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  #541  
Old 01-21-2018, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippyboo View Post
Anne just signed Anne. The person filling out the wedding registry used Mountbatten Windsor. You can google image the wedding registry. Maybe because it was the first wedding since the name change and Uncle Dickie was still alive to reinforce it.
I couldn't find Anne's marriage certificate. I only found Charles and Camilla's . No surname is given for Charles.

Quote:
The LP that allowed Mountbatten-Windsor only excludes descendents with princely title. And Anne is The Princess Anne without a designation.
I don't understand what you mean. She has been HRH The Princess Royal since 1987. In any case, even as HRH The Princess Anne, she was already an HRH with the titular dignity of princess when she married so, under the Declaration of 1960, she shouldn't use the surname Mountbatten-Windsor.

Tatiana Maria and the British Royal Court site gave a different (somewhat broader) interpretation of the 1960 Declaration implying that even the HRHs with the titular dignity of prince who descend from QEII and Prince Philip must use the surname Mountbatten-Windsor if a surname is officially required. I just don't understand why one was required for Anne in her marriage certificate when it was not for her brothers. Following Skippyboo's argument, I suppose the clerk or whoever filled out (British English: filled in ?) the document simply didn't know what to do and assumed a surname had to be given.
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  #542  
Old 01-21-2018, 07:50 PM
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Not the marriage certificate. Wedding registry from the Abbey.

Just google princess Anne wedding registry
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  #543  
Old 01-21-2018, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Thanks, Tatiana Maria. You posts are always very informative !

I wonder: why did Anne have to use Mountbatten-Windsor on her marriage register when none of her brothers had to do the same on theirs ? Is that in any way related to the fact that she is a woman ? I don't see the logic behind it.
Likewise!

A royal expert stated to Town and Country (see the Yahoo article in Post #477) that Mountbatten-Windsor was used in the marriage registries of Anne, Andrew and Edward, but not that of prince Charles. Illogical indeed.

There is a small photograph of Anne's marriage certificate shown in the website below. It too states that the Duke of York and the Earl of Wessex used the surname of "Mountbatten-Windsor" on their marriage certificates.

Mountbatten Name 4
  #544  
Old 01-21-2018, 08:05 PM
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We're getting off-topic but...according to "The Queen: The Life of Elizabeth II" by Elizabeth Longford, Anne's name was filled in by the registrar as "Anne Elizabeth Alice Louise Mountbatten-Windsor" at the Queen's request. She quotes a comment from Buckingham Palace in October 1975:

"This was the first time that the surname "Mountbatten-Windsor" was used on an official document by any of the Queen's descendants. It was the Queen's decision that this should be done as Her Majesty wished her husband's name to appear on the Marriage Register of their daughter. (The Queen did not seek the advice of her Ministers in this matter)." (p. 218).

The certificate appears here (I had to shorten the lengthy URL):
https://tinyurl.com/y8uy82g6

The entry for Peter Phillips in the General Register Office's England and Wales Civil Registration Indexes (digital images available in Ancestry) lists his mother's maiden name as "Mountbatten-Windsor." Zara's entry lists her name as "Anne Elizabeth Alice Louise (H.R.H)."
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  #545  
Old 01-21-2018, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Likewise!

A royal expert stated to Town and Country (see the Yahoo article in Post #477) that Mountbatten-Windsor was used in the marriage registries of Anne, Andrew and Edward, but not that of prince Charles. Illogical indeed.

There is a small photograph of Anne's marriage certificate shown in the website below. It too states that the Duke of York and the Earl of Wessex used the surname of "Mountbatten-Windsor" on their marriage certificates.

Mountbatten Name 4
Oops - I didn't realize you'd already posted a copy - sorry!
  #546  
Old 01-21-2018, 08:13 PM
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Thank you for the enlightening post, and for posting the certificate! Longford's comment "The Queen did not seek the advice of her Ministers in this matter" is curious. Was there an expectation that she would?
  #547  
Old 01-21-2018, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post


Thank you for the enlightening post, and for posting the certificate! Longford's comment "The Queen did not seek the advice of her Ministers in this matter" is curious. Was there an expectation that she would?
According to Lady Longford she'd persuaded Prime Minister Harold Macmillan to support her wish to add Mountbatten to Windsor so it seems she needed his support.

Because of the wording of the Order in Council it was believed by some that the Mountbatten-Windsor surname would only apply to descendants who weren't HRHs. But the Queen's instructions to have Mountbatten-Windsor recorded as Anne's surname in the marriage register ended that speculation.

