Harry and Meghan: Relationship Musings

[loonytick]

Let's put it another way, would Americans be happy to have a first lady who has never lived or worked in the US? Melania Trump is certainly not to my taste but at least she lived & worked in the US for a number of years prior to when her husband became president.

That's a strange example. First Ladies, for the most part, have been married to their spouse for years before becoming First Lady, and you don't win the Presidency without having been in the nation to first build a reputation and connections and then campaign for at least a year or two. But if an unmarried person were to become
President and then marry a foreigner while in office, I don't think the fact that the new spouse was not American would be the surprising or uncomfortable thing. I think people would mostly just be taken aback to find that the President had carved out enough free time to conduct an international romance. We don't really have many expectations for a First Lady, but we do seem to expect the President to be a workaholic.

If you look at some of the other foreign spouses of other royal houses like Princess Mary, she lived in Denmark for a year or so before an engagement was announced.

Mary did, but Alexandra and Marie didn't move to Denmark until their engagements were announced. It's a nice step for a couple to be able to make if the girlfriend's job can be transferred to the country (giving not only an income but a reason for the visa in the time until the engagement becomes official), but it's not always possible. Until fairly recently, royal brides rarely came from the nation they would come to represent and weren't expected to be in that nation until it was time for their wedding.

Being neither British nor a resident of the UK, I'm certainly in no position to take the temperature of the public and how Brexit might color opinion of a foreign royal fiancee. I will say that it seems beyond illogical to me to simultaneously (a) embrace the concept of monarchy/royalty and (b) essentially expect to have anyone marrying into a royal family be the perfect choice for the public from day one. Either you buy into the idea that a family--which is made up of people and marriages that have to work on a personal level in order to work at all--play this role in your nation or you use only with appointed/elected/hired staff to do the job of representing you. If the model is monarchy, then sometimes the public is just going to have to sometimes make its peace with letting people grow into the job rather than be ready for it the moment they become a part of the family. And when it comes to spouses, that sometimes means going ahead and assigning RPO's, providing housing, etc. for British citizens who have never dealt with the public and won't be immediately ready for a full schedule of walkabouts or speech-making and sometimes it will mean providing those resources for foreigners who haven't established themselves as British.

If a member of the royal family (Harry) is ready to get married to that person (Meghan) and the Queen is ok with it then it's time for it to happen, whether Joe Q. Public likes it or not. That's just part of what you get when with a monarchy.

 

[Queen E]

I'm not seeing how a few months change the optics. Look, Meghan is American. Even when she eventually applies for British citizenship, she's still American. The people who have a problem with that are always going to have a problem with that. A few months won't change that. Legally Harry is allowed to marry a foreigner and his fiancee is entitled to RPO protection just like Kate and anyone else. I'm not aware of any clauses that create an acception for foreign born brides.

So she moves to the UK, not engaged, and does what? You want to talk about bad optics? I can see it now. "Desperate Meghan Markle, gives up her career to move to London to pressure Harry to propose!" She wouldn't be able to work or even do any charity work (accept the charity work she already has one her own) because anything she does will be seen as her trying to audition for the part of princess.

The situation is what it is, and Meghan is who she is. 3-6 months living in the UK, with no engagement and no real job will not change that.

Harry or any other members of the royals are free to marry who they want. The royals have a history of marrying foreigners so this is nothing new or unique.

However my point is that someone marrying into the royal family should have at least lived or worked in the country that they will be representing for some period. This has been the case for most foreign spouses. Why should Meghan be any different?

 

[O-H Anglophile]

Who said anything about Meghan receiving taxpayers money as a private citizen? Of course she won't be entitled to taxpayers money as a private citizen.

What I said was why I think an engagement announcement should be delayed. Hypothetically if H&M get engaged next week she would automatically be entitled to funding by the British taxpayers from next week, this includes RPOs & other expenses that comes with royal life. Due to the fact that she has never lived in the UK I think this would make bad optics. Best thing will be to have her live as a private citizen in the UK for a few months where she funds herself.

