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  #1101  
Old 12-21-2017, 06:00 AM
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I understand that MANY Feminists, and Women who wouldn't label themselves as such see 'who giveth this Woman' etc, etc as an offensive left over of Patriarchy, but personally I see it as giving 'Dad' a role above and beyond just paying for it ! Fathers have a very special bond with their daughters, and deserve to have the ending of one phase of that relationship marked at their daughters Wedding.
ALL Fathers, and most daughters find it a significant and emotional moment.
The 'mother of the Bride' is [generally] intimately involved in the planning/dress/flowers/food/guest list, in a way Fathers just aren't, so it seems to me only right their role in the upbringing of their daughter SHOULD be properly recognised..
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  #1102  
Old 12-21-2017, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evolvingdoors View Post
It is traditional in the Jewish religion that the groom parents walk him to the chupah while the bride parents walk her (after the groom is already under it), in some streams within Judaism the mothers will walk the bride while the fathers walk the groom.
But even that is slowly dying as more Jews are become less religious.
Some couples have been entering together, some apart, some walk alone without the parents. It depends on the couple and the nature of the wedding.

Honestly, given that Harry asked her parents permission, which I personally find to be as outdated as obey and giving the bride away (no matter how you name it, it’s one man handing a woman to another man), and would be furious if any man I dated did such a thing. I found it even more odd considering what a huge feminist Meghan is, and well she’s not a child but a grown woman, it’s demeaning and disrespectful- in my personal opinion- to a grown up independent woman as Meghan is.


Isn't the point of being a feminist being able to decide these things for yourself WITHOUT censure and/or being told you can't do that because of X? Who are you to say what is or isn't demeaning and disrespectful to her?

Evidently she doesn't find what Harry did in any way a threat to her personal views. Ergo that should be good enough for the rest of us.


LaRae
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  #1103  
Old 12-21-2017, 07:37 AM
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I would like to think that Harry being raised in the royal family is doing what gentlemen do when they want to get married, I bet he is following the path of what is traditional and respectful to Meghan and her family. And in knowing how these 2 really are in tune with each other, I bet they have talked this over on now things are going to proceed in the future. In seeing the pictures of their engagement now, Meghan seems to enjoy the courtship of being wooed by Harry. Even in modern times it is a wonderful sense of comfort and joy in following family or country traditions which have survived through time. Harry is a gentleman now, not a teenager or club happy kid, he is grown and mature and knows just what he is doing and wants in life.....Meghan will have the pleasure of enjoying all that coming from him I am sure.
  #1104  
Old 12-21-2017, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evolvingdoors View Post
It is traditional in the Jewish religion that the groom parents walk him to the chupah while the bride parents walk her (after the groom is already under it), in some streams within Judaism the mothers will walk the bride while the fathers walk the groom.
But even that is slowly dying as more Jews are become less religious.
Some couples have been entering together, some apart, some walk alone without the parents. It depends on the couple and the nature of the wedding.

Honestly, given that Harry asked her parents permission, which I personally find to be as outdated as obey and giving the bride away (no matter how you name it, it’s one man handing a woman to another man), and would be furious if any man I dated did such a thing. I found it even more odd considering what a huge feminist Meghan is, and well she’s not a child but a grown woman, it’s demeaning and disrespectful- in my personal opinion- to a grown up independent woman as Meghan is.
Woah. How did we equate feminist to asking your parents’ permission to be offensive? Feminism is about having the ability to make your own choices, which she obviously did here, and not about silly things like that. It doesn’t mean the man can’t be a gentleman here.
  #1105  
Old 12-21-2017, 08:28 AM
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well it does imply that Meghan is not an independent woman but her father's possession and that her father has to give consent to her marrirage and indeed to hand her over to her husband...
  #1106  
Old 12-21-2017, 09:55 AM
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I think asking "permission" is generally done after the couple has already made the decision to marry. My husband asked my dad "permission" after we'd already announced our engagement. I'm pretty sure my dad used the occasion to put the fear of dire retribution should my husband not do right by me.
  #1107  
Old 12-21-2017, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
well it does imply that Meghan is not an independent woman but her father's possession and that her father has to give consent to her marrirage and indeed to hand her over to her husband...
Actually, no it doesn't. I'm sure she still can make her own choice if, for some odd reason, her father wouldn't give permission. But it's a nice way for the couple to include her parents in this. I highly doubt Harry traded land or animals for her.

