Meghan Markle: Citizenship and Religious Conversion

[FashionMaven]

Originally Posted by jacqui24

THIS. I know some people joked online that if people didn't know, they'd think Meghan is the royal. They intend to compliment Meghan, but honestly my take on it is Harry is comfortable letting his wife to be be herself and take the lead as she is comfortable. But if she ever stumble, not that there is any indication she is incapable of handling herself, he'd be there to back her up. That to me is the essence of a confident man. He's secure enough about himself to letting the woman he loves shine.

I love their whole dynamic. #coupleGoals

[Princess Squirrel]

Hi, wasn't sure where to put this so I started a new thread. Please could it be moved if mods think it belongs elsewhere.
There have been a number of factual errors reported in the press about Meghan and UK immigration facts. As is often the case, journalists are not doing proper research. I wanted to try to correct some of those erroneous facts in this thread.
We do not know if Meghan is currently on a Fiancé visa or has just been stamped as a visitor for six months. It's also a fact that the Home Office have said they 'can't comment on individual cases' so we're unlikely to ever find out if Meghan's application will be fast-tracked because of who she's marrying.
I have read some definitely wrong information about future immigration dealings however. Like that Meghan will have to take the 'Life in the UK' test before she applies for citizenship. Wrong. It has been the case for a few years that she will need to pass the test to get Indefinite Leave, so she'll already have passed before any citizenship application is lodged. Also I have read the false fact that you have to wait four weeks for the result of your test. Again, wrong. You get the results there and then.

[Alliec76]

Originally Posted by loonytick

I was just over at the UK government website reading up on citizenship, and the regulations say things like 3 or 5 years residency is "usually" required and that the rules about time spent in the country can be waived under "special circumstances."

I suspect that marrying an HRH and the potential for future royal children to be born with dual citizenship if they don't fast track will be deemed to qualify as a "special circumstance" in which an exception is made.

The issue I see with this is that the statement they put out explicitly said she would be following the normal protocol for attaining UK citizenship. Surely the palace already knew about what that meant and what that would entail (taxes, kids etc). If they go back on what they said, and fast track her citizenship then I could see a big backlash. I think there is a backlash either way. But I think they are on firmer footing with the public if they are defending her following the law and not getting special treatment, versus having to defend back tracking on their word and fast tracking her citizenship. If they wanted the option of fast tracking her, they should have left themselves some wiggle room in their statement. Anyway, that's my take on it. It's messy either way.

Now when she does eventually become a UK citizen, she probably will give up her US citizenship. That did originally bother me, but it doesn't really anymore. It doesn't really change who she is, where she's from and how she was raised. And she has been very clear about being proud of who she is and where she is from. And financially it's just the smart move.

[American Observer7]

Meghan is giving up enough already! This, "There has been no decision made on whether Meghan will renounce her American citizenship or have dual." That is just for the media in my opinion. I am sure she and Harry have discussed this and they both agree there is no reason for to renounce her home country when it not required for her to marry him.

Why are some of you so eager to turn this girl into a Brit? She was born and raised in the United States with 6 or 7 years of that in Canada. You can't change who she is at core nor where she was born and raised.

I concur with the poster that stated, "She's not giving up her American citizenship--she plans to have dual citizenship."

If Harry wanted to or had to marry a British woman he would have done so!

[Gaudete]

I’m not quite sure what she’s giving up. She isn’t becoming a nun, she’s marrying into the British Royal Family of her own free will knowing full well what that entails. We know that her future husband has taken every possible opportunity to tell her exactly what that entails.

Her dual citizenship could cause issues further down the line for the family in terms of tax returns. She won’t be living in America anymore, she won’t be voting anymore, she won’t be employed or working in America anymore. It isn’t about wiping out her heritage or her nationality, it’s about a new way of life that comes with problems as well as opportunities.

When you marry into the Royal Family, you take on duties and responsibilities but you also accept that your first loyalty is to the British crown. Anything that impedes that or which would bring the crown into disrepute has to go. If that means she has to give up US citizenship to avoid financial scandal? Then so be it. But again I stress: Meghan knows all of this. She has accepted it and has welcomed it. If she hadn’t, she wouldn’t have said yes. It may be that her dual citizenship doesn’t cause any issues but the moment it does? It has to go.

