Meghan Markle: Citizenship and Religious Conversion

[Iluvbertie]

I teach at a CoE school here in Australia. We run confirmation classes for 6 weeks in Term 3 (August - September) over lunchtimes for any student who is interested - we used to do it after school and weren't getting any takers but with it at lunchtime - once a week for six weeks we get about a dozen a year. They will then be confirmed in a service at the end of Week 6 Term 3 - so six 30 minutes sessions to prepare for confirmation. They do have to be baptised before being confirmed and quite a few get baptised at 9.00 a.m. and then confirmed at the 10.00 a.m. service so both on the same day.

It certainly doesn't take six months of classes or instruction - a few weeks at most.

[Gaudete]

Preparation for confirmation is usually only a brief course. Baptism is a little different and the average for most Christian denominations that are sacramental churches is around 6 months, at least here in the UK. Having said that, I know of some Catholic Churches which spread their RCIA course to a full year and there’s a Russian Orthodox Cathedral in London which sets a period of two years (!).

The average for “high Church” Anglicans in the UK however is around six months if a person is to be baptised and confirmed as an adult. It’s felt that this gives a person enough time to contemplate their decision but also to see both major festivals in the liturgical year - Christmas and Easter. This is also true of the majority of Catholic and Orthodox churches who offer reception classes.

[cepe]

Originally Posted by Gaudete

Preparation for confirmation is usually only a brief course. Baptism is a little different and the average for most Christian denominations that are sacramental churches is around 6 months, at least here in the UK. Having said that, I know of some Catholic Churches which spread their RCIA course to a full year and there’s a Russian Orthodox Cathedral in London which sets a period of two years (!).

The average for “high Church” Anglicans in the UK however is around six months if a person is to be baptised and confirmed as an adult. It’s felt that this gives a person enough time to contemplate their decision but also to see both major festivals in the liturgical year - Christmas and Easter. This is also true of the majority of Catholic and Orthodox churches who offer reception classes.

"practical hat on" - I would guess that six months is 1-2 hours a week.
Young people are at school/college and adults prob working. But that's 26-52 hours. Meghan could reduce the lapsed time considerably.

Is 1-2 hrs a week a fair assessment?

[Gaudete]

Usually yes. Most likely, Meghan will have weekly meetings for around an hour or two from now until Easter with the priest who will perform her baptism/confirmation. This isn’t a strict rule however and it could be that she’ll receive instruction from a local priest but a senior priest or Bishop will actually baptism and confirm her.

[royal rob]

I think she will have a few meetings but nothing like 2 hours a week. Maybe 3 or 4 meetings full up let’s face it she isn’t religious. She’s doing it because she is marrying Harry and it makes things easier.

[Pranter]

I don't think we know enough details to say she's converting just to marry Harry.


LaRae

[O-H Anglophile]

Some people have strong spiritual beliefs without formally belonging to a certain church. We can't know all the reasons Meghan is joining the church--marrying Harry is probably a contributing factor, like marriage is is for many people.

[Cocoasneeze]

Originally Posted by royal rob

I think she will have a few meetings but nothing like 2 hours a week. Maybe 3 or 4 meetings full up let’s face it she isn’t religious. She’s doing it because she is marrying Harry and it makes things easier.

How do you know this? Anything to back it up? None of us know anything of her personal religious beliefs, we simply cant make assumptions like that.

[ACO]

What are the chances of The Queen changing the letters again to allow Harry's kid to be born as Prince/Princess like she did for Charlotte and #3? I know once she pass they will automatically get the titles but I hope she lives to be 100+ like her mother. Haha.

Not that I think Harry or Meghan will care. In fact they probably don't.

Also how does that effect them their kids if Meghan births them if she is still in transition to becomes officially a British citizen? Will they speed it up or does she wait the entire 5 years. I suspect they will have at least two kids in that time frame.

[Zaira]

I honestly do not expect their children will get the prince/princess title until Charles, and even then I expect they will go the route of Edward and Sophie and prefer their children to be styled as "lord" and "lady."

[Countessmeout]

Originally Posted by royal rob

I think she will have a few meetings but nothing like 2 hours a week. Maybe 3 or 4 meetings full up let’s face it she isn’t religious. She’s doing it because she is marrying Harry and it makes things easier.

Lets face it....you don't know any more about her then you know about what the man across the street is thinking. So stop claiming you know FACT.

The archbishop has spoken to her, to both of the couple. And has said he sees true commitment to faith in her.

Reality is religion is a personal choice. Some of us have no choice if we are religious growing up, or the opposite. If my grandparents would have not disowned us if my parents hadn't baptized us, we'd never have been. We never went to church without them. We were never communion, confession, confirmation. The only reason I had any religious background was because I went to Catholic school, not out of faith but because it was the best school when we moved. I MADE the choice as an adult to commit myself to going to church and being more religious. Not much younger then Meghan is now. Some adults raised in the faith turn back on it. Some not raised in it, choose to pursue it.