Actually, if I look at the announcement again, it says he asked for their blessing rather than their permission. Does that make it better? That Harry wanted their blessing rather than somehow insinuating Meghan is their property?
  #1108  
Old 12-21-2017, 10:00 AM
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I believe the words “in my personal opinion” are written twice! In my post, hence that means it is MY personal opinion.

As to why it’s offensive, Denville provided a good answer.

Such customes have a deep rooted patriarcal reasons, they were (and in some places still are) a way for men to control women. We cry for lack of equality, but we continue to support customes which are by design meant to suppress women.

As I said, this is simply my personal opinion based on my own readings about the treatment of women through out history and in modern time.

So why doesn’t the woman also asks the groom parents permission?
As long as we’re calling it “asking permission” and not “announcing/sharing the engagement news” the gesture carries all the weight of its historical reasons.

And i’ll stop since I feel like we’re moving off topic.
  #1109  
Old 12-21-2017, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evolvingdoors View Post
I believe the words “in my personal opinion” are written twice! In my post, hence that means it is MY personal opinion.

As to why it’s offensive, Denville provided a good answer.

Such customes have a deep rooted patriarcal reasons, they were (and in some places still are) a way for men to control women. We cry for lack of equality, but we continue to support customes which are by design meant to suppress women.

As I said, this is simply my personal opinion based on my own readings about the treatment of women through out history and in modern time.

So why doesn’t the woman also asks the groom parents permission?
As long as we’re calling it “asking permission” and not “announcing/sharing the engagement news” the gesture carries all the weight of its historical reasons.

And i’ll stop since I feel like we’re moving off topic.
As mentioned in my previous post, going back to the engagement announcement, it says blessing rather than permission. And he did ask both of her parents, instead of just her dad. Do these facts make this better? Or is a guy about to propose wanting the blessing of his future in laws too much too?
  #1110  
Old 12-21-2017, 10:14 AM
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Traditions are a wonderful thing when it comes to a wedding but there are some traditions that are thankfully long done away with. Back in medieval times, it wasn't unusual for the Lord and Master of the area to claim "First Night" at a wedding of couples on his estate. After the wedding ceremony, it would be him that bedded the bride first. Now that is treating a bride as a possession.

I don't think its a strike against feminism at all to ask dad (and mom) for permission to marry their daughter. Its a courtesy and in a way, asking acceptance to become a member of their family. Harry, we know, asked his grandmother, as monarch, for permission to marry and I wouldn't be surprised if he consulted his father and brother when he was contemplating proposing marriage. Those family members that are close to the two people that are contemplating marriage would be in the loop and know how things stand long before anything "official" happens.

Although there are different options that could be taken. I would lay my bet of my last bowl of cranberry sauce that it will be Mr. Tom Markle escorting his daughter up the aisle in May.
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  #1111  
Old 12-21-2017, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curbside View Post
I think asking "permission" is generally done after the couple has already made the decision to marry. My husband asked my dad "permission" after we'd already announced our engagement. I'm pretty sure my dad used the occasion to put the fear of dire retribution should my husband not do right by me.
I think this is closer to the truth of the situation. I really doubt Harry actually asked Tom and Doria for their "permission" to marry Meghan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jacqui24 View Post

Actually, if I look at the announcement again, it says he asked for their blessing rather than their permission. Does that make it better? That Harry wanted their blessing rather than somehow insinuating Meghan is their property?
I'm sure some people still find a problem with that but to me it seems courteous, especially since marrying Harry changes Meghan's life (and by extension theirs) exponentially.
  #1112  
Old 12-21-2017, 10:36 AM
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I think to ask parent for permission has nothing wrong, marriage is about two families (I would say it is to ask for blessing and support rather than actual permission, or a permission for him to be their newly son-in-law). It has nothing to do with feminism.
  #1113  
Old 12-21-2017, 01:25 PM
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Harry asking the Queen is because he is legally obligied to, marrying Meghan (or any one) without it would cost him a lot.

My main issue with premmision or blessing is still that it was “sought” (meaning asked) rather than announced to them. It’s the wording of the act that bothers me.
It bothers me because there is no mention of Meghan seeking Charles or the queen blessing or permission to marry him - queen permission needed due to succession law not withstanding.
I’m sure t could have been a better way to word it, a more “with the times” way.

Again, that is simply my personal opinion.
  #1114  
Old 12-21-2017, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evolvingdoors View Post
Harry asking the Queen is because he is legally obligied to, marrying Meghan (or any one) without it would cost him a lot.

