the last name Bernadotte although her husband and his sisters normally do not use a last name .

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by Mbruno

Catherine was not named Mountbatten--Windsor or Middleton on George’s birth certificate , but rather just Catherine Elizabeth followed by her title and style. I don’t expect Meghan to use a last name like Mountbatten-Windsor or Markle in the UK.

BTW, , the same custom is observed in the Netherlands for royal spouses. Máxima was named HRH Princess Máxima, Princess of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau, on her daughters’ birth certificates, without a last name. By contrast, in Spain or Belgium, royal spouses use their maiden family name in legal documents and, even in Sweden, se have learned recently that Sofia uses the last name Bernadotte although her husband and his sisters normally do not use a last name .

Again, the difference is that Máxima was Dutch when her children were born... To me it makes a big difference if you use the custom of the country of your citizenship (of course that prevails) or the country that you are only 'living in' while not a citizen (in that case, I'd say her legal name should be used - so that is unless they speed up her process, which I think would be the wise thing to do).

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by Somebody

Again, the difference is that Máxima was Dutch when her children were born... To me it makes a big difference if you use the custom of the country of your citizenship (of course that prevails) or the country that you are only 'living in' while not a citizen (in that case, I'd say her legal name should be used - so that is unless they speed up her process, which I think would be the wise thing to do).

I guess we will have to wait for Meghan to have a child to see what they will do. Although it is unlikely, she may already be a British citizen by then.

Just to correct my previous message, Máxima was referred to as "Her Royal Highness Máxima Princess of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau" on Alexia's birth certificate , and not as "HRH Princess Máxima [...]" as I had written before.

Just to contrast, see the notices below of the royal decrees giving the Grand Cordon of the Order of Léopold to Princess Mathilde and Princess Claire of Belgium. They are both referred to by their maiden names. For example:

Par arrêté royal du 14 juillet 2004 a été nommée :

Grand Cordon

la Princesse Claire Coombs, Princesse de Belgique.

Ordres nationaux Ordre de Léopold Par arrêté royal du 19 septembre 2000 a été nommée : Grand Cordon La Princesse Mathilde, Marie, Christine, Ghislaine, Comtesse d'Udekem d'Acoz, Duchesse de Brabant, Princesse de Belgique .

http://www.etaamb.be/fr/arrete-royal_n2001015137.html

https://vlex.be/vid/commandeur-anick...hilde-52309215

[jacqui24]

Originally Posted by Somebody

Again, the difference is that Máxima was Dutch when her children were born... To me it makes a big difference if you use the custom of the country of your citizenship (of course that prevails) or the country that you are only 'living in' while not a citizen (in that case, I'd say her legal name should be used - so that is unless they speed up her process, which I think would be the wise thing to do).

She doesn’t need to be British for Britain to recognize her title and a member of the royal family. Members of royal family do not use a last name and when required uses Mountbatten Windsor, but that’s so rarely in Britain to need it.

[Ish]

Originally Posted by ACO

Here is Princess Charlotte's birth certificate and Diana's passport for reference.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/644...x1-940x940.jpg

http://theroyalpost.com/wp-content/u...9/img_1685.jpg

I assume Meghan would be recognized the same way. Her title would still be used and recognized regardless but her legal name is also included in the passport. Seems it was her maiden name.

Looking at Diana’s passport, it seems to name her as Diana Frances née Spencer, not Diana Frances Spencer; I’d assume that Kate is recognized the same way now. Their legal names are simply their first names, no surname, but they note what surname they used when they last had one.

Originally Posted by Somebody

Thanks. So, her legal name remains the same but as spouse of she can use his titles.





What would be preferred by the British peopke, that she keeps her legal name as is or thst she changes it to Mountbatten-Windsor?





Main difference is that Catherine is a British citizen and Meghan is not, so it will be interesting to see which name they would put on a birth certificate as her legal name will be RMM unless she changes it.

I don’t think what the Brits want is going to be a big play on whether or not Meghan legally changes her surname in the US; I doubt the Brits care enough for it to be more than a story in one news cycle. It’s more likely to depend on how Meghan feels about taking her husband’s name, and the hassle to do so given as neither of them live in the US anymore.

For birth certificates (or drivers licenses or any other legal documents), I expect to see her being listed as Rachel Meghan Markle (or Rachel Meghan Mountbatten-Windsor) HRH The Duchess of Wherever, so long as she’s not a UK citizen. But I could be wrong.

Originally Posted by jacqui24

She doesn’t need to be British for Britain to recognize her title and a member of the royal family. Members of royal family do not use a last name and when required uses Mountbatten Windsor, but that’s so rarely in Britain to need it.

Again, two different things. Unlike previous British Royals, Meghan is not a UK citizen, and thus has a legal name that does not necessarily conform to the British Royal system. I would add that we have seen British royals use a surname in Britain in the past - the Queen’s marriage certificate, for example, lists her full name as Elizabeth Mary Alexandra Windsor.

[ACO]

Originally Posted by Ish

Looking at Diana’s passport, it seems to name her as Diana Frances née Spencer, not Diana Frances Spencer; I’d assume that Kate is recognized the same way now. Their legal names are simply their first names, no surname, but they note what surname they used when they last had one.

I could be reading it wrong but I saw it as née Diana Frances Spencer. As in that was what she was formally known as. The whole name not just her last.

So Kate would have been née Catherine Elizabeth Middleton on hers.

[Ish]

ACO, looking at the pic again, you are correct.

[Denville]

Originally Posted by Ish

Looking at

I d


Again, two different things. Unlike previous British Royals, Meghan is not a UK citizen, and thus has a legal name that does not necessarily conform to the British Royal system. I would add that we have seen British royals use a surname in Britain in the past - the Queen’s marriage certificate, for example, lists her full name as Elizabeth Mary Alexandra Windsor.

the British wont care as Meghan will use her husband's title. She's not going to use her own name..

[Lady Reem]

Originally Posted by jacqui24

Princess Marie of Denmark and the former Princess Alexandria of Denmark both were granted citizenship upon marriage, so clearly that had nothing to do with marrying crown princes. The bottom line is, she is going to be carrying out duties representing the monarch for the rest of her life unless something drastic happens. It's a bit odd. And I'm not sure how the people would feel about the grandchildren of a monarch to carry dual citizenship until they are 18. I actually think it's better for any children they might have to have that option if they prefer to pursue a more private life in US once they are old enough. Any trust set up for them can just be kept in US to avoid British taxes and FBAR disclosures. But then again, I'm American.

Brilliant answer jacqui.

[hel]

Roya Nikkhah is reporting in tomorrow's Sunday Times that Meghan will be baptized and confirmed this month (and possibly this week) at the KP chapel, and that both of her parents will be travelling to witness it.

https://twitter.com/RoyaNikkhah/stat...60607243333633

[Alisa]

Lovely. All I want is one official picture of the couple, the archbishop and Meghan's parents.

[Princess Larisa]

I don’t think we’ll get any photos. We didn’t for Catherine’s confirmation.

[Pranter]

IIRC this is considered a private (as it should be) event.



LaRae

[royal rob]

Originally Posted by Alisa

Lovely. All I want is one official picture of the couple, the archbishop and Meghan's parents.

Well you won’t get it. It’s private or should be it would be a terrible slip up to make it a photo call