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  #21  
Old 11-28-2017, 02:35 PM
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Small but important correction: marriage is not a sacrament in the Anglican Church, like other protestant churches the Anglican church only acknowledges two sacraments: Baptism and Communion (also known as the Eucharist or the Lord's Supper).

It is indeed uncommon for a future royal bride not to be baptized (it also comfirms that religion isn't really important to Harry) but I don't think she is a first. Prince Rudolf of Liechtenstein married the Turkish Tilsim Tanberk; whom I expect to be a muslim.

Thank you for that information, both about the sacraments of the Anglican Church and about Prince Rudolf of Lichtenstein.
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  #22  
Old 11-28-2017, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
Meghan was never baptized? That must be a first for a Royal fiancee marrying into a European House. To be married in the CoE one must be both baptized and Confirmed, just like in the Catholic faith since marriage is considered a Sacrament.



Anyway, I am thrilled that it will be a St. George's as I always knew it would. I have a sentimental weak spot for the jewel of a church.


No you don't I was married in 2012 at a COE church and my husband is neither christened or confirmed and he was a divorcee too. I was christened and confirmed which was enough for the priest.
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  #23  
Old 11-28-2017, 02:43 PM
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Lemon Lyman-

Perhaps you missed it, but my comment was more an observation about a ROYAL non baptized fiancee. I admitted to being incorrect about Anglican doctrine/policy which as a Catholic I am less than familiar with.

As most people know, it's a lot more complicated for a divorcee to marry within the RCC than the CoE, and as for a non baptized person it's even messier.

In fact it simply cannot be done if one of the party is not Catholic.
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  #24  
Old 11-28-2017, 03:07 PM
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The test isn’t difficult. I took it almost 20 years ago when I got married.

Megan Markle will have to take the UK citizenship test to become a Brit before she marries Prince Harry - c...
  #25  
Old 11-28-2017, 03:11 PM
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As for Princess Tilsin; she converted to Christianity before the wedding.
Thanks for that piece of information! That confirms that she wasn't brought up a Christian - so wasn't baptized earlier on (like Meghan; as that was the original question) but converted before the wedding (again, just like Meghan will do).
  #26  
Old 11-28-2017, 04:20 PM
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According to CNN no decision has been made to whether Meghan will keep her US citizenship. So the first step is to apply for British citizenship and afterwards she could eventually decide/be advised to give up her American citizenship.



I don't see how she would be able NOT to retain US citizenship throughout the process. She can hardly be expected to have no nationality for a while.
It probably has to do with taxes. Being a US citizen requires you to pay taxes to your home country even If you don't work there. As a member of the royal family, she "earns" or is given an allowance (once they're married) and it's probably taxable in the US. Someone correct me here because I don't quite know the rules of that tax thingy. I vaguely remember a convo with an expat friend that lived in Canada and worked as an engineer and had to pay taxes to the US as well as Revenue Canada.
  #27  
Old 11-28-2017, 04:31 PM
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It probably has to do with taxes. Being a US citizen requires you to pay taxes to your home country even If you don't work there. As a member of the royal family, she "earns" or is given an allowance and it's probably taxable in the US. Someone correct me here because I don't quite know the rules of that tax thingy. I vaguely remember a convo with an expat friend that lived in Canada and worked as an engineer and had to pay taxes to the US as well as Revenue Canada.
It will take at least 5 years for Meghan to obtain UK citizenship. Her parents are American! I am sure they would object to her giving up her US citizenship, a place where she was born and raised! It is not right to expect that of her! Meghan says she's proud of who she is and where she comes from, well, the US is a part of that.

What's next? Her Mom and Daddy will now move to the UK, and stop celebrating American holidays etc. Part of what makes Meghan unique is that she is American Born.

Emily Andrews posted on Twitter, "Meghan will become dual citizen of the US and the UK."

And that is the way it should be.
  #28  
Old 11-28-2017, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by American Observer7 View Post
It will take at least 5 years for Meghan to obtain UK citizenship. Her parents are American! I am sure they would object to her giving up her US citizenship, a place where she was born and raised! It is not right to expect that of her! Meghan says she's proud of who she is and where she comes from, well, the US is a part of that.

What's next? Her Mom and Daddy will now move to the UK, and stop celebrating American holidays etc. Part of what makes Meghan unique is that she is American Born.
I wasn't advocating she lose/give up her US Citizenship, I was just saying it's probably a tax thing nothing more. Giving up her citizenship is purely her call. I don't think anyone is asking her to do so.
  #29  
Old 11-28-2017, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by American Observer7 View Post
It will take at least 5 years for Meghan to obtain UK citizenship. Her parents are American! I am sure they would object to her giving up her US citizenship, a place where she was born and raised! It is not right to expect that of her! Meghan says she's proud of who she is and where she comes from, well, the US is a part of that.

What's next? Her Mom and Daddy will now move to the UK, and stop celebrating American holidays etc. Part of what makes Meghan unique is that she is American Born.