You're right, she probably doesn't need many meetings. Because as you constantly over look, she isn't some unreligious atheist. She does have a Christian background whether baptized or not. She was raised in an Episcopalian house (dad) even if not baptized. She went to catholic school where she would have attended mass and gone to religion class. She isn't coming at this without any basis for it.

She didn't need to be baptized to marry Harry. Simply attend church with the family on holidays and raise her kids Anglican. She CHOSE to.

[Ish]

Originally Posted by ACO

What are the chances of The Queen changing the letters again to allow Harry's kid to be born as Prince/Princess like she did for Charlotte and #3? I know once she pass they will automatically get the titles but I hope she lives to be 100+ like her mother. Haha.

Not that I think Harry or Meghan will care. In fact they probably don't.

Also how does that effect them their kids if Meghan births them if she is still in transition to becomes officially a British citizen? Will they speed it up or does she wait the entire 5 years. I suspect they will have at least two kids in that time frame.

This is off topic for this thread (perhaps the mods can move it to the titles thread?), but I think if the Queen does so it will depend on 2 things:

1. Charles’ commitment to the idea of scaling down the monarchy; if it’s true that he wants to make the monarchy smaller going forward, he may be against changing the LPs to make all his grandchildren royals, and

2. Whether or not Harry and Meghan want their children to ever be royals; it might be their desire to follow the example lead by the Wessexes, and have their children styled as the children of a Duke, and not as royals themselves.

I can see pros and cons in both cases, but I think ultimately it’ll depend on how the monarchy is going to be structured in the future, and the role that Harry and Meghan (and Charles and William) want for their children in that future.

As to her citizenship... there are so many variables that I think it might be too soon to tell. It’s not clear now if Meghan wants to give up her US citizenship down the line or not, nor is it clear how much backlash they’ll face if she doesn’t give up her citizenship. To me, I think they’re playing it safe by starting out following the proper procedures; better to start out doing so and only expedite things when it becomes necessary to do so - as the taxes or the citizenship of their children actually becomes an issue.

[Alliec76]

Originally Posted by ACO

What are the chances of The Queen changing the letters again to allow Harry's kid to be born as Prince/Princess like she did for Charlotte and #3? I know once she pass they will automatically get the titles but I hope she lives to be 100+ like her mother. Haha.

Not that I think Harry or Meghan will care. In fact they probably don't.

Also how does that effect them their kids if Meghan births them if she is still in transition to becomes officially a British citizen? Will they speed it up or does she wait the entire 5 years. I suspect they will have at least two kids in that time frame.

I kind of feel like they are going to have to stick to whatever their decision is. Either she gets a sped up British Citizenship, or she goes about citizenship in the normal time frame. They announced that she was pursuing British Citizenship and would be following normal protocol. Now they could change that, but I think that might invite backlash. It would have just been easier to say upfront, that Meghan is a special/unique case so her process would be expedited. Just get the uproar out of the way. They didn't. So that leads me to believe they've thought through all the implications and they are serious about her going about citizenship the regular way. I just don't believe they haven't thought this through.But there are a lot of moving parts so things could change.

What we do know is she can't give up her US citizenship, until she is a British citizen, because a person can't be stateless. So if her American Citizenship becomes some huge problem, the only way to fix it, is to make her a British Citizen.

[ACO]

Originally Posted by Ish

This is off topic for this thread (perhaps the mods can move it to the titles thread?), but I think if the Queen does so it will depend on 2 things:

1. Charles’ commitment to the idea of scaling down the monarchy; if it’s true that he wants to make the monarchy smaller going forward, he may be against changing the LPs to make all his grandchildren royals, and

2. Whether or not Harry and Meghan want their children to ever be royals; it might be their desire to follow the example lead by the Wessexes, and have their children styled as the children of a Duke, and not as royals themselves.

I can see pros and cons in both cases, but I think ultimately it’ll depend on how the monarchy is going to be structured in the future, and the role that Harry and Meghan (and Charles and William) want for their children in that future.

As to her citizenship... there are so many variables that I think it might be too soon to tell. It’s not clear now if Meghan wants to give up her US citizenship down the line or not, nor is it clear how much backlash they’ll face if she doesn’t give up her citizenship. To me, I think they’re playing it safe by starting out following the proper procedures; better to start out doing so and only expedite things when it becomes necessary to do so - as the taxes or the citizenship of their children actually becomes an issue.

Thank you. Sorry it was in the wrong thread. Apologies.

As for Meghan, I can't imagine she stays a US citizen. I think that is more hassle than it is worth overall especially where taxes are concerned. I just wonder more how it affects their future children because seems it will be a good chance they will be dual citizens if the plan is to have her go the normal route like everyone else which honestly surprises me.

[Ish]

Originally Posted by ACO

Thank you. Sorry it was in the wrong thread. Apologies.

As for Meghan, I can't imagine she stays a US citizen. I think that is more hassle than it is worth overall especially where taxes are concerned. I just wonder more how it affects their future children because seems it will be a good chance they will be dual citizens if the plan is to have her go the normal route like everyone else which honestly surprises me.