Regarding the statement that the Queen did not seek her Minister's advice regarding Anne's marriage registrar, Lady Longford simply says it "had considerable significance."

So as you stated earlier "when a surname is required in official paperwork, a royal or a peer traditionally uses their family name as their surname."
  #548  
Old 01-21-2018, 08:46 PM
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It seems that there is some...flexibility in if a surname is needed or how it is written on documents. As the article posted above stated, while Anne, Andrew, and Edward used Mountbatten-Windsor on marriage certificate, the first official Mountbatten-Windsor’s are Lady Louise and Viscount Severn.
  #549  
Old 01-21-2018, 08:51 PM
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I suppose it's because Lady Louise and Viscount Severn are the first not to use HRH Prince(ess) which trumps the surname.
  #550  
Old 01-21-2018, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacqui24 View Post
France doesn’t allow for change in name whereas US does. Even in that case I had to give a side eye to using Mountbatten-Windsor being legal as he was not born Mountbatten-Windsor. And you can’t group US with France. While US doesn’t recognize titles, it’s perfectly legal for her to change her name whereas it is not in France. The only consideration will be given is how is it easiest to match US and U.K. documents, not what she would have to use if a legal action is ever to take place in France.
There is nothing odd about William using Mountbatten-Windsor as his surname under circumstances where he needs one. For example France, which does not legally recognize titles or HRH.

You can't just change your name--first or last-- on a whim in the U.S. Meghan could remain Markle after marriage or she can take the legal last name of her husband that he would use when necessary--Mountbatten -Windsor. She cannot arbitrarily use Sussex--it would be his title, no matter that it would be used for convenience in the UK, Meghan would have to go to court in the U.S. and legally change her last name to Sussex.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
If, hypothetically, she wanted to change her name legally in the US, wouldn't it make more sense to change it to Rachel Meghan Mountbatten-Windsor rather than Rachel Meghan Sussex or anything like that ? Matching her UK and US documents will never be possible as her UK documents will be issued in the name of HRH Rachel Meghan, The Duchess of Sussex and that is a name which, I assume, she cannot use in the US. She would probably be better off then sticking with Rachel Meghan Markle, at least until her naturalization process in the UK is complete. After that, I assume that she will renounce her US citizenship and the question of how her name will appear on her US documents will no longer apply.

EDIT: Doing a quick Google search, I found copies of Prince Charles and Diana's passports in the following link . I assume Harry's and Meghan's would be similar, right ?
Absolutely, spot on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post



Given that Meghan's title wouldn't be recognized in the US, I would argue that in that case Mountbatten-Windsor would be the appropriate surname as that is exactly the situation in which that surname is to be used (if there 'is' no title). She won't be 'Princess Meghan of Sussex', but Her Royal Highness The Duchess of Sussex (or Clarence or ...)', so the combination of her first name with Sussex would be inappropriate from my point of few (as it is well known that that combination is used for divorced former duchesses).


Could she indeed just pick whatever she likes as a surname or does it need to be related to something. As in, could she decide to take the surname 'princess of the United Kingdom'?

1) I agree

2)No she can't just pick any surname and change it without going to court, unless she is adopting her husband's surname after marriage. That just requires your marriage certificate.
  #551  
Old 01-21-2018, 09:02 PM
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So going back on-topic to Meghan, if she needs to change her last name on her US passport, based on the discussion above, she should change it to Mountbatten-Windsor, which is the last name she would use officially in the UK if she ever needed one after marrying Harry, right ?

I just don't think she will need a last name in her UK documents and, like Kate, could get away simply with HRH Rachel Meghan Duchess of [xxx]. Or should different rules apply to William's and Harry's wives ?
  #552  
Old 01-21-2018, 09:06 PM
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UK documents will accept the royal status but ... whenever she needs a surname outside the UK e.g. the Cambridge's law suit in France then she will use Mountbatten-Windsor as that will be her married name.