Why? This was never the case with foreign royal brides in the past. The simple fact of someone giving up their whole life and moving to another country should say enough.

 

[Queen E]

Why? This was never the case with foreign royal brides in the past. The simple fact of someone giving up their whole life and moving to another country should say enough.

Most recent foreign spouses that I can think of have lived for a period in their adoptive country, Prince Philip, Princess Mary of Denmark, Autumn Philips.

Perhaps a century ago this wouldn't matter but attitudes have changed concerning royals & what is expected.

 

[Osipi]

Lets face it. When it comes to Harry or anyone marrying in the British Royal Family, Joe Q. Public and what he thinks doesn't matter whatsoever. Although with Harry's marriage, his wife will be expected to work side by side with Harry and the "Firm", it is first and foremost a personal relationship and what the public thinks doesn't really amount to a hill of beans or call any of the shots on how they do things.

We'll just basically have to be happy with whatever they decide they want to do and if their wedding is to be televised so that we all can be a part of it, we'll be given the privilege of being included. We can't ask for anything more than that.

 

[Alliec76]

Why? This was never the case with foreign royal brides in the past. The simple fact of someone giving up their whole life and moving to another country should say enough.

Exactly. It's like Meghan has to jump through hoops because she has the audacity to not be British. And if we are being really honest, it still won't be enough for some.

Just because some other bride may have done something, does not mean it is the only, correct way. Why should Meghan be any different? How about because she is different. Every relationship and circumstance is unique.

The fact is she wouldn't be able to work in the UK. Any job she got would be scrutinized and picked apart. And even if she did get some job, she would still be working there as an American. On a work visa. So how is that working for her new country? What exactly would she be proving since as "just a girlfriend" she'd have to mostly be out of sight anyway.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

Most recent foreign spouses that I can think of have lived for a period in their adoptive country, Prince Philip, Princess Mary of Denmark, Autumn Philips.

Perhaps a century ago this wouldn't matter but attitudes have changed concerning royals & what is expected.

Philip is not exactly a recent example (70 years married!), he went to school in the U.K. as a teen and was in the British military during WWII. Elizabeth didn't meet him overseas, he didn't move to the U.K. because of his engagement or marriage.
Autumn is a private citizen, married to a private citizen.
And if you are bringing Mary into this, then as pointed out upthread neither of Joachim's wives moved to Denmark prior to their engagements.

 

[loonytick]

Most recent foreign spouses that I can think of have lived for a period in their adoptive country, Prince Philip, Princess Mary of Denmark, Autumn Philips.

Perhaps a century ago this wouldn't matter but attitudes have changed concerning royals & what is expected.

No, actually, most haven't.

Philip doesn't really count, as he'd lived in the UK long before even meeting Elizabeth, so their relationship did not in any way play into his need to live there.

Mary lived in Denmark for a while first. I believe Maxima did the same in the Netherlands (although she'd been working nearby in Belgium--I can't find the date when she moved to be sure). Queen Silvia lived in Stockholm on and off for a couple of years before her engagement was announced.

However, the list of foreign royal spouses of living memory who did not move to their new home country until after the engagement was announced (or, in some cases, not until the wedding) is much longer:

Alexandra (moved from Hong Kong to Denmark)
Marie (France to Denmark)
Grace (US to Monaco)
Anne-Marie (Denmark to Greece)
Sofia (Greece to Spain)
Paola (Italy to Belgium)
Fabiola (Spain to Belgium)
Maria Teresa (she's Cuban, but the move was Geneva to Luxembourg)
Henrik (France to Denmark)

And then, of course, there's Chris O'Neill who didn't move to Sweden at all and opted not to be made royal despite his marriage to a princess.

Which, for me, raises the question: is there any possibility within British custom/the standards set by the currently applicable letters patent for a scenario in which Meghan marries Harry without becoming a princess (with the duties thereof)? We're all assuming that she'll do the same as every other woman who has thus far married a British prince and take on the titles and responsibilities that have traditionally come with the wedding ring, but in recent generations we've seen the BRF move slightly away from the model that all princesses marry men with titles, all sons of the monarch be made dukes upon marriage, and all grandchildren eligible for HRH to actually use it. Could it be possible for the wife of a prince to not truly be royal?

