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  #381  
Old 12-14-2017, 04:34 PM
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Yes, clergy could marry Harry and Meghan even when the queen does not approve of the marriage but the church and queen consult and it wouldn't be by a senior church leader as that would be considered an affront to the queen. The only exception would be if the queen withholds her permission but also clearly explains to the church that she would be fine with (fill in the blank).

It is not a black and white situation. While both the queen and the archbisshop (or other senior clergy) have distinct roles, they will try to avoid anything that might look like a disagreement or conflict. So, before the announcement was made and official permission was granted, I am quite sure these things were discussed and no objections found (so all of the above seems a hypothetical problem; I don't see any evidence to suggest that Meghan had to be 'forced' to make the decision she made; nor do I see evidence for a serious difference of opinion between queen and church).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Lets remember one simple fact here. When Harry has to ask permission to marry, he's not asking his grandmother for permission. He's asking his monarch for permission to marry. The monarch has certain criteria of how to deem whether or not to give permission and that is discussed with her Privy Counsel before any permission is given. This is solely as her role as the monarch. (...)

Granny's religious beliefs are her own and I do not think she would ever *force* the way she practices her beliefs or the way she would prefer someone else behave and practice as she sees it as a condition to marry. To even suggest that she would even *think* to impose conditions on one's religious or spiritual path is just totally preposterous. But that's just me.
Exactly because she has to give permission 'as the monarch', which includes being the head of the Church of England, it is not unreasonable to think that religious issues are considered (not as a go/no go, but as part of the full picture). Until very recently, anyone marrying a catholic would automatically be excluded (and Harry becoming a catholic would still exclude him - so as the monarch she (or more precisely, the law) imposes conditions on Harry's religious path), so, if the queen would worry about Meghan setting Harry up against the Church of England that would be something that would not be taken lightly...
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  #382  
Old 12-14-2017, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Exactly because she has to give permission 'as the monarch', which includes being the head of the Church of England, it is not unreasonable to think that religious issues are considered (not as a go/no go, but as part of the full picture). Until very recently, anyone marrying a catholic would automatically be excluded (and Harry becoming a catholic would still exclude him - so as the monarch she (or more precisely, the law) imposes conditions on Harry's religious path), so, if the queen would worry about Meghan setting Harry up against the Church of England that would be something that would not be taken lightly...
But even if she's not baptized, Meghan isn't setting Harry up against the CoE. Even if she were Catholic, that wouldn't be cause to deny permission in today's world. As much as we like to think the monarch having all out power over this, there is a sense of what is reasonable in this day and age. And I would say blackmail someone into a religion isn't it. Nor do I believe this Queen would.

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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Yes, clergy could marry Harry and Meghan even when the queen does not approve of the marriage but the church and queen consult and it wouldn't be by a senior church leader as that would be considered an affront to the queen. The only exception would be if the queen withholds her permission but also clearly explains to the church that she would be fine with (fill in the blank).

It is not a black and white situation. While both the queen and the archbisshop (or other senior clergy) have distinct roles, they will try to avoid anything that might look like a disagreement or conflict. So, before the announcement was made and official permission was granted, I am quite sure these things were discussed and no objections found (so all of the above seems a hypothetical problem; I don't see any evidence to suggest that Meghan had to be 'forced' to make the decision she made; nor do I see evidence for a serious difference of opinion between queen and church).
I honestly don't think it ever came to that being a serious thing the Queen and clergy had to discuss. Meghan isn't dumb. Her and Harry talked about how he's been preparing her for other things. I highly doubt this topic just got dropped. Chances are, she's already of Christian faith and didn't see much problems with it. And really, if she was really set against it out of personal conviction, I still don't see the Queen getting all upset over it given she would understand what it is like to have deep spiritual beliefs.
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  #383  
Old 12-14-2017, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by jacqui24 View Post
But even if she's not baptized, Meghan isn't setting Harry up against the CoE. Even if she were Catholic, that wouldn't be cause to deny permission in today's world. As much as we like to think the monarch having all out power over this, there is a sense of what is reasonable in this day and age. And I would say blackmail someone into a religion isn't it. Nor do I believe this Queen would.
I responded to a post that said that the queen would not impose any conditions regarding religious beliefs on anyone. I don't agree with that assessment - a religious condition is already imposed on Harry and everyone else who wants to stay in the line to the throne (and especially on Charles, William and George, they cannot ascend the throne if they are not in communion with the Church of England!), so religious beliefs are relevant as part of the queen's reasoning to either grant or not grant her permission.

In the hypothetical situation that (or IF for short) the queen would be concerned about Meghan setting Harry up against the church (which she clearly isn't, I never suggested that not being baptized was equal to that) that would surely be taken into consideration - the queen wouldn't completely ignore that aspect. It might not be the decisive factor but it won't be passed over either - and some conversations might be needed. Again, I don't see a reason to think that is currently the case but in today's world that still is possible.