Originally Posted by Alliec76

I kind of feel like they are going to have to stick to whatever their decision is. Either she gets a sped up British Citizenship, or she goes about citizenship in the normal time frame. They announced that she was pursuing British Citizenship and would be following normal protocol. Now they could change that, but I think that might invite backlash. It would have just been easier to say upfront, that Meghan is a special/unique case so her process would be expedited. Just get the uproar out of the way. They didn't. So that leads me to believe they've thought through all the implications and they are serious about her going about citizenship the regular way. I just don't believe they haven't thought this through.But there are a lot of moving parts so things could change.

What we do know is she can't give up her US citizenship, until she is a British citizen, because a person can't be stateless. So if her American Citizenship becomes some huge problem, the only way to fix it, is to make her a British Citizen.

Replying to these together because they're to do with the same thing.

This is what I think is happening here:
1. I'm not sure if Meghan is entirely decided on retaining or renouncing her US citizenship; there has been a vagueness about her plans regarding that, which make me think she hasn't decided. It might be that she wants to keep her citizenship, but is also unsure of what problems that doing so will create, or it might be that she's not entirely sure yet.
2. Given the current political situation in the UK, I actually think it's very smart of them to announce that Meghan is going about getting her citizenship through the regular process. The British public is lukewarm to her as it is, her skipping to the head of the citizenship line isn't going to make them any friends at this stage in the game.
3. That said, if next year Meghan's citizenship creates a tax issue - how much do you think the British public is going to like a British Royal having to pay US taxes - then they could in all possibility go "in the interest of keeping British funds in Britain, Meghan's citizenship is being expedited and she will be giving up her US citizenship." I only think that'll happen if the taxes becomes an issue to the British public; if it doesn't, then I think she'll stick with the slow path.
4. I don't think they're going to worry about the citizenship of any future children until Meghan's actually pregnant. We don't know what timeline they're going to want to start having a family in, and we also don't know how quickly they'll be able to conceive once they start trying. It could very well be that 5 years down the line they won't have children yet, and thus Meghan's citizenship never becomes an issue. Or it could be that this time next year they could be expecting their first child and are facing backlash because of that child's potential citizenship, in which case they go "in the interest of keeping the British Royal Family British, Meghan's citizenship is being expedited and she will be giving up her US citizenship."

They don't gain anything by expediting her citizenship from the get go - it's just going to aggravate the public and be seen as the BRF being above the rules. But, if they say they're going to follow the rules at the start, then change that when the public start getting upset by what that entails, they can go "well, we tried, but were pushed into breaking the rules by the public."

[Alliec76]

Originally Posted by Ish

Replying to these together because they're to do with the same thing.


They don't gain anything by expediting her citizenship from the get go - it's just going to aggravate the public and be seen as the BRF being above the rules. But, if they say they're going to follow the rules at the start, then change that when the public start getting upset by what that entails, they can go "well, we tried, but were pushed into breaking the rules by the public."

I think you're correct. I think they at least want to try, at the outset to go the normal route, as it buys her some goodwill. Can you imagine in this current climate regarding immigration, in both the UK and the US, an American just jumping to the front of the citizenship line? ("Oh America wants everyone to respect their immigration laws and now one of their own comes over here and wants to circumvent ours?") Maybe I'm overly sensitive to that because I am American and I know how we can be perceived. That no one else's laws/rules really matter but ours. This way if they must expedite it, as you say they will be able to rightly say we tried, but the public was up in arms.

And I think you may be correct that Meghan isn't totally sure. Giving up ones nationality isn't necessarily an easy thing. It can hold a deep emotional meaning for some people. I'm not sure if people are giving enough weight to that. For a lot of people their nationality is part of their identity. I personally can't imagine ever doing it. (The US can be crazy, like now, but I love it.) I also have never met and fallen in love with a British prince, (or any prince LOL) soooo perhahps if that happened I'd feel differently. :-) However, I think if it got to the point that Meghan had to do it, she will do it and she is prepared to do it. She wouldn't have agreed to marry Harry if she wasn't. But giving up her citizenship is a moot point until she is a British citizen. Whenever that happens.

[royal rob]

Originally Posted by Cocoasneeze

How do you know this? Anything to back it up? None of us know anything of her personal religious beliefs, we simply cant make assumptions like that.

If she had strong beliefs I don’t think she would wait till she was getting married to get baptized etc and it will make life easier for her. But your right she might be very very religious in which case she wouldn’t need too many hours being trained

[ACO]

You gave solid points. Meghan is going to be 37 next year so I don't see them taking their sweet time conceiving. I can't imagine it will be easy for her to give up her citizenship but I also think she realizes she likely will have too.

[Alliec76]

Originally Posted by ACO

You gave solid points. Meghan is going to be 37 next year so I don't see them taking their sweet time conceiving. I can't imagine it will be easy for her to give up her citizenship but I also think she realizes she likely will have too.

Agreed on both counts.

[Denville]

Originally Posted by royal rob

If she had strong beliefs I don’t think she would wait till she was getting married to get baptized etc and it will make life easier for her. But your right she might be very very religious in which case she wouldn’t need too many hours being trained

I find it hard to believe she's "very very religious", if she hasn't been a regular church goer or at least gone through the rite of baptism...