My main issue with premmision or blessing is still that it was “sought” (meaning asked) rather than announced to them. It’s the wording of the act that bothers me.
It bothers me because there is no mention of Meghan seeking Charles or the queen blessing or permission to marry him - queen permission needed due to succession law not withstanding.
I’m sure t could have been a better way to word it, a more “with the times” way.

Again, that is simply my personal opinion.
Each couple who marries can do it in their own way, and it shouldn’t “bother” others, who are also free to do it in their own way.
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  #1115  
Old 12-21-2017, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Traditions are a wonderful thing when it comes to a wedding but there are some traditions that are thankfully long done away with. Back in medieval times, it wasn't unusual for the Lord and Master of the area to claim "First Night" at a wedding of couples on his estate. After the wedding ceremony, it would be him that bedded the bride first. Now that is treating a bride as a possession.

I don't think its a strike against feminism at all to ask dad (and mom) for permission to marry their daughter. Its a courtesy and in a way, asking acceptance to become a member of their family. Harry, we know, asked his grandmother, as monarch, for permission to marry and I wouldn't be surprised if he consulted his father and brother when he was contemplating proposing marriage. Those family members that are close to the two people that are contemplating marriage would be in the loop and know how things stand long before anything "official" happens.

Although there are different options that could be taken. I would lay my bet of my last bowl of cranberry sauce that it will be Mr. Tom Markle escorting his daughter up the aisle in May.
The 'Doit de Segneur' is a totally made up thing. Contrary to it 'not being unusual,' there's no evidence of it ever happening. Not in Europe anyway. It might sell historical romances, but it isn't true any more than medieval Scots wearing kilts.
  #1116  
Old 12-21-2017, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaira View Post
Mother and father walking a bride down the aisle is becoming increasingly more common in the US. I absolutely love it and I would be thrilled to bits if Meghan did that.
Would both parents be allowed to do this? Or is there a strict rule in the Church of England stipulating that only the father may walk the bride down the aisle?
  #1117  
Old 12-21-2017, 03:16 PM
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Ooops and here I was thinking that the "first night" thing was an actual historic fact. Thanks for setting me straight on that. I do have to agree with you also about kilt wearing in Scotland in medieval times. The item of clothing we know as the kilt was first designed in 1720. Then out they went. The Dress Act 1746 was part of the Act of Proscription which came into force on 1 August 1746 and made wearing "the Highland Dress" including tartan or a kilt illegal in Scotland as well as reiterating the Disarming Act. (checks off her learn something new everyday box for the day).

Its interesting how as time passes, things become romanticized, exaggerated, mythical and legendary. Some continue on down through the ages in different forms and some are totally obliterated. I think with the last part of the 20th century and into the 21st century, this is happening with marriage ceremonies. The "obey" is definitely distasteful and "permission" reeks of ownership and we're at the point now where its a couple's decision on how they go about doing things.

One of the most newest way of doing things I've seen was with a bridal couple who decided that in stating their vows, it was changed from "until death do us part" to a pragmatic "as long as we both shall choose". Different strokes for different folks I guess.
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  #1118  
Old 12-21-2017, 03:20 PM
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I hope Harry gets rid of the beard for the wedding. Just my opinion but I prefer my men clean-shaven. (Hubby grows a beard sometimes but he never leaves it more than a couple of months because he knows I prefer him without).

I guess because my dad had a beard, I don't associate it as being fanciable in a man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
Would both parents be allowed to do this? Or is there a strict rule in the Church of England stipulating that only the father may walk the bride down the aisle?
Good grief the CofE has no such stipulation, and they can walk down together as a couple if they want. The Church of England is really not that severe.
  #1119  
Old 12-21-2017, 03:24 PM
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Ugh...if a guy wanted to say 'as long as we both shall choose' instead of 'death do us part' I wouldn't marry him!


LaRae
  #1120  
Old 12-21-2017, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Princess Squirrel View Post
I hope Harry gets rid of the beard for the wedding. Just my opinion but I prefer my men clean-shaven. (Hubby grows a beard sometimes but he never leaves it more than a couple of months because he knows I prefer him without).

I guess because my dad had a beard, I don't associate it as being fanciable in a man.
Meghan hasn't known him without his beard--I hope he wouldn't shave it right before the wedding
If that's what he might want to do, he should do it soon, so there is time to grow it back if need be...
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