If for example George would want to marry someone of a different faith and this person insists that any children will be brought up in that faith, that could be a reason to withhold permission - as his oldest child is supposed to ascend the throne one day and currently would not be able to do so in those circumstances.
  #384  
Old 12-14-2017, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
Before the clergy can perform the wedding Harry needs The Queen’s blessing unless we’re going completely of the charts and Harry quits the Firm.

I know the clergy can perform the ceremony but unlike almost every other person Harry needs his grandmothers permission and I don’t think he would ignore The Queen’s ‘suggestion’
Not true! Harry needs his sovereign's permission to marry to stay in the line of succession. The clergy performing the ceremony do not need the Queen's permission.

Just because some people don't like or approve of Meghan doesn't change facts.

If Meghan had strong religious beliefs other than those similar to the Anglican church, but agreed to raise any children in the church I don't believe there would be any issues.
It seems to me though, Meghan was raised in a generic Christian background and she has no problems with formalizing her relationship with religion to join her husband's family in worship. Lots of people do the same thing.
  #385  
Old 12-14-2017, 05:56 PM
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What the Queen could have done is refused permission for the marriage to take place in a "royal peculiar".

I'm not saying she would but that is one of two powers she has, the other being Harry's place in the line of succession.


This is a woman who is famed for avoiding confrontation. She wouldn't refuse anything, but she might have recommended.
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  #386  
Old 12-14-2017, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
I responded to a post that said that the queen would not impose any conditions... to stay in the line to the throne (and especially on Charles, William and George, they cannot ascend the throne if they are not in communion with the Church of England!), so religious beliefs are relevant as part of the queen's reasoning to either grant or not grant her permission.
I am not disagreeing with you. I'd just add that the modifier you use "ESPECIALLY" means that there is relevance and then there is relevance, depending on who you are in the family. She cannot order anyone to have faith. She can only hope for that. But I have always observed the degree of communion with COE to be a sliding scale for the BRF depending on the times, the person in question, the ruler. And the UK is no different on this same issue of faith than in other countries.
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  #387  
Old 12-14-2017, 07:03 PM
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At the end of the day, Meghan is seeking to be confirmed and baptised in the Anglican Communion as part of the COE, something that most royal brides have done in recent times including Kate and Autumn. Meghan comes from a generically Christian background with a strong education in faith values from her middle school to high school years and has volunteered with one of the biggest Christian organizations. Whether in her heart she believes in the particular tenets of the COE or not isn't really our business.

Those trying to not so subtly impugn her for this are just stirring trouble.
  #388  
Old 12-14-2017, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by AdmirerUS View Post
I am not disagreeing with you. I'd just add that the modifier you use "ESPECIALLY" means that there is relevance and then there is relevance, depending on who you are in the family. She cannot order anyone to have faith. She can only hope for that. But I have always observed the degree of communion with COE to be a sliding scale for the BRF depending on the times, the person in question, the ruler. And the UK is no different on this same issue of faith than in other countries.
Completely true. The requirement for the monarch is to be a member of the church not to believe (as that would be an impossible condition - act as if would be the closest they can ask for but is significantly different). Harry in my opinion is close enough to the throne (would something terrible happen with William's family, he is the one to take over) for it to matter.

There is, however, a difference between countries in which the head of state is required to be the member of a specific church (or other religion) compared to countries where there might be an expectation (or not) but no rule. So, the UK differs in this respect from some monarchies (for example, the Dutch) and is comparable to others (for example, the Swedish - although they require everyone in line to be in communion with the Lutheran church which the UK no longer requires for the CoE).
  #389  
Old 12-14-2017, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cepe View Post
What the Queen could have done is refused permission for the marriage to take place in a "royal peculiar".



I'm not saying she would but that is one of two powers she has, the other being Harry's place in the line of succession.





This is a woman who is famed for avoiding confrontation. She wouldn't refuse anything, but she might have recommended.

Correct me if I’m misreading, but what you’re saying here is:

1. The Queen could have refused permission on the grounds that she found Meghan unacceptable, in which case if Harry had gone ahead and married Meghan anyways he would have lost his place in the succession, and
2. The Queen could have granted permission to the marriage, but not granted Harry and Meghan permission to marry at a church which the Queen has jurisdiction over (ie Windsor).

Given as the Queen has both granted permission to the marriage and allowed it to happen at a royal peculiar, I think we can agree that the Queen is on board with this relationship.

To your last point, I agree that it’s unlikely that HM would make any requirements of such a nature (seriously, some of the posts here make it seem like HM is a dictator). First there’s the issue that she is notorious for avoiding confrontation, and second - do we seriously think that someone who takes their religion seriously would demand someone else to convert in such a way? I do think she would make a recommendation, and I think Meghan’s smart enough to realize the benefit.

I mean, really... unless Meghan is an ardent believer in another religion or Christian denomination or an ardent atheist - neither of which there is any evidence to believe is true - then it would make sense for her to join the religious faith of her fiancé’s family, particularly given that they are fairly religious and she is going to be expected to attend church services and raise her future children in the church. It’s something that people all over the world do, so what’s the big deal if that’s what Meghan is doing?
  #390  
Old 12-14-2017, 07:40 PM
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Ish - that's a great translation
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  #391  
Old 12-14-2017, 08:03 PM
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Baptism is a sacrament. It’s a person’s ‘introduction’ to being a Christian and since the CoE recognises the baptisms of most other faiths this means Meghan wasn’t baptised in another denomination.