Emily Andrews posted on Twitter, "Meghan will become dual citizen of the US and the UK."

And that is the way it should be.
It has nothing to do with giving up cultural identity. Speaking as an immigrant, I gave up my citizenship of birth when I became a US citizen. I still celebrate the holidays, but my life is here now and that's what makes the most sense. It's stupid to be paying out and creating all kinds of tax headaches just simply to hold on a piece of paper. We have to remember that it won't just be her. With shared income between spouses, this could create headache and potential tax liability on Harry as well once they become a married couple. A lot of ex-pats are actually turning in their US passports because of the tax issue. It has nothing to do with her parents moving to UK or not either.

And actually, there has been conflicting reporting all day from the royal correspondence due to their interpretation during the briefing. New York Times reached out to KP and the statement they got is that she will remain US citizen during the process of obtaining her UK citizenship. No comment on whether she will be renouncing her US citizenship once that's done. Several royal correspondence have also clarified later that no decision regarding her US citizenship has been made on she becomes UK citizen.
  #30  
Old 11-28-2017, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by jacqui24 View Post
It has nothing to do with giving up cultural identity. Speaking as an immigrant, I gave up my citizenship of birth when I became a US citizen. I still celebrate the holidays, but my life is here now and that's what makes the most sense. It's stupid to be paying out and creating all kinds of tax headaches just simply to hold on a piece of paper. We have to remember that it won't just be her. With shared income between spouses, this could create headache and potential tax liability on Harry as well once they become a married couple. A lot of ex-pats are actually turning in their US passports because of the tax issue. It has nothing to do with her parents moving to UK or not either.

And actually, there has been conflicting reporting all day from the royal correspondence due to their interpretation during the briefing. New York Times reached out to KP and the statement they got is that she will remain US citizen during the process of obtaining her UK citizenship. No comment on whether she will be renouncing her US citizenship once that's done. Several royal correspondence have also clarified later that no decision regarding her US citizenship has been made on she becomes UK citizen.
I was being sarcastic with the part about her parents. And that decision has everything to do with her parents! They brought her into this world! And they are Americans.
  #31  
Old 11-28-2017, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by jacqui24 View Post
It has nothing to do with giving up cultural identity. Speaking as an immigrant, I gave up my citizenship of birth when I became a US citizen. I still celebrate the holidays, but my life is here now and that's what makes the most sense. It's stupid to be paying out and creating all kinds of tax headaches just simply to hold on a piece of paper. We have to remember that it won't just be her. With shared income between spouses, this could create headache and potential tax liability on Harry as well once they become a married couple. A lot of ex-pats are actually turning in their US passports because of the tax issue. It has nothing to do with her parents moving to UK or not either.

And actually, there has been conflicting reporting all day from the royal correspondence due to their interpretation during the briefing. New York Times reached out to KP and the statement they got is that she will remain US citizen during the process of obtaining her UK citizenship. No comment on whether she will be renouncing her US citizenship once that's done. Several royal correspondence have also clarified later that no decision regarding her US citizenship has been made on she becomes UK citizen.
As I said, keeping her US citizenship after she becomes a British citizen won't be seen positively by some people in the UK and might be used to attack the Royal Family, which would be unfortunate. That is why I think she will be advised to give it up when she can of course (as someone mentioned, she can't be stateless, can she ?).
  #32  
Old 11-28-2017, 05:00 PM
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As I said, keeping her US citizenship after she becomes a British citizen won't be seen positively by some people in the UK and might be used to attack the Royal Family, which would be unfortunate. That is why I think she will be advised to give it up when she can of course (as someone mentioned, she can't be stateless, can she ?).
I agree with this assessment. I do think they realize it's a sensitive issue right now as there are a lot of joy in US about her being an American, and so there won't be any announcement of this. In five years, I don't know how many people would get upset over her giving up her US citizenship as she would be well ingrained into the BRF and their causes.
  #33  
Old 11-28-2017, 05:01 PM
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I know most of the members here are happy for the news of Prince Harry and Miss Markle's engagement. I'm sure they are a couple in love and so I truly wish them the best. This said, I am disappointed to learn that Miss Markle is not baptized (nor confirmed of course), had a traditional Jewish first wedding ceremony and yet, she feels she can convert and marry in 5 months with the blessing of the Church of England. Honestly, this is not right. Clearly, she doesn't seem to take religion very seriously and it just looks (like many other "commoner" brides/grooms by the way) like she (or they) just wants the pageantry of a church wedding, but spiritually, it's all very empty. Since her first husband is Jewish, she had a Jewish wedding now her second husband is Church of England so she is going to have a CofE's wedding?

If they chose a Church wedding just to please the Queen or the Royal Family it is still wrong. Since this is her second wedding they could have had a smaller ceremony and a blessing in Church if they wanted to: it would have been a bit more honest. A "fun" wedding is maybe what they should have had.

