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  #361  
Old 12-14-2017, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Princess Squirrel View Post
Tell me, do you think our Queen also blackmailed Sophie and Autumn? Mike Tindall? All had church weddings, not civil.

Maybe George V blackmailed Princess Marina too who wasnít an Anglican and had two marriage ceremonies - one according to the Anglican Rite and another straight after according to the Greek Orthodox Rite. In fact, Marina worshipped in both churches on alternate Sundays her whole life. And I donít recall George V, Edward VIII, George VI or the present Queen sending her a cease and desist....
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  #362  
Old 12-14-2017, 03:45 PM
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Let's remember to be respectful of one another, please. And let's get back on topic, which is Meghan's religious conversion.
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  #363  
Old 12-14-2017, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
The Queen can set it as a condition for Harry. He needs her permission before the marriage can take place in the first place



If Harry was Joe Bloggs it wouldnít matter but The Queen has standards.

Have you any proof that such a condition was set either for Harry or for any other member of the Royal Family prior to their marriage?
  #364  
Old 12-14-2017, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
The Queen can set it as a condition for Harry. He needs her permission before the marriage can take place in the first place
I think the Queen has learned the lessons about placing unnecessary demands on marriages with Diana and Charles. That's a dangerous threat to make. And would be unusual for this situation. The decisions of who to marry has been about love in her later years. And we should differentiate that Harry doesn't need the Queen's permission to marry in the first place. He can marry whomever he wants whenever he wants in whatever way he wants. And he can do so in a church as long as the officiate is ok with it. He needs her permission in order to stay in the line of succession. And if it really came down to it, I don't doubt that he would marry the person he loves if the demands can't be met.

And let's just be a little careful before we basically go into the territory of accusing the Queen of blackmailing her grandson about his marriage without any evidence.
  #365  
Old 12-14-2017, 03:54 PM
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Just because church is liberal in it dealings doesn’t mean The Queen is. I think not being baptised would be her red line.

Why go through the motions of a church wedding if someone wasn’t willing to be baptised.
  #366  
Old 12-14-2017, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Squirrel View Post
Tell me, do you think our Queen also blackmailed Sophie and Autumn? Mike Tindall? All had church weddings, not civil.
Autumn also became Anglican ahead of her marriage (so Peter would stay in line to the throne). So, in her case it would have had significant consequences (had she stayed catholic) that the queen didn't need to point out.

What were Sophie's and Mike's religious backgrounds that you see a ground for blackmaling (I know you are trying to argue the opposite )? Were they baptized or confirmed shortly before their respective marriages?
  #367  
Old 12-14-2017, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
Just because church is liberal in it dealings doesn’t mean The Queen is. I think not not being baptised would be her red line.

Why go through the motions of a church wedding if someone wasn’t willing to be baptised.
Because Harry is Anglican. There are plenty of people that marry in church even if one of the person doesn't follow the faith. There is a reason why Westminster Abbey spokesperson said they allow for interfaith marriages when Camilla Tominey inquired before the wedding location was announced. There are couples out there that gets married in church maintaining different religions. Again, that isn't something the Queen decides on. It's something the officiate decides on if they are comfortable with.
  #368  
Old 12-14-2017, 03:58 PM
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Just because church is liberal in it dealings doesnít mean The Queen is. I think not not being baptised would be her red line.

Why go through the motions of a church wedding if someone wasnít willing to be baptised.

I can only repeat what I have said. The Queen has no authority over who can and who canít get married in church. Neither can she order any cleric to insist on certain requirements or criteria before marriage. This lays entirely with the General Synod who in turn devolve the individual decision making process to the parish priest.

If you believe the Queen has ordered Meghan to be baptised and confirmed before her marriage as a condition of her permission for the wedding, youíre entitled to that belief. But facts are facts and constitutionally, the Queen has absolutely no authority to determine the policy of the Church of England on the sacrament of marriage.

We can agree to disagree but I would really suggest you research the role played by the Church of England, how itís governed and what its policies are concerning this matter.
  #369  
Old 12-14-2017, 04:02 PM
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What do you base that opinion on. Please let us all know!

And what about confirmation? After all Kate was only confirmed shortly before her wedding, as we know. Or is the fact that Meghan wasn't baptised (as a baby before really one knows anything about it really) what you are objecting to, Rudolph? Or is it that the Archbishop of Canterbury (who has said some very nice things) may well be marrying the couple?
  #370  
Old 12-14-2017, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Gaudete View Post
I can only repeat what I have said. The Queen has no authority over who can and who canít get married in church. Neither can she order any cleric to insist on certain requirements or criteria before marriage. This lays entirely with the General Synod who in turn devolve the individual decision making process to the parish priest.

If you believe the Queen has ordered Meghan to be baptised and confirmed before her marriage as a condition of her permission for the wedding, youíre entitled to that belief. But facts are facts and constitutionally, the Queen has absolutely no authority to determine the policy of the Church of England on the sacrament of marriage.

We can agree to disagree but I would really suggest you research the role played by the Church of England, how itís governed and what its policies are concerning this matter.
I know the Church of England backwards and forwards. Been a member all my life. Are you saying if The Queen said to Harry I will grant permission on the condition Meghan gets baptised he would say the heck with that?

