Meghan Markle: Citizenship and Religious Conversion

[Curbside]

She could just maintain a set of documents with her own birth name to make it easier to travel. In the U. S. you have to actually change your identity documents upon marriage, and plenty of women just don't bother.

[ACO]

Originally Posted by Lady Marlboro

I didn't mean to open up such a can of worms asking about a diplomatic passport. I guess one of the reasons I wondered about it was because I don't think the US is going to recognize her British title (ie HRH Duchess of X) on her US passport. I still think all of this is going to be a mess.

I am sure her passport will say Rachel Meghan Mountbatten-Windsor until she officially become a citizen. Her title will be recognized wherever she goes regardless.

[Countessmeout]

Originally Posted by ACO

I am sure her passport will say Rachel Meghan Mountbatten-Windsor until she officially become a citizen. Her title will be recognized wherever she goes regardless.

Or possibly simply Rachel Meghan Markle. Harry technically doesn't have a last name, as he is a male line member who has a royal title (Mountbatten-Windsor is used by male line family members without the HRH). When William and Kate filed a law suit in France, Kate was Catherine Middleton on the law suit. Now that was because France is under Napoleonic law, but still. With American ID, its not automatic that your name changes when you marry. Meghan wouldn't be the first American married woman to keep her last name. It would be simple for her to maintain her last name on the paper work in the US, until her citizenship comes through in the UK.

[ACO]

She might keep it. It is less paperwork to just keep everything the same. Why change it twice unless there was a stink from elsewhere. I would assume they will rather make it as smoothly as possible.

[jacqui24]

So if Meghan doesn’t change her name. Would her name be appearing as Rachel Meghan Markle in any child’s birth certificate? I can just see the headlines now.

[Countessmeout]

Originally Posted by jacqui24

So if Meghan doesn’t change her name. Would her name be appearing as Rachel Meghan Markle in any child’s birth certificate? I can just see the headlines now.

No. In the UK she doesn't require a surname. The birth certificate would read like Kate's did on her kids, Rachel Meghan, HRH Duchess of X. The UK recognizes titles, so she can use the title as her surname on the certificate. It is when they require a surname, the question comes up. In France for the law suit, and for Meghan on US travel documents, a surname is required.

[Terri Terri]

Harry and Meghan strike me as the kind of people who would like their children to make their own way in life and not be encumbered with titles. After all, WIlliam and Kate are on their third child and may have a fourth. And the children of Harry and Meghan will have their mother as an example of someone who didn't need a title to be involved in charitable endeavours. Their children will also be American citizens and may choose to live in the USA.

[texankitcat]

[QUOTE=Terri Terri;2065634]Harry and Meghan strike me as the kind of people who would like their children to make their own way in life and not be encumbered with titles. After all, WIlliam and Kate are on their third child and may have a fourth. And the children of Harry and Meghan will have their mother as an example of someone who didn't need a title to be involved in charitable endeavours. Their children will also be American citizens and may choose to live in the USA.[/QUOTE

What makes you so sure their children will be also be American citizens? It is highly unlikely Meghan will be allowed to keep her American citizenship marrying the son of a future King. Harry is a high profile and senior member of the Royal family and part of an ancient institution which is steeped in ancient traditions. There has been some modernization in recent years, but I just don’t see an American marrying a senior member of this institution and keeping their citizenship as one of them, nor should there be. She is signing up to represent the monarchy and to serve the people of the commonwealth as a member of the British Royal Family.....not America. I can’t imagine parliament allowing any other outcome other than her giving up her American citizenship.

[O-H Anglophile]

Originally Posted by texankitcat

What makes you so sure their children will be also be American citizens? It is highly unlikely Meghan will be allowed to keep her American citizenship marrying the son of a future King. Harry is a high profile and senior member of the Royal family and part of an ancient institution which is steeped in ancient traditions. There has been some modernization in recent years, but I just don’t see an American marrying a senior member of this institution and keeping their citizenship as one of them, nor should there be. She is signing up to represent the monarchy and to serve the people of the commonwealth as a member of the British Royal Family.....not America. I can’t imagine parliament allowing any other outcome other than her giving up her American citizenship.

If it takes 5 years for Meghan to obtain British citizenship, it is quite likely M & H will have at least one, possibly two children before that. Those children would automatically have dual citizenship.

[Countessmeout]

[QUOTE=texankitcat;2065661]

Originally Posted by Terri Terri

Harry and Meghan strike me as the kind of people who would like their children to make their own way in life and not be encumbered with titles. After all, WIlliam and Kate are on their third child and may have a fourth. And the children of Harry and Meghan will have their mother as an example of someone who didn't need a title to be involved in charitable endeavours. Their children will also be American citizens and may choose to live in the USA.[/QUOTE

What makes you so sure their children will be also be American citizens? It is highly unlikely Meghan will be allowed to keep her American citizenship marrying the son of a future King. Harry is a high profile and senior member of the Royal family and part of an ancient institution which is steeped in ancient traditions. There has been some modernization in recent years, but I just don’t see an American marrying a senior member of this institution and keeping their citizenship as one of them, nor should there be. She is signing up to represent the monarchy and to serve the people of the commonwealth as a member of the British Royal Family.....not America. I can’t imagine parliament allowing any other outcome other than her giving up her American citizenship.