How would the people of Denmark react if they felt Crown Princess Mary cared more for Australia than Denmark? Meghan won’t be in the same position as Mary but it’s the same rule for all of them. Crown and country first. Self second. That still means personal sacrifice and it’s the price the royals pay for their privileged position.

[American Observer7]

Originally Posted by Gaudete

I’m not quite sure what she’s giving up. She isn’t becoming a nun, she’s marrying into the British Royal Family of her own free will knowing full well what that entails. We know that her future husband has taken every possible opportunity to tell her exactly what that entails.

Her dual citizenship could cause issues further down the line for the family in terms of tax returns. She won’t be living in America anymore, she won’t be voting anymore, she won’t be employed or working in America anymore. It isn’t about wiping out her heritage or her nationality, it’s about a new way of life that comes with problems as well as opportunities.

When you marry into the Royal Family, you take on duties and responsibilities but you also accept that your first loyalty is to the British crown. Anything that impedes that or which would bring the crown into disrepute has to go. If that means she has to give up US citizenship to avoid financial scandal? Then so be it. But again I stress: Meghan knows all of this. She has accepted it and has welcomed it. If she hadn’t, she wouldn’t have said yes. It may be that her dual citizenship doesn’t cause any issues but the moment it does? It has to go.

How would the people of Denmark react if they felt Crown Princess Mary cared more for Australia than Denmark? Meghan won’t be in the same position as Mary but it’s the same rule for all of them. Crown and country first. Self second. That still means personal sacrifice and it’s the price the royals pay for their privileged position.

Wiping out her heritage is exactly the way I see this and it's wrong. The British will just have to adjust. Giving up her US citizenship is asking to much. I hope she keeps it and I bet she will.

[Gaudete]

The British don’t have to adjust to a thing. I think you’re overlooking one very important point. As much as she’s popular now and well liked, at the end of the day she owes everything she will have to the British tax payer and the British voter. Once the wedding is over, people will expect just as much from her as they do from Kate or Camilla or Sophie. She ceases to be Meghan Markle the American actress and she becomes HRH The Duchess of Wherever.

The British don’t react well to people coming in and trying to change things when they’re picking up the tab. But this is immaterial when you consider that Meghan herself will become a British subject. As part of that process, she will have no choice but to put her British nationality first in all things. After her marriage, that’s her duty. It’s non negotiable.

Nobody is asking her to cease being American. But the British will expect her to become one of them as much as she can. Furthermore, we have a right to do so.

[jacqui24]

Originally Posted by American Observer7

Meghan is giving up enough already! This, "There has been no decision made on whether Meghan will renounce her American citizenship or have dual." That is just for the media in my opinion. I am sure she and Harry have discussed this and they both agree there is no reason for to renounce her home country when it not required for her to marry him.

Why are some of you so eager to turn this girl into a Brit? She was born and raised in the United States with 6 or 7 years of that in Canada. You can't change who she is at core nor where she was born and raised.

I concur with the poster that stated, "She's not giving up her American citizenship--she plans to have dual citizenship."

If Harry wanted to or had to marry a British woman he would have done so!

Actually, complicated and burdensome tax returns and financial disclosures are a VERY good reason. In fact, that's top reason why expats turn in their US passports. I know how much of a pain it is because I was an accountant and had clients that were overseas.

Meghan isn't defined by her citizenship. She is her own person. And she will continue to be the person that she is regardless if she is UK citizen or US citizen. But I can guarantee that Meghan knows what her responsibilities are in this new role. I agree with those that said if it becomes an issue, she would renounce it even if not for the tax reason. Just look at her outfit for the first public appearance. All the labels she wore were very strategic. She was sure to include Canada, Britain, and Scotland even. It's also very clear Meghan is committed not only to the man, but the institution as well with every decision that's been announced since the engagement. And honestly, I'm pretty sure Meghan has thought about this as well. If she had problems with this, she'd walked away a long time ago. She's not marrying random guy from Britain, she's marrying a family that's the epitome of British culture.

[Gaudete]

As this topic takes in a change of religion too, perhaps this would be the best analogy.