Let me clarify, I don't think that's likely. I'm wondering if it's possible. I'm just engaging in a thought experiment, not anything in the neighborhood of a prediction.

 

[Queen E]

The mood in Britain has undoubtedly changed & the royals are expected to be more accountable and are now being held up to greater scrutiny.

This is why there was uproar when the Buckingham Palace refurbishment was announced, the recent Paradise Papers, and the uproar when Harry broke the rules by not returning to Britain immediately after an official trip to visit his girlfriend abroad.

The British people are no longer in a mood to just accept things as they are from the establishment. Any perception of nepotism or preferential treatment will be frowned upon. The royals will need to be extremely careful with how this will look which is why I don't think they should rush things as soon as Meghan arrives in England after Suits wraps up. Public opinion does matter a great deal where the royals are concerned.

 

[Rudolph]

Which, for me, raises the question: is there any possibility within British custom/the standards set by the currently applicable letters patent for a scenario in which Meghan marries Harry without becoming a princess (with the duties thereof)? We're all assuming that she'll do the same as every other woman who has thus far married a British prince and take on the titles and responsibilities that have traditionally come with the wedding ring, but in recent generations we've seen the BRF move slightly away from the model that all princesses marry men with titles, all sons of the monarch be made dukes upon marriage, and all grandchildren eligible for HRH to actually use it. Could it be possible for the wife of a prince to not truly be royal?

Let me clarify, I don't think that's likely. I'm wondering if it's possible. I'm just engaging in a thought experiment, not anything in the neighborhood of a prediction.

Anything is possible for The Queen. Princess Harry works the same as Mrs Harry Windsor.

It’s the practice under common law.

Meghan can’t be forced to take her husbands styles and titles but that would open up an Alice in wonderland debate which I know you’re not trying to do.

 

[Rudolph]

The 1917 LP makes no mention of wives. Under common law a women would automatically adopt her husbands name and title. English common law worked this way for years.

Nowadays lots of women don’t take their husbands name. If Harry was anybody else I doubt Meghan would but marrying Harry shes stepping back through the mists of time.

 

[Curryong]

If Meghan were marrying anyone else but Harry however, she would be almost certainly keeping her professional name (and contininuing to act.) Many, many actresses are known by their own not their marital names. As a member of the BRF she would not be allowed to continue with her profession, as we know.

 

[Lady Nimue]

I think that is what an engagement is for, to formally introduce Harry's future wife to the people of the UK and Commonwealth. They can't do it in a "no ring, no bring" private or royal engagement situation and it's a little pointless being in the UK, even living with Harry, but not being able to be an officially recognised +1.

That describes Meghan's status when she joined Harry at the IG. For the opening and closing ceremonies, she was not front and centre beside Harry. An engagement brings her officially to Harry's side. Without a ring it's open season on Meghan!

I think the final sentence pretty much states the situation. In a very definite way, Meghan will have the protection she needs with a formal engagement announcement. Nothing will be 'proven' allowing Meghan to run any gauntlet while she whiles away an ambiguous residence in the UK (and let's face it, she will be living with Harry at Nottingham Cottage, not setting up a flat in Chelsea).

Meghan is well-traveled. My hunch is Meghan has already been in the UK (as a visitor) a lot. She knows the UK as much as she can under the circumstances. Being in the UK will have as it's purpose the living day-in-day-out with Harry. Having that arrangement 'covered' under an 'engagement' seems sensible.

Optics seem to dictate that Meghan has the protection of an engagement precisely because she is not a British citizen.

BTW, it will be interesting to see how they handle this aspect. In fact, might Harry and Meghan decide to live in France, with Harry commuting? Interesting possibility. Living in the UK is not a given methinks. Just rambling.