As I said my opinion is the Queen would suggest Meghan be baptised. Of course she could have refused and IMO there would have been consequences but the fact is Meghan has agreed to be baptised and confirmed.
  #392  
Old 12-14-2017, 08:09 PM
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AOC spoke today about the wedding including his role in it. Nothing has been confirmed, but it looks like it is up to Harry and Meghan if he will officiate. He also makes it very clear that he has had personal conversations with Harry and Meghan about their faith and the wedding. For those who were concerned.

https://www.premier.org.uk/News/UK/H...p-Justin-Welby

Quote:
Speaking on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme, the Archbishop of Canterbury said: “I am very, very sure after conversations that this is no tick-box exercise, ‘we ought to get married in a church’.”

Harry and Ms Markle announced their engagement on November 27 after dating for just over 18 months.

They are due to marry at St George’s Chapel, Windsor Castle, in May.

“There is a profound sense of commitment, of seriousness, both about faith and their lives together, which is quite inspirational.

"It’s important because people look at it and see a model of how two people commit their lives to one another before God in the presence of millions of people.

"It’s always a beautiful moment - every wedding is profoundly beautiful. Even when you drop the rings it’s still a very moving wedding.”

He refused to confirm whether he would be conducting the ceremony, saying “I think that’s up to them”, but revealed he was looking forward to the big event, saying it would be “fun”.
  #393  
Old 12-14-2017, 08:11 PM
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The CoE doesn't recognize baptisms of other faiths - only of other Christian (Trinitarian) denominations. I assume that is what you were trying to express.

I am not so sure that the Queen needed to suggest that it would be recommendable for Meghan to be baptized. I wouldn't be surprised if that was already part of the conversations that Harry had with her over a year ago about what the consequences, implications and expectations would be for her if she decided to marry him.
  #394  
Old 12-14-2017, 08:12 PM
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Yes other Christian denominations
  #395  
Old 12-14-2017, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaira View Post
AOC spoke today about the wedding including his role in it. Nothing has been confirmed, but it looks like it is up to Harry and Meghan if he will officiate. He also makes it very clear that he has had personal conversations with Harry and Meghan about their faith and the wedding. For those who were concerned.

https://www.premier.org.uk/News/UK/H...p-Justin-Welby
See also this post earlier today and the subsequent conversation (given the high number of posts since, I fully understand that you missed it).
  #396  
Old 12-14-2017, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
See also this post earlier today and the subsequent conversation (given the high number of posts since, I fully understand that you missed it).
oops, sorry I had saw some of these posts but thought they were referring to AOC's statement right after the engagement. I didn't see the original post.

Thanks
  #397  
Old 12-14-2017, 09:56 PM
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As for the conversion issue, I don't get the problem. It seems Meghan was raised in a general Christian home. No specific denomination. Not that unusual. At least not in the US. Possibly what we call (jokingly) CME Christians (meaning they go to church on Christmas, Mother's Day and Easter). Now as a Christian she is going to join another denomination. So what's the problem?

Perhaps this is my Americanisim peeking through again. But as was said in an earlier post, American's tend to change denominations frequently. I was raised a Baptist (in the African-American church). I wasn't baptised until I was 14 and old enough to express a desire to do so. We don't do confirmations. You get baptised and that's it. I'm a life long church goer and the church I go to now is non denominational. We focus on being Christian. The worship style is similar to the black church, but it does not identify as Baptist, Methodist, etc. And honestly in America one of the fastest growing church memberships is non-denominational churches. So honestly Meghan may not be that hung up on the denomination part of it, as long as it is Christian she is probably fine with it.

My point being I feel like I'm missing something here. What is the problem with Meghan converting to the Church of England? That's between her and God. If the Queen takes her faith as seriously as has been claimed, I don't see her wanting someone to convert to a faith without them actually wanting to. If that were true (which I don't think it is) as a fellow woman of faith I'd certainly think less of her.
  #398  
Old 12-14-2017, 10:29 PM
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Anyways, back on the topic of her conversion, I'm going to assume the AoC has seen enough in his life to know when someone isn't committed to being baptized and married in the church. I'm sure he's seen more couples than he can count where they aren't really religious, but just want to get married in church because that's how it's done.
  #399  
Old 12-14-2017, 10:41 PM
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As a Catholic all my life, I started going to a non denominational church this year mostly because I love how diverse it is and loved the music. People in my new church come from so many different backgrounds denominationally.

But it is true that in the UK folks who do attend church either go non-denominational or stick to the church of their upbringing. I have a church in London I attend (Catholic)since I am in London so much for work and you just don't see as much denominational drift.
  #400  
Old 12-14-2017, 10:43 PM
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As far as the whole why is she converting issue, we should take Gamaliels advice in Acts 5:39

...For if their purpose or endeavor is of human origin, it will fail. 39But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop them. You may even find yourselves fighting against God.” ...

LaRae
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