Harry and Meghan: Relationship Musings

[hel]

I think so. Harry will almost certainly get a Dukedom, making Meghan a Duchess, and the tabloids seem to think that their readers wouldn't know these women if addressed by their proper titles. So it will be Meghan Markle for sure for several years.

It's really less that they think that their readers won't know, but that they know for certain that people are more likely to be searching for Kate Middleton than the Duchess of Cambridge. Search results == money. Publish the words Kate Middleton or your article will not be found, let alone read.

Note the two search terms since April 29, 2011. Until that red line starts to equal that blue line, she will continue to be referred to regularly as Kate Middleton. The British royal press pack always use both.

https://trends.google.ca/trends/exp...7-10-10&q=kate middleton,Duchess of cambridge

As a result, Meghan will be Meghan Markle (though they'll also use her proper title) in the press long after Kate starts being referred to as the Princess of Wales or Queen.

 

[Countessmeout]

Its a simple reality. What is going to get the most clicks????

Kate Middleton vs Duchess of Cambridge. Meghan Markle vs Duchess of X?

Lets face it, there are a lot of people who don't care about royalty. They look at them like celebrities. And yes, many likely don't know or care what the title is. So Kate is Princess Kate or Kate Middleton. Meghan will be even worse as she was known before she started dating Harry. Being an actress, even if not hugely famous, she had a name of her own.

Media gets played for clicks on line. If Kate Middleton or Meghan Markle gets them more clicks, then that is what they will use. Because its a business, and they are after the bottom dollar.

 

[scriptgirl]

Thank you for that info! How on earth did you find it?

Just out of curiousity, does anyone know how common the names "Rachel" and "Meghan" are in the UK? Do any aristos have those names?

 

[Somebody]

What I cannot wrap my head around is an American, who espouses equality for all, is OK with having people bow and curtsey to her. Especially for no reason other than who she married. I will give leeway on taking the title since as I understand it Harry's wife will have it by virtue of marriage anyway (much like Camilla is in reality Princess of Wales regardless of the title she uses), but I simply cannot get over the bowing & curtseying. I would be appalled if someone felt the need to do so to me, and would make sure the public is informed that it is not something I am comfortable with, and do not want performed. It may come with the territory so to speak, but I would not be able to compromise my principles due to marriage.

MMV

Issuing a statement that you do not wish others to bow and curtsey to you because it is against your principles would be a sure way of alienating yourself from the BRF and the British public while at the same time bringing a lot of negative press to the BRF (as the queen not only allows but seems to encourage this kind of behavior - at least from her grandchildren; so it will be considerate criticism of the 'institute' she joins/ed). If this would be a matter of principle to Meghan, she shouldn't marry Harry as there is no way she can refuse this without coming off as 'the American' knowing better than the British what acceptable behavior is.

Of course, she doesn't need to encourage it and can even say in private to people she meets that there is no need to curtsey but she is expected to curtsey to the Queen (and others) and shouldn't refuse to do so or make a fuzz about others curtseying to her in formal situations (most people probably wouldn't do it any way but those who do shouldn't be rebuked). A formal announcement would be the worst of all...

King Willem-Alexander, for example, stated in the interview before he ascended the throne that he is fine with people calling him by his first name because he doesn't want protocol to stand in the way of his relation with the people. However, those who 'know better', for example people working for or with him will stick to protocol and not take him up on this statement: they will use his formal address 'your/his majesty'. In the same way, Harry's future wife will have some leeway in practice (she doesn't need to enforce the rule to others) but is expected to adhere to protocol when applicable.

 

[Somebody]

Just out of curiousity, does anyone know how common the names "Rachel" and "Meghan" are in the UK? Do any aristos have those names?

That information is easy to find In 2015 Rachel ranked 272nd on the list of girl names (given to baby girls in that year). In 1984 (this was the year closest to Meghan's birth that was listed) the name ranked 9th!
In 2015 Meghan ranked 819th on the list of girl names; in 1997 (the earliest they have for this name) the name ranked 286th.

Regarding aristocrats, I am sure that Rachel is more common than Meghan as it is a more traditional name. One example: Lady Rachel Fitzalan-Howard (born 1989), eldest daughter of the 18th Duke of Norfolk (i.e., the number 1 dukedom in England - in that role the duke is the Earl Marshal and as such responsible for state events such as state funerals and coronations). Lady Rachel was probably named after the eldest daughter of the 15th duke; Lady (Mary) Rachel Pepys (1905-1992) - lady-in-waiting to The Duchess of Kent (princess Marina).