 

[Pranter]

From what I have read Meghan has visited the UK many times since she's had friends there prior to even meeting Harry.


LaRae

 

[Curryong]

I can just hear the screams of indignation from the British public about the costs of RPOs and other security should a British Prince and his girlfriend decide to live in continental Europe (even if that were possible, which it wouldn't be.) The tabloids, DF commenters, Britexiters, etc would go berserk.

 

[Pranter]

Oh heavens there would be a meltdown of the likes we haven't seen in decades. If Harry were to go live elsewhere he'd need to renounce his place in succession and go be a private citizen. It's the only way he would get away with it.


LaRae

 

[Countessmeout]

There are a few givens:

1. Harry will live and work in the UK.
2. His wife will be expected to work for the firm.

The only question is when Meghan and Harry will take that next step to marriage.

Harry is a senior royal, and will be one of only 2 kids of the king when his dad takes the throne. He doesn't have the luxury of someone like Edward or Anne did. He and his wife will be expected to pull their weight in the royal game for the next 30 years at the very least, until George and his siblings are old enough. That would mean living in the UK and doing royal duties.

As for Europe. Meghan is not an EU citizen, Harry soon wont be. There would be the same VISA and other issues for her on the continent as in the UK. Not to mention the expense of running a house on the continent (no free rent in Kensington). RPO as they would need security. The money to commute back and forth for Harry to the UK. I mean there is no way this should have even appeared as a possibility. The US would make more sense for someone to suggest but even that isn't going to happen.

Meghan is not going to be working until she marries. She needs to 'contribute'? How does one measure that? Does simply living in the UK contribute to the UK? How was Kate contributing before marriage? If Meghan gets a work or volunteer visa, some public will scream she got it due to Harry and that she took work from others. If she lives with him for a year in his cottage and doesn't work, people will call her a gold digger. If she continues her volunteer work over seas while living with him, people will say she is running off with another man or that she isn't committed. There is really no scenario that will work for everyone. The couple needs to find out what works for them and what works for the royals. Nothing else matters.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

So you say she's entitled to RPO's if she's engaged but you don't want her to be engaged because you don't want her to have taxpayer money too soon. What does 3 or even 6 months matter?

The logic is a bit lacking in your position Queen E.


LaRae

The mood in Britain has undoubtedly changed & the royals are expected to be more accountable and are now being held up to greater scrutiny.

This is why there was uproar when the Buckingham Palace refurbishment was announced, the recent Paradise Papers, and the uproar when Harry broke the rules by not returning to Britain immediately after an official trip to visit his girlfriend abroad.

The British people are no longer in a mood to just accept things as they are from the establishment. Any perception of nepotism or preferential treatment will be frowned upon. The royals will need to be extremely careful with how this will look which is why I don't think they should rush things as soon as Meghan arrives in England after Suits wraps up. Public opinion does matter a great deal where the royals are concerned.

I believe that "uproar" has been primarily manufactured by the tabloid press. Buckingham Palace is in desperate need of repair, the financial stuff overblown in regards to the Queen. Harry was foolish to not follow the travel guidelines-while I think they are overly strict they are in place and should be followed.

What nepotism? You're the one advocating Meghan move to the U.K. as a girlfriend and work somewhere for awhile before getting engaged. Many of us believe that unnecessary. The things some people find objectionable about Meghan will not change by her hanging out in Britain for a few months.

 

[DeeT]

Oh heavens there would be a meltdown of the likes we haven't seen in decades. If Harry were to go live elsewhere he'd need to renounce his place in succession and go be a private citizen. It's the only way he would get away with it.


LaRae

I think Harry & Meghan will live in the UK. However just wanted to note that The Queen, when she was still a Princess, & Prince Philip lived in Malta for a couple of years, early in their marriage.

 

[Dman]

It’s going to be a good day once Harry get around to announcing his engagement. We would be able to move on to new official debates.