Meghan wont be a UK citizen for five years. In that time she will still be an American. Any children born during that time will be American citizens, automatically. Their citizenship cant be renounced by their parents, they can only renounce it when they hit 18 for themselves. So unless Harry and Meghan wait five years to have kids, their children will be American.

[texankitcat]

Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile

If it takes 5 years for Meghan to obtain British citizenship, it is quite likely M & H will have at least one, possibly two children before that. Those children would automatically have dual citizenship.

I didn’t believe for a second that she would follow the standard citizenship wait time any more than I believed that Camilla will not be Queen Consort when Charles ascends the throne when that was announced. Neither makes any sense and both are steeped in unnecessary complications in order to appease critics. I believe Camilla will be Queen Consort when the day comes, since public opinion has warmed to over time, and Meghan will be expedited in getting her British citizenship behind the sceenes in order to avoid the scenario you described and many others. What they tell the public about The citizenship issue is another matter.

[BorgQueen]

I have some little experience working in Dept Citizenship and Border Force here in Aust. and while I do not know the Acts governing UK dept I can tell you that in Aust. the Minister has the authority to approve an application himself anytime he wants to. People often do not know if they do not work in gov. but most Acts allow Ministers to devolve or deligate their authority and it is those delegates (Director Generals who themselves can delegate and so on) who usually sign off the relevant paperwork you see in everyday life.

However, the Minister retains the authority and he can expidite any application he wants. This happens very frequently with VIPs. There is nothing to stop a Minister from approving an application the day it is submitted if he wants.

I would expect Meghans citizenship to be expidited for many reasons but one in partcular is so she can travel overseas as a representative of the UK. That way her security and travel expenses etc would be paid by the UK gov as it is for the Royals (I guess?)when they travel at the request of their gov. It would also make the financial arrangements easier for the receiving country as well I would think.

[PetticoatLane]

Expedited citizenship would look very, very bad for the BRF and Harry and Meghan in particular.

It would be followed by many a sob story in the press of families who have to live apart while they wait for the citizenship stuff to be complete, or people deported for overstaying their visas leaving children motherless etc. etc. while Meghan gets special treatment. Of course all that would have nothing to do with Meghan but the 'optics' of it would be damaging for all involved.

Was citizenship not expedited for the hereditary grand duchess in Luxemburg? Even in tiny little Luxemburg, with the kind of uncritical press the BRF could only dream of having, I seem to remember that didn't go down well.

[BorgQueen]

I'm sure some sections of the media (the DF obviously) would have a fit over it but then, they have a fit over anything, and nothing, to suit their own agenda on any given day. I really don't think the Uk gov. and the Royal family are going to be particularly worried since I think they have the more serious matters of funding their trips, their security and having Meghan an offical representative of the UK gov. with all the protections and privliges that would involve. Besides, no matter the RF do, they will be criticised by some in the media so I think they will simply do whatever they need to do to get the job done.

If the citizenship thing isn't sorted the media will raise all sorts of issues. For instance, if she and Harry were to be invited to visit by the Chinese gov and had a meeting with Xi Jinping, is Meghan there representing US if she is not a UK citizen? They would accuse her of all sorts of fantasical conspiracy theory nonsense.

Having said that, her US citizenship would also confer on her protections, but not for representing the UK gov in an official capacity. That's a different kettle of fish altogther.

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by BorgQueen

I have some little experience working in Dept Citizenship and Border Force here in Aust. and while I do not know the Acts governing UK dept I can tell you that in Aust. the Minister has the authority to approve an application himself anytime he wants to. People often do not know if they do not work in gov. but most Acts allow Ministers to devolve or deligate their authority and it is those delegates (Director Generals who themselves can delegate and so on) who usually sign off the relevant paperwork you see in everyday life.

However, the Minister retains the authority and he can expidite any application he wants. This happens very frequently with VIPs. There is nothing to stop a Minister from approving an application the day it is submitted if he wants.

I would expect Meghans citizenship to be expidited for many reasons but one in partcular is so she can travel overseas as a representative of the UK. That way her security and travel expenses etc would be paid by the UK gov as it is for the Royals (I guess?)when they travel at the request of their gov. It would also make the financial arrangements easier for the receiving country as well I would think.