If I am born Jewish but I choose to become a Roman Catholic, there will be significant changes to my lifestyle. Things may be expected of me now which were not expected before. I may retain my heritage and links to certain traditions and customs but I adopt and embrace new ones because that is the choice I have made.

Would that be a difficult adjustment? Yes. Would I sometimes find myself torn between two identities? Yes. But the fact remains that I made a decision to embrace a different way of life. For want of a better word, a different culture.

Meghan is required to do the same. By accepting the Prince’s proposal, she entered into something far greater than an ordinary marriage. She will never lose her heritage and she may keep certain American customs and traditions alive. I hope she does. I’m sure she will want to. But in saying yes to Harry, she also said yes to something else. Lord Mountbatten often said that when a royal bride makes her vows, she’s making them first to her husband but also to her new country. She enters into an agreement with the British people.

She will work for us, represent us, support the Sovereign etc and in return, she gets a lifestyle very few people could ever hope to enjoy. That only continues for as long as she puts her duty first. Why do you think the Duchess of York isn’t living off the tax payer dime anymore?

I think Meghan knows all of this but the idea that she will remain a proud outspoken American patriot is a little naive. It just isn’t practical. She’ll always have her ties to the States but once that ring is on her finger and once she becomes a British subject, that’s it. She’ll have to toe the line as much as any member of the Royal Family.

[Princess Squirrel]

Just to correct one more thing that's being repeated. Unless given special treatment, Meghan has to wait 5 years to get citizenship, not 3. The 3 years for those married to UK citizens was only for people who come under the pre-July 2012 rules. All applicants who enter the visa system after then come under different rules whereby there is no quick route to naturalisation for being married to a Briton. It's 5 years to Indefinite Leave, same as those on a work visa. The difference is then that once you have ILR, if married to a Brit, you can then apply for naturalisation the next day. On a work visa you need to have ILR for a year.

So it's going to be 5 years minimum unless Meghan gets fast-tracked as a special case. It sounds as if that is the plan. They will have had a good UK immigration lawyer advising them (as well as US tax lawyers). I think this is why it was stated that she will 'retain her US citizenship through the process' because the US would not allow her to be stateless.

It's British Citizen not British Subject. The subject thing ended in the 1940s.

[Gaudete]

On paper perhaps. But I’m not a British citizen. I’m a British subject. :wink:

[texankitcat]

Originally Posted by Gaudete

The British don’t have to adjust to a thing. I think you’re overlooking one very important point. As much as she’s popular now and well liked, at the end of the day she owes everything she will have to the British tax payer and the British voter. Once the wedding is over, people will expect just as much from her as they do from Kate or Camilla or Sophie. She ceases to be Meghan Markle the American actress and she becomes HRH The Duchess of Wherever.

The British don’t react well to people coming in and trying to change things when they’re picking up the tab. But this is immaterial when you consider that Meghan herself will become a British subject. As part of that process, she will have no choice but to put her British nationality first in all things. After her marriage, that’s her duty. It’s non negotiable.

Nobody is asking her to cease being American. But the British will expect her to become one of them as much as she can. Furthermore, we have a right to do so.

Very well stated and exactly the way it should be. The Royal Family is continuously being scrutinized for every pound they cost the British taxpayers. They won’t be giving Meghan a pass because she is American. If anything they will expect more from her.

If I was a British citizen I would expect the same.

[jacqui24]

Ok, I have a question for the Brits on the board.

Let's forget this is about Meghan Markle or whether or not you like her. Would you have had an issue with them fast tracking her UK citizenship if she renounces her US citizenship right away? As it stands, the BRF will have a working HRH that will represent the monarch, domestically and abroad, that is not a British citizen. In the likely case they have children in the next 5 years, the Brits will have HRHs that will be UK and US citizen subject to US tax laws in line to the throne. It's unlikely that they will inherit the throne, but will be living in the palace, which is owned by the British people. This won't go away until they are 18 if they decide to renounce then.

[Gaudete]

Personally speaking, I wouldn’t have an issue with a fast tracked citizenship but I respect the fact that she wants to do things by the book. I think it shows great commitment but in her particular case, I don’t really see that it’s necessary given the extraordinary situation Meghan will be in.

[Princess Squirrel]

Originally Posted by jacqui24

Ok, I have a question for the Brits on the board.