It's ridiculous to have a "blushing" bride wearing white marrying at St. George's who has already had a Jewish wedding, went to Catholic school but has never been baptized into any Church. I find it all very hypocritical. I'm disappointed. She's getting too many passes. :(
  #34  
Old 11-28-2017, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Juliette2 View Post
I know most of the members here are happy for the news of Prince Harry and Miss Markle's engagement. I'm sure they are a couple in love and so I truly wish them the best. This said, I am disappointed to learn that Miss Markle is not baptized (nor confirmed of course), had a traditional Jewish first wedding ceremony and yet, she feels she can convert and marry in 5 months with the blessing of the Church of England. Honestly, this is not right. Clearly, she doesn't seem to take religion very seriously and it just looks (like many other "commoner" brides/grooms by the way) like she (or they) just wants the pageantry of a church wedding, but spiritually, it's all very empty. (
On this point, I totally agree with you and I expressed similar concerns in previous posts, although not quite as explicitly.
  #35  
Old 11-28-2017, 05:06 PM
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Not everyone was raised religious or becomes religious later in life, but that doesn't mean a marriage is empty because one doesn't believe in a God. Frankly, I find that mindset archaic and not of the modern times.
  #36  
Old 11-28-2017, 05:07 PM
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Do any of you here think other than the Queen and DoE, that most of the BRF take their faith seriously?

We all see them on the Church walk at the obvious holidays. Do any of them, other than the Queen, actually attend services on a regular basis?


LaRae
  #37  
Old 11-28-2017, 05:09 PM
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Probably not.
  #38  
Old 11-28-2017, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Empress Merel View Post
Not everyone was raised religious or becomes religious later in life, but that doesn't mean a marriage is empty because one doesn't believe in a God. Frankly, I find that mindset archaic and not of the modern times.
I don't think that is what she meant. Her point, I guess, is that being baptized as an adult is a big deal and people should only do it out of conviction and on their free will, after receiving proper instruction as catechumens. That is the position of all mainstream Christian churches (Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, etc.) and is not something to be taken lighty, or just to please your groom's family, or to have a church wedding.
  #39  
Old 11-28-2017, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Juliette2 View Post
I know most of the members here are happy for the news of Prince Harry and Miss Markle's engagement. I'm sure they are a couple in love and so I truly wish them the best. This said, I am disappointed to learn that Miss Markle is not baptized (nor confirmed of course), had a traditional Jewish first wedding ceremony and yet, she feels she can convert and marry in 5 months with the blessing of the Church of England. Honestly, this is not right. Clearly, she doesn't seem to take religion very seriously and it just looks (like many other "commoner" brides/grooms by the way) like she (or they) just wants the pageantry of a church wedding, but spiritually, it's all very empty. Since her first husband is Jewish, she had a Jewish wedding now her second husband is Church of England so she is going to have a CofE's wedding?

If they chose a Church wedding just to please the Queen or the Royal Family it is still wrong. Since this is her second wedding they could have had a smaller ceremony and a blessing in Church if they wanted to: it would have been a bit more honest. A "fun" wedding is maybe what they should have had.

It's ridiculous to have a "blushing" bride wearing white marrying at St. George's who has already had a Jewish wedding, went to Catholic school but has never been baptized into any Church. I find it all very hypocritical. I'm disappointed. She's getting too many passes. :(
She didn't have a traditional Jewish wedding. She had a wedding in Jamaica on the beach. They had that chair thing, but honestly I've seen that at weddings where I KNOW the couple isn't Jewish, so that hardly made it a Jewish wedding.

She didn't have to convert unless she wanted to. The Abbey has made it clear before the engagement was announced that inter-faith ceremonies can happen even in the Abbey. So if she really didn't want to convert or be baptized or confirm, there isn't a need for it. She likely wants to because of her future husband and his family's role in the Church of England and because she wants to do this. It's not like she went from no Jesus to Jesus all of sudden. Her parents are already Protestant, even if not practicing. Autumn Phillips even converted from Roman Catholicism to CoE. She even said that in many ways, it's not that different. So I'm not seeing the pass that's given to Meghan here.

What I saw yesterday during the interview is a woman realizing what type of situation she is getting into and is seeing the positive of it. Not only is she willing to commit herself to the man she loves, but she is will to commit herself to supporting the institution that he was born into and supports for the rest of her life. It strike me that she was very realistic about the situation and is EMBRACING it along with her new country and duties. I think that's commendable.
  #40  
Old 11-28-2017, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Empress Merel View Post
Not everyone was raised religious or becomes religious later in life, but that doesn't mean a marriage is empty because one doesn't believe in a God. Frankly, I find that mindset archaic and not of the modern times.
I didn't mean to say that the marriage is empty, not at all. As I said, I'm sure they are in love and I wish them the best as a couple and in raising a family but the ceremony, from a spiritual point of view would appear to be rather empty.

Believing "in a God" is all fine and dandy, but then I would suggest you have a hippy, spiritual wedding on the beach. When you marry with the blessing of a Christian Church (having gone through conversion, baptism, confirmation at a reckless speed!) it is assumed that you do believe and accept the precepts of that Church with honesty and genuine faith. I'm just questioning that.
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