I am pretty sure that the UK government or parliament (whoever it takes under British law) could expedite Meghan's naturalization process. In other countries, that wouldn't be an issue; in fact, it was done to Mary Donaldson in Denmark and to Máxima Zorreguieta in the Netherlands without any controversy. In the UK, however, I agree that the possibility of fast-track naturalization has become a political issue. The BBC already had an article on its website saying that Meghan would have to go through the "normal naturalization process" like any other ordinary person and the Palace seemed to confirm it. I don't see how they could go back on that promise. If they wanted to, however, I suppose there is one strong argument: the moment Meghan marries Harry, she will automatically become a princess of the United Kingdom and it would be weird for a princess of the United Kingdom not to be a UK citizen !

On the dual citizenship of the kids though, is it really automatic or would it have to be requested, e.g. by applying for a U.S passport at a U.S. embassy or consulate ?

[O-H Anglophile]

Since Meghan lived in the US more than five years of her life with at least 2 of those years after age 14, I read the applicable section to say yes, any children would automatically be US citizens.

[jacqui24]

Her children born while she is a US citizen would automatically carry dual citizenship. She can renounce once she is British citizen, but the children won’t be able to to until age of majority. There is no way around it. The U.K. government can’t change the law to make them non-US citizen as that’s governed by US law, the only to prevent the children from being US citizen is if they expedite Meghan’s British citizenship and have her renounce her US citizenship prior to giving birth.

I’m beginning to think that given Harry and Meghan’s child/children will unlikely to hold public roles, there is actually an advantage to them being US citizens. It’d certainly be easier for them if they choose to live in US to avoid some of the scrutiny. As facinated as we are, we don’t run royal related stories on a daily basis like in U.K.. And if there is any concern over money they are being set up with, just leave them in US accounts and be only subjected to US tax laws. I don’t know what the tax rate is in U.K., but they wouldn’t be subjected to ordinary income tax here, only investment tax, which is typically lower. The long term capital gains tax was 15%. Haven’t checked the new tax law yet, but they would either hold or be lower.

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by jacqui24

Her children born while she is a US citizen would automatically carry dual citizenship. She can renounce once she is British citizen, but the children won’t be able to to until age of majority. There is no way around it. The U.K. government can’t change the law to make them non-US citizen as that’s governed by US law, the only to prevent the children from being US citizen is if they expedite Meghan’s British citizenship and have her renounce her US citizenship prior to giving birth.

I’m beginning to think that given Harry and Meghan’s child/children will unlikely to hold public roles, there is actually an advantage to them being US citizens. It’d certainly be easier for them if they choose to live in US to avoid some of the scrutiny. As facinated as we are, we don’t run royal related stories on a daily basis like in U.K.. And if there is any concern over money they are being set up with, just leave them in US accounts and be only subjected to US tax laws. I don’t know what the tax rate is in U.K., but they wouldn’t be subjected to ordinary income tax here, only investment tax, which is typically lower. The long term capital gains tax was 15%. Haven’t checked the new tax law yet, but they would either hold or be lower.

As I mentioned in another post, Princess Madeleine's children are US citizens (Leonore even has a US passport) and that is not an issue in Sweden although, under Swedish law, they might actually lose their place in the line of succession to the throne if they are not "raised within the realm" (whatever that means, as nobody seems to know exactly).

I don't think that Prince Harry's children being dual citizens would be an issue either in the UK. My previous question was not that his kids won't have an automatic right to US citizenship, but rather whether that citizenship will be acknowledged by the US government if they never apply for a US passport or live in the US for example. That is what I am not sure about. For example, under the previous scenario, would the IRS ever approach them to collect US taxes on their income ?

[O-H Anglophile]

Originally Posted by Mbruno

As I mentioned in another post, Princess Madeleine's children are US citizens (Leonore even has a US passport) and that is not an issue in Sweden although, under Swedish law, they might actually lose their place in the line of succession to the throne if they are not "raised within the realm" (whatever that means, as nobody seems to know exactly).

I don't think that Prince Harry's children being dual citizens would be an issue either in the UK. My previous question was not that his kids won't have an automatic right to US citizenship, but rather whether that citizenship will be acknowledged by the US government if they never apply for a US passport or live in the US for example. That is what I am not sure about. For example, under the previous scenario, would the IRS ever approach them to collect US taxes on their income ?

Leonore was actually born in New York so that is an unrelated situation.
What I was reading about citizenship seems to indicate that formal procedures have to occur to claim citizenship for a child born abroad and living abroad with a U.S. citizen parent living abroad. It seems some rules were tightened up and specified February 2001 with the Child Citizenship Act.

[jacqui24]

I don’t see why not if they can prove the children owe taxes. They are citizens regardless if they apply for a US passport or not. That’s just proof of citizenship, not citizenship itself. Many people who might not have known they are US citizens can claim ignorance. Just don’t see that flying with the royals.