Let's forget this is about Meghan Markle or whether or not you like her. Would you have had an issue with them fast tracking her UK citizenship if she renounces her US citizenship right away? As it stands, the BRF will have a working HRH that will represent the monarch, domestically and abroad, that is not a British citizen. In the likely case they have children in the next 5 years, the Brits will have HRHs that will be UK and US citizen subject to US tax laws in line to the throne. It's unlikely that they will inherit the throne, but will be living in the palace, which is owned by the British people. This won't go away until they are 18.

Apparently Princess Grace did not renounce before she had Prince Albert. He had to renounce at 21. The problem is easily solved by giving the children only pocket money until Meghan can renounce. I am sure any trust funds could wait until the children are 3 or 4, they couldn't possibly be any older before she can renounce. So I don't see the fast-tracking being necessary.

[MaiaMia_53]

I think we need to keep in mind too that Meghan and Harry are marrying for love, and because they want to build a life together. Because of who Harry is, they will be building that life together in Great Britain.

It's also true that Meghan is smart and fully aware of everything that is entailed in becoming Prince Harry's wife. She's had a lot of time to learn behind-the-scenes from Harry and from his staff, mentor and trusted advisors. Meghan has had a crash course regarding royal life and protocol. She's surely been made aware of certain things that none of us will ever know. She's now on the inside of an ancient and high profile royal institution, which carries tremendous burdens and responsibilities, along with the lifestyle perks (that can be seen as wonderful in some ways as well as inconvenient in other ways).

Meghan is not in it for the perks. She was successful in her own right, and she could have done anything with her life. I'm quite sure that on the surface, there's a very tempting, attractive side to the lifestyle of a royal. But, as Meghan said in the joint interview, although she knew that Harry is a Prince of the U.K., the main thing she wanted to know before agreeing to meet with him: 'Is he nice?' It's Harry's character and who he is inside that Meghan wanted to know about. She was neither fazed or struck dumb, nor overly impressed by his princely status.

IOW, if Meghan and Harry were not truly in love and committed to the same devotion of giving back to others and doing good in the world, marrying into this revered but antiquated institution would not be worth it IMHO. But I believe Meghan deeply loves Harry, and she's very courageous, daring and committed to taking on the ups-and-downs of everything that comes with marrying Harry and becoming part of the 'royal firm.'

Meghan has previously said how much she loves a challenge, and how she truly enjoys 'exceeding expectations.' I believe she's already exceeded some people's expectations! Meghan brings a great deal of sass, class, savvy, generosity, emotional strength, and charisma to the royal family. In these uncertain times in this new millennium, the royal family is looking to stay abreast of and in tune with the British people, the Commonwealth and global transitions. As Camilla said humorously, but also truthfully: "America's loss is Great Britain's gain."

There's no point in making comparisons with Fergie. There really is no comparision. Meghan is far and away a completely different person, with different interests, aspirations, and devotions.

[jacqui24]

Originally Posted by Princess Squirrel

Apparently Princess Grace did not renounce before she had Prince Albert. He had to renounce at 21. The problem is easily solved by giving the children only pocket money until Meghan can renounce. I am sure any trust funds could wait until the children are 3 or 4, they couldn't possibly be any older before she can renounce. So I don't see the fast-tracking being necessary.

Their US citizenship won't go away when she renounces. She can only renounce her own. They would have to wait until they are of age to renounce themselves.
I think, to me, that would've been the stickier issue. The rest they can suck up and deal with for 5 years, but it's really the children's citizenship issue.

[Princess Squirrel]

Sorry I realise I screwed up. Pocket money only until they are 18.

[Gaudete]

Don’t misunderstand me, I wasn’t trying to compare the two. I was simply using Sarah as an example of what happens when the British don’t like the way things are going. Decades ago, we would have kept a deferential silence when members of the Royal Family stepped out of line. Today however, the scrutiny is far greater and the consequences far more immediate. The OP suggested that the British would have to adjust, as I think most of us can agree, it doesn’t work that way.

[Princess Squirrel]

Or the US Government could do the decent thing and change the tax law to one based on domicile, like every other country except them and Eritrea (and they had the hypocracy to complain about Eritrea doing it).