Meghan Markle: Citizenship and Religious Conversion

[Princess Squirrel]

Originally Posted by Somebody

I wrote my previous post before reading your excellent explanation about IRL.

However, dismissing people because they check a government website (!) instead of believing someone who says 'nowadays it is 5 years' without any explanation (initially), isn't that helpful for the discussion either.

I'm sorry, but it came across as you choosing to ignore everything I posted. That's why I was upset.

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by Princess Squirrel

I'm sorry, but it came across as you choosing to ignore everything I posted. That's why I was upset.

Understood. Although I most likely wouldn't have sent a thanks in that case

So, 5 years it is - when will she be able to apply for the first LLR? Right after getting married? Or does the 'fiancee visa period' already count towards the 5 years?

Are there other grounds for applying for the LLR (for example, work)? Otherwise it doesn't make sense that only 3 years of marriage is required to become a citizen (which is an exception to the 5 years it normally takes), while it takes 5 years to get the ILR; so, in the end, the 5 years would apply to anyone. I would imagine that the 3 year-rule is made for people who move to the UK on other grounds (such as work), probably meet a British citizen and after some years get married. In that case the foreign spouse can apply for citizenship after 3 years of marriage, if he/she also has the ILR (after at least 5 years in the UK).

[Princess Squirrel]

Yes the 3 years is a legacy from the pre-July 2012 rules. When my husband applied, we were told he could use either the 3 years spouse route (because he entered the visa system before July 2012) or the five years. He could have still naturalised had our marriage ended but would have to use the 5 years. We went ahead with the 3 year path since you have to have been physically in the UK 3/5 years before your application date, and we had already calculated that he was present here 3 years prior to the application but might not have been 5 years prior.

Yes Meghan can apply for the first LLR immediately after she marries Harry. I am not sure if the Fiancée visa counts towards the 5 years. At one time I know any legal time in the UK counted, even as a tourist, but a lot of things changed in 2012.

Incidentally, there was and is a lot of opposition to the 2012 rules. Basically they were instigated by Theresa May when Home Secretary just to be 'seen to be doing something' about reducing immigration numbers. Most immigration was due to EU citizens moving to the UK, which the government had no power to do anything about, so they decided to go after other groups like spouses. Now people on work visas had somebody to stick up for them, like large employers, universities etc. Spouses had nobody to voice opposition. There were before this about an average of 40,000 family based visas issued per year, which is really a small number since you have to also take into account that some British people also leave the UK to emigrate to their spouse's country, which offsets the 40K.

I do understand the reasons for increasing ILR to 5 years and agree with it. Before, a lot of unscrupulous young men from countries like Turkey and Tunisia (essentially non EU holiday destinations for Brits) would fool gullible older British women into marrying them. They would then leave the British woman the day they got ILR. If you read the British true life stories magazines like Take A Break, for example, there are a lot of those types of stories (the women have often been conned out of money too). Well I'm sure the same thing happens to Americans.

It was thought that increasing ILR would put these predators off. However the new financial requirements were what was most controversial. The British spouse has to be earning at least £18600 per annum (extra if also sponsoring step-children). If you aren't bringing in this amount and want to use savings, you need an incredible £62,500 savings. The big thing in this is lack of flexibility. Relatives cannot pledge to help (in the US they can sign an affidavit of support to help). All they can do is give you £62500, it has to be a gift not a loan. These rules are the second most onerous in the world for spouse visas after Denmark. It has created a lot of 'Skype families' who cannot be together in the UK, made a lot of Brits exiles from their own country, as they have had to move to their spouse's country. And a lot are trapped outside the UK and cannot move back.

Anyway that's largely OT, but it's kind of relevant in that the whole Harry & Meghan saga has re-publicised the situation these families have found themselves in. The financials are of course no problem for our royal couple.

[Curbside]

Interesting discussion. It used to be that Americans could not take on the nationality of another country without renouncing their American citizenship. Those rules have changed, so now there is officially dual citizenship for Americans.

American expats living in other countries can be taxed, but it's usually on a portion of earned income only, anything over $100K).

Will Meghan have an official paying job after she marries? If not, more than likely she'll be taxed on her own investment income, usually at a much different rate than earned income. Also, as a 1 percenter, she'll have access to all sorts of tax shelters the hoi polloi cannot access.

If she winds up paying taxes in the UK, she'll be able to deduct some of those taxes from her US tax return.

[Somebody]

My impression is that the main problem is that Meghan (and children) would be required to give insight in her (and thus the BRF's - as she will be a member) finances to the US government, more so than the issue of having to pay some US taxes - although I am sure some also protest that aspect..

[Curbside]

Originally Posted by Somebody

My impression is that the main problem is that Meghan (and children) would be required to give insight in her (and thus the BRF's - as she will be a member) finances to the US government, more so than the issue of having to pay some US taxes - although I am sure some also protest that aspect..

Why would that be the case? And why would it be a problem?