She could opt to retain her maiden name on her documents of course but then she can't use the royal status as well.
  #553  
Old 01-21-2018, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
So going back on-topic to Meghan, if she needs to change her last name on her US passport, based on the discussion above, she should change it to Mountbatten-Windsor, which is the last name she would have to use officially in the UK if she ever needed one after marrying Harry, right ?
It...depends Harry technically isn’t a Mountbatten-Windsor as it’s been stated that the first official Mountbatten-Windsor is Lady Louise. It’s odd how the last name situation works for royals . It doesn’t seem to have consistency. But if we are to talk about official LP, then no. However, the sovereign’s wish is enough as we found out with Edward’s children not being HRHs. Now, there hasn’t been official announcement from the Queen to wish differently than the LP on the matter of last name other than existing LP. In the past, Harry used Wales as last name when required in U.K.
  #554  
Old 01-21-2018, 09:11 PM
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Question. If the UK passport follows the traditional way of wording titles, wouldn't Kate's passport state simply HRH The Duchess of Cambridge? I believe the use of a first name and then the title was designated for divorced spouses of a peer such as Sarah, Duchess of York.

If this ruling is followed, wouldn't Meghan's UK passport just read HRH The Duchess of XXXX? This wouldn't work at all though for a US passport, I believe and she'd either have to retain the legal name of Rachel Meghan Markle or change it to Rachel Meghan Mountbatten-Windsor.

Boy is there a lot of confusion about things when a British royal marries an American eh?
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  #555  
Old 01-21-2018, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
So going back on-topic to Meghan, if she needs to change her last name on her US passport, based on the discussion above, she should change it to Mountbatten-Windsor, which is the last name she would use officially in the UK if she ever needed one after marrying Harry, right ?

I just don't think she will need a last name in her UK documents and, like Kate, could get away simply with HRH Rachel Meghan Duchess of [xxx]. Or should different rules apply to William's and Harry's wives ?
She doesn't need to change her last name on her US passport, women are allowed to keep their names in the US when they marry, several of my cousins have. If Meghan wants to change it she can and yes, it would be Mountbatten-Windsor.
In the UK, officially her name will be the same as other royal duchesses.
  #556  
Old 01-21-2018, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
UK documents will accept the royal status but ... whenever she needs a surname outside the UK e.g. the Cambridge's law suit in France then she will use Mountbatten-Windsor as that will be her married name.

She could opt to retain her maiden name on her documents of course but then she can't use the royal status as well.
She can still use Markle while being Duchess of xxxx in countries that doesn’t recognize title. Kate used Middleton for the lawsuit in France.
  #557  
Old 01-21-2018, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by jacqui24 View Post
It...depends Harry technically isn’t a Mountbatten-Windsor as it’s been stated that the first official Mountbatten-Windsor is Lady Louise. It’s odd how the last name situation works for royals . It doesn’t seem to have consistency. But if we are to talk about official LP, then no. However, the sovereign’s wish is enough as we found out with Edward’s children not being HRHs. Now, there hasn’t been official announcement from the Queen to wish differently than the LP on the matter of last name other than existing LP. In the past, Harry used Wales as last name when required in U.K.
As you said, Harry has used Wales for a last name as a convenience, in the UK. But if Harry needed a legal last name outside of the UK--Mountbatten-Windsor would be the name he would use. It doesn't matter what the "rules" are in the UK in those circumstances.
What you keep ignoring is that outside of the UK, in many countries, Harry is only called Prince Harry as a social courtesy.
  #558  
Old 01-21-2018, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Question. If the UK passport follows the traditional way of wording titles, wouldn't Kate's passport state simply HRH The Duchess of Cambridge? I believe the use of a first name and then the title was designated for divorced spouses of a peer such as Sarah, Duchess of York.
That seems to be debatable too. I believe kate was listed as HRH Catherine Elizabeth Duchess of Cambridge on Georgeís birth certificate. The difference between married and divorced would be the HRH.
  #559  
Old 01-21-2018, 09:22 PM
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The UK and US passports donít have to match. However, she isnít going to get a UK passport until she becomes a UK citizen which wonít happen for several years.
  #560  
Old 01-21-2018, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile View Post
As you said, Harry has used Wales for a last name as a convenience, in the UK. But if Harry needed a legal last name outside of the UK--Mountbatten-Windsor would be the name he would use. It doesn't matter what the "rules" are in the UK in those circumstances.
What you keep ignoring is that outside of the UK, in many countries, Harry is only called Prince Harry as a social courtesy.
Actually, I donít think there is a law saying that. Iím not sure how the last name in the France case was decided as heís never been Mountbatten-Windsor. That wasnít on his birth certificate. Unless he obtained French document and listed his name as Mountbatten-Windsor. If thatís the cascade, it seems to be what they are comfortable with.
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