 

[DeeT]

I think the final sentence pretty much states the situation. In a very definite way, Meghan will have the protection she needs with a formal engagement announcement. Nothing will be 'proven' allowing Meghan to run any gauntlet while she whiles away an ambiguous residence in the UK (and let's face it, she will be living with Harry at Nottingham Cottage, not setting up a flat in Chelsea).

Meghan is well-traveled. I would make a hunch that Meghan has already been in the UK (as a visitor) a lot. She knows the UK as much as she can under the circumstances. Being in the UK will have as it's purpose to live day-in-day-out with Harry, and having that arrangement 'covered' under an 'engagement' seems likely only sensible.

Optics seems to dictate that Meghan have the protection of an engagement precisely because she is not a British citizen.

BTW, it will be interesting to see how they handle this aspect. In fact, might Harry and Meghan decide to live in France, with Harry commuting? Interesting possibility. Living in the UK is not a given methinks. Just rambling.

Yes Meghan has traveled to a lot of countries before meeting Harry. Meghan has also worked in the UK, in 2013, one of the movies that she was in, was mainly filmed in the UK.

 

[Missjersey]

It’s going to be a good day once Harry get around to announcing his engagement. We would be able to move on to new official debates.

That sums it up!

 

[LadyGlendower]

After months of discussing titles, homes, hair, tiaras, wedding venues, honeymoon locations, BRF working roles, pets and everything else.....I am ready for them to make an announcement! Now that the Suits news has hit Variety, I'm chomping at the bit.

I am new to this forum so I don't have the endurance of the rest of you yet----the ramp ups to Victoria/Daniel and William/Kate must have served you well and I salute you for your patience and seasoned perspectives.

 

[Pranter]

I think Harry & Meghan will live in the UK. However just wanted to note that The Queen, when she was still a Princess, & Prince Philip lived in Malta for a couple of years, early in their marriage.

Because her husband was stationed there. Not because she just wanted to live abroad.

LaRae

 

[Abbigail]

So there is talk of today being Meghan's last day on set. I think we'll start to hear some announcements pretty soon, starting with Suits. The next month or so should be very interesting. ?

 

[Lady Nimue]

So there is talk of today being Meghan's last day on set. I think we'll start to hear some announcements pretty soon, starting with Suits. The next month or so should be very interesting. ?

If it's all the way so many are guessing it is (and I'm inclined to think it may well be so, maybe), imagine what a thrilling time this must be for Meghan. So curious how they will roll this whole thing out.

 

[Rudolph]

Serena Williams is getting married this week any chance at all of Meghan and Harry attending?

 

[Abbigail]

We'll see if the wedding is actually happening this week. If so, then Meghan most likely will be there. Not sure about Harry. Would be a pleasant surprise if they both did attend. I would happily settle for seeing Meghan though.

If it's all the way so many are guessing it is (and I'm inclined to think it may well be so, maybe), imagine what a thrilling time this must be for Meghan. So curious how they will roll this whole thing out.

Thrilling and probably a little scary. But definitely an exciting time. I'm curious as well and looking forward to seeing how it all unfolds.

 

[jacqui24]

Serena Williams is getting married this week any chance at all of Meghan and Harry attending?

We’ll have to see. Serena us getting married in New Orleans instead of UK. So it wouldn’t be as easy for Harry’s schedule. I’m not sure what his diary looks like the day before or after. As for Meghan, she’s shied away from Patrick’s wedding even though Patrick describes her like a sister multiple times out of respect for the couple. So who knows?

 

[Countessmeout]

Serena Williams is getting married this week any chance at all of Meghan and Harry attending?

Meghan highly likely. Harry??? Highly doubtful. Him flying to New Orleans to attend a 'celebrity wedding', and the costs that go along with that. They get enough press for attending weddings abroad of their friends. But for him to go for a wedding of someone he doesn't know.

I honestly don't see Meghan moving until December. She has her things to sort out and then Thanksgiving. If she is moving over and doesn't plan to marry in six months, she will have to go as a tourist which means she cant bring her things with her so she will need to see to storage. A stop over in New Orleans for the wedding would be little issue for her.