[cepe]

From what I have read about this - the fear mentioned when this was first raised is that someone in the US would leak the information. I don't know the rules for the US and, yes I am guilty of repeating speculation.

Harry, as with all members of the BRF, pays taxes. No information has ever been leaked as to actual numbers.

I don't see why US tax officials would be less confidential than those in the UK.

Meghan will not be paid a salary and the only liability she has will be tax on her investments.

[Osipi]

Wouldn't the logical way to avoid filing information on a US IRS tax form that relates to Harry's income or anything related to the British royal family income be solved simply by filing "Married filing separately"?

[Rudolph]

Has Meghan stated why she’s keeping her American citizenship

[Somebody]

Meghan will also be part of the royal family, so at least that part will be revealed, next to the finances of any children that they may have while Meghan is an American citizen (trust funds in their names have been mentioned as a reason while there might be a reason to file while they are still minors).

I am not sure that leakage is the only concern. Isn't the fact that a foreign power requires (not just has but obligates) financial disclosure from the head of state's family also part of the problem (problably more by principal than practically?).

Originally Posted by Rudolph

Has Meghan stated why she’s keeping her American citizenship

Meghan hasn't spoken about the issue but it seems that during a press briefing it has been explained that she will remain a US citizen at least until she obtains British nationality. No decision has been made whether she will keep it for life or that dual citizenship is a temporary solution (which she will only obtain after about 5 years of marriage/living in the UK).

So, unless they expediate her process, she doesn't have the option to renounce her US citizenship as she cannot be stateless.

[Curbside]

We can't even see Donald Trump's tax returns, and every journalist in the US worth his/her salt would dearly love to see them! When you use your tax returns to finance a real estate purchase, for example, you have to fill out a form authorizing the lender to request them from the IRS.

[jacqui24]

Taxes is a pain, but I imagine they can handle it. The difficulty for a lot of expat the the pain in the behind FBAR disclosure on top of the tax returns. And of course, she can be audited at any point. There are unchartered territory in US tax laws regard what can be and cannot be considered as earned income. Especially given that they have rent free housing. And no, it wouldn’t be as simple as married filing separately as Meghan also lives in the rent free housing on top of other joint properties. The FBAR penalties can be hefty, so IRS do audit these as well. And there are other disclosure for gifts from foreign nationals over a certain amount. I wouldn’t worry about it leaking to the public. However, i know there has been concerns about the fact that royal family finances can be accessible to foreign government.

And based on clarification after the initial conflicting twitter reports from those at the BP briefing, there has been no announcement whether Meghan will be dual citizen once she becomes a British citizen. They have said there has been no decision on that yet. However, she will remain a US citizen as she goes through the immigration process. Which I thought was kind of a no brained as she can’t be without a nationality.

And it does also calls into question about a person who is not a British citizen representing the Monarch both in U.K. and abroad.

[Rudolph]

Will their children be American as well as British?

[cepe]

To Jacqui24 Re your last point, I don't think that the majority of the UK will be worried about that as long as the process has started.

[Curbside]

As long as they haven't inherited their housing, I don't see why it would be taxed. Do they tax living expenses like rent as income in the UK? I've never heard of such a thing here.

If Meghan retains her American citizenship, her children would have the ability to claim US citizenship. We have pretty liberal citizenship laws here.

[Princess Squirrel]

Originally Posted by Rudolph

Will their children be American as well as British?

Yes, and they cannot travel to the US on their British passport, so they'll have to apply for their US passports. The US Embassy insist on both parents appearing in person with their children to apply for the passports. They can renounce at 18 if they wish, but their parents cannot renounce for them while they are still minors. Understandably that has to be their decision.

[Curbside]

Originally Posted by Princess Squirrel

Yes, and they cannot travel to the US on their British passport, so they'll have to apply for their US passports. The US Embassy insist on both parents appearing in person with their children to apply for the passports. They can renounce at 18 if they wish, but their parents cannot renounce for them while they are still minors. Understandably that has to be their decision.

If this is the case, since Meghan will presumably start having kids before she gets her UK citizenship (at 36, she need to get going with the baby making), her kids would be born with dual citizenship.

[Princess Squirrel]

It's funny to think that some people marvel at the thought of dual citizenship when it is perfectly possible to have about 5 citizenships!

If you were born in Northern Ireland to one French and one American parent who has ILR, you would be born with UK, Irish, French and US. If later in life you married a New Zealander and moved there, you could get Kiwi citizenship. Kiwis can legally move to Oz, so you could then get Australian citizenship. None of these 6 countries disallow dual citizenship!!

[jacqui24]

Originally Posted by Rudolph

Will their children be American as well as British?

Yes. So then, you’ll have children who are in line to the British throne that are born as US citizens as well. Granted, they wouldn’t be close to the throne barring some catastrophe. However, once Charles takes over, unless Cambridges have baby #4, you’ll have someone that’s deemed important enough to need the monarch’s permission to marry being also a US citizen. There were all kinds of jokes about how someone in line for the throne could one day be US president.

[Rudolph]

Has Meghan been baptised and confirmed yet?