Harry respects his grandmother. If thatís what she wants thatís what she gets.
  #371  
Old 12-14-2017, 04:06 PM
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And we should differentiate that Harry doesn't need the Queen's permission to marry in the first place. He can marry whomever he wants whenever he wants in whatever way he wants. And he can do so in a church as long as the officiate is ok with it. He needs her permission in order to stay in the line of succession. And if it really came down to it, I don't doubt that he would marry the person he loves if the demands can't be met.
However, the argument that is made is a condition that is rather 'easy' to meet. So, I agree that Harry would ultimately marry without permission if there was no other way but he wouldn't want to bring that upon his grandmother if not strictly necessary. So if (strong if) the queen's condition or strong suggestion/advice/expectation was for Meghan to get baptized and confirmed, it would be hard to ignore - unless Meghan would have an extremely good reason (think: conciencious objection) to go against the wishes of her new 'boss'.
  #372  
Old 12-14-2017, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
I know the Church of England backwards and forwards. Been a member all my life. Are you saying if The Queen said to Harry I will grant permission on the condition Meghan gets baptised he would say the heck with that?

Harry respects his grandmother. If thatís what she wants thatís what she gets.
You realize this isn't just between Harry and the Queen right? There is a third person here that ultimately makes the decision as it is she that have to be baptized.
  #373  
Old 12-14-2017, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
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I know the Church of England backwards and forwards. Been a member all my life. Are you saying if The Queen said to Harry I will grant permission on the condition Meghan gets baptised he would say the heck with that?



Harry respects his grandmother. If thatís what she wants thatís what she gets.

Then youíll know that Church of England celebrants often marry couples with all kinds of different backgrounds. Roman Catholic Priests donít, Orthodox Rabbis donít - Anglican priests do.

I didnít suggest the Queen had set that condition, you did. I was asking if you had any evidence to suggest that was true.
  #374  
Old 12-14-2017, 04:10 PM
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However, the argument that is made is a condition that is rather 'easy' to meet. So, I agree that Harry would ultimately marry without permission if there was no other way but he wouldn't want to bring that upon his grandmother if not strictly necessary. So if (strong if) the queen's condition or strong suggestion/advice/expectation was for Meghan to get baptized and confirmed, it would be hard to ignore - unless Meghan would have an extremely good reason (think: conciencious objection) to go against the wishes of her new 'boss'.
I only said that to point out the facts of the situation. I don't think the situation ever came down to that. My view is if Meghan has strong feelings against it, then the Queen would've still granted permission. Some are suggesting that the Queen basically use this permission to blackmail them. And honestly, at fifth in line to the throne, the likelihood of him getting to the throne is so small that he might as well turn it in.
  #375  
Old 12-14-2017, 04:14 PM
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Before the clergy can perform the wedding Harry needs The Queen’s blessing unless we’re going completely of the charts and Harry quits the Firm.

I know the clergy can perform the ceremony but unlike almost every other person Harry needs his grandmothers permission and I don’t think he would ignore The Queen’s ‘suggestion’
  #376  
Old 12-14-2017, 04:18 PM
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A priest can carry out a wedding ceremony whenever he likes, with or without the Sovereignís permission. The Queen has no right to tell a priest who he may or may not marry within his own church.

As others have said, the Queen can only withhold permission concerning Harryís place within the Royal Family and even if she had done for whatever reason, Harry and Meghan could still marry in Church if he was just plain Mr H Wales.

The Queen has nothing to do with the governance of the Church of England other than in a ceremonial role.
  #377  
Old 12-14-2017, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
Before the clergy can perform the wedding Harry needs The Queen’s blessing unless we’re going completely of the charts and Harry quits the Firm.

I know the clergy can perform the ceremony but unlike almost every other person Harry needs his grandmothers permission and I don’t think he would ignore The Queen’s ‘suggestion’
You are bundling two separate things together. The clergy performs the ceremony with or without the Queen's permission. And the Queen grants permission for marriage regardless if it's a civil or church ceremony. If Harry decides to go down to the city hall and get married, he'd still need permission or the consequences would still be the same. So in this sense, the Queen's permission has nothing to do with a church wedding. She can't grant him only the right to marry in a civil ceremony unless his bride gets baptized. She can flat out deny the marriage. But I don't see her doing that over something like this.
  #378  
Old 12-14-2017, 04:26 PM
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Never once did I mention The Queen telling clergy what they can and canít do.

Before we get to that step Harry needs his grandmothers blessing. The Queen can make any Ďsuggestionsí to Harry she wants. And Harry being Harry would obey his grandmother.
  #379  
Old 12-14-2017, 04:28 PM
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Lets remember one simple fact here. When Harry has to ask permission to marry, he's not asking his grandmother for permission. He's asking his monarch for permission to marry. The monarch has certain criteria of how to deem whether or not to give permission and that is discussed with her Privy Counsel before any permission is given. This is solely as her role as the monarch. This practice has been seen mostly as a formality in this day and age. Originally, it was put in place to guarantee that no Roman Catholic could ever get into any kind of position where they would anywhere near the throne and the Crown. The Queen's *personal* feelings do not enter into this at all when deeming whether or not to give permission to marry.

Granny's religious beliefs are her own and I do not think she would ever *force* the way she practices her beliefs or the way she would prefer someone else behave and practice as she sees it as a condition to marry. To even suggest that she would even *think* to impose conditions on one's religious or spiritual path is just totally preposterous. But that's just me.
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  #380  
Old 12-14-2017, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
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Never once did I mention The Queen telling clergy what they can and canít do.

Before we get to that step Harry needs his grandmothers blessing. The Queen can make any Ďsuggestionsí to Harry she wants. And Harry being Harry would obey his grandmother.
Again, you are forgetting there is someone else involved here. It's not Harry's decision whether or not Meghan gets baptized at the end of the day. Meghan can give her "suggestions" to Harry as much as the Queen can.
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