Yet, I don't see a reason for Meghan to change her name. She has gone by Meghan her whole life, so I expect her to be called 'Meghan Markle' in any press communication during the engagement (assuming that they will get engaged of course) - afterwards the court will use her new title.

 

[Countessmeout]

Thank you for that info! How on earth did you find it?

Just out of curiousity, does anyone know how common the names "Rachel" and "Meghan" are in the UK? Do any aristos have those names?

The Duke of Norfolk has a daughter named Rachel. There are a few Lady Rachel that come up historically if you google, but that is the only living one I am aware of. Not going to sort through aristocracy to find others.

The aristocracy tends to be quite a lot broader in choosing names for their kids. Countries, animals, Shakespearean characters.....

 

[Osipi]

As for Meghan with the social media, we have to remember what happened before she shut down the Tig and quit posting on IG and Twitter. She basically was hunted down because of her budding involvement with Harry and it wasn't pretty. It all came to a head with Harry issuing a statement a year ago. Nothing about this couple's relationship was every played out either in the media or on social media and they were pretty much under the radar. One way to assure their relationship remained private was to shut down her accounts. It makes sense that when people were going to the Tig because of her relationship rather than the information she was sharing, the purpose for it went away. It was time to close it.

I really don't think Meghan will have a problem adjusting to protocol. It is just something that is. Harry is a pretty informal guy when he's out and about with the people yet he can act accordingly when protocol dictates it. William has been in situations where he'd say "just call me William" but has done some of the most proper bows I've seen to his grandmother. There is a time and a place for everything and I don't think Meghan would get her sensibilities in a twist because of them.

I would lay odds that it will be common to see Meghan's name in the press as Meghan Markle for a very long time. There are places that even still use the name Camilla Parker-Bowles for Camilla. As was stated earlier, they use what generates the clicks the most and most definitely aren't sticklers for proper names.

None of this stuff really concerns the public. Meghan will do just fine but I do expect that once married, Meghan's public profile and the things we see and hear about her are going to be mostly related to her public life. Their private lives are going to be strictly off limits much as it is now and probably more so.

 

[Pranter]

MMV I hope you never have to live in Japan. The customary bowing would upset the applecart I'd say!

None of the BRF require folks to curtesy, even the Queen doesn't always get one. I'm sure if Meghan marries Harry she will be able to understand that a curtesy now and then to her is just a matter of custom and nothing more.



LaRae

 

[duchessrachel]

It may come with the territory so to speak, but I would not be able to compromise my principles due to marriage.

MMV

That is something that I am sure she has thought about. In the case of the BRF, she will have to decide if she loves Harry enough to accept someone bowing and curtsying to her. If she has a problem with it, I suspect there will be no marriage. She is going to have to take on the traditions of that family.

 

[Denville]

What is the problem? She's goig to have to curtsey to the queen and to royals who are higher up than her.. so she better get used ot it all.

 

[Osipi]

I can't think that this would be any problem whatsoever. Its all part and parcel of taking on Harry and his role in the "Firm". As bowing an/or curtsying denotes a mark of respect and is, for the most part, optional, she'll easily adapt to the any protocol she has to follow.

To me, its similar to doors. Some women actually take offense to a man opening and holding a door for her while some find it still chivalrous for a man to do so. I'm in the latter category. Then again, there are times where I'd open and hold a door for man. Especially if its the other half and he's carrying all the groceries.

 

[wyevale]

I cannot see why so many [generally] Americans view bowing/cutseying as 'bowing and scraping' rather than a gesture of respect to either an individual, or office or Nation [depending on ones own feelings]...
After all Americans show huge respect for a FLAG, which we find completely bizarre. Nevertheless if I lived in America, I would accept it, as Ms Markle will have to accept our habits and eccentricities IF she chooses to make a life amongst us.

 

[Pranter]

I don't think most Americans give it a thought really...and if they think it is 'bowing and scraping' to me that indicates they really don't understand the history or the way things are currently.

If a countries traditions harm no one then who cares if a person bows or kneels or shakes hands? Some cultures rub noses or touch foreheads!

LaRae

 

[sndral]

If you watch a couple of the Jane Austin based movie/series, you'll see the characters curtsying and bowing to each other all over the place.
The subtle differences in customs sort of hit me several months ago when I was on a cruise in the Adriatic and came to know a delightful group of folks from England. Midway through the cruise we'd apparently become close enough to reach the cheek kissing stage - something not really done in my part of California (which BTW is currently blanketed by a thick fog of smoke.) I thought it was charming and soon got the hang of it
I'm sure Meghan will graciously accept the social customs/norms of her adopted country if a marriage happens.

 

[loonytick]

Thanks for your reply, jacqui24. I agree that these days it is a choice, but I would be so uncomfortable with people making that choice when it would come to bowing & curtseying to me. That's why I think I would make it known that I do not want anyone bowing or curtseying in my direction. And honestly, I can't imagine any American being fine with it.

As an American, I'd find it strange to get used to, but I would just get used to it because it wouldn't be my place to do otherwise. I think many Americans in that position would do the same.

I don't think the custom still carries the connotations of subservience that you seem to be ascribing to it. It seems to me that it would be very rude (and more than a little selfish) to instruct people not to engage in a bow or curtsey if that's what they want to do. They're completely a matter of personal taste now, so issuing a ban on them would be like insisting that people avoid the word "hello" when greeting you--it would be more than a little imperious and picky.

They're not really bowing to the person, after all, but to the title. In this day and age it's more about some people wanting to make a nod to tradition than it is truly putting royals on a pedestal. Shoot, people showing up at public appearances at all is as much or more about interest in the concept of royalty than it is the individual who is going to be there. It's wise for any member of any royal family to remember that basic concept as they go about their duties and separate their own ego and sense of self from the attention that comes with their position.

As an actress, Meghan has more practice than most with separating her work self from her own self. If she does marry Harry, I suspect making peace with accepting the attention of the crowd, including very British customs like bows and curtseys, will just be part of the "role" or "character" of her new gig.

 

[georgiea]

As an actress, Meghan has more practice than most with separating her work self from her own self. If she does marry Harry,
I suspect making peace with accepting the attention of the crowd, including very British customs like bows and curtseies, will just be part of the "role" or "character" of her new gig[/B].

Very well said, loonytick. This reminds me of what I heard about Princess Grace of Monaco being told she would play her most important role as a princess and not a Hollywood actress.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

As an American, I'd find it strange to get used to, but I would just get used to it because it wouldn't be my place to do otherwise. I think many Americans in that position would do the same.

I don't think the custom still carries the connotations of subservience that you seem to be ascribing to it. It seems to me that it would be very rude (and more than a little selfish) to instruct people not to engage in a bow or curtsey if that's what they want to do. They're completely a matter of personal taste now, so issuing a ban on them would be like insisting that people avoid the word "hello" when greeting you--it would be more than a little imperious and picky.

They're not really bowing to the person, after all, but to the title. In this day and age it's more about some people wanting to make a nod to tradition than it is truly putting royals on a pedestal. Shoot, people showing up at public appearances at all is as much or more about interest in the concept of royalty than it is the individual who is going to be there. It's wise for any member of any royal family to remember that basic concept as they go about their duties and separate their own ego and sense of self from the attention that comes with their position.

As an actress, Meghan has more practice than most with separating her work self from her own self. If she does marry Harry, I suspect making peace with accepting the attention of the crowd, including very British customs like bows and curtseys, will just be part of the "role" or "character" of her new gig.

I agree with your points. In fact I think the Royals in general have their public personas and style that are different from their privates selves. I doubt Meghan will have issues with adapting should she marry Harry.

 

[AdmirerUS]

I don't think most Americans give it a thought really...and if they think it is 'bowing and scraping' to me that indicates they really don't understand the history or the way things are currently.

If a countries traditions harm no one then who cares if a person bows or kneels or shakes hands? Some cultures rub noses or touch foreheads!

LaRae

Just my personal experience. I've known any number of Korean War Veteran era Americans who always reacted quite negatively to speaking of bowing to any king/queen. It's the only generation here that I've seen with this issue. I think in general, most Americans either are oblivious to or find royalty some kind of amusement.

I've always thought these cranky pants lived through some events in the press that marked them, but I've never come across anyone that could tell me why they felt as they did. I usually got some version of "we are Americans and we bow to no one, do you hear me? No one!"

Off topic, except to say that I doubt much of the US population cares one way or another how Meghan deals with this.

 

[rominet09]

I don't think it is a big problem.... every situation in life has its advantages and disadvantages.....

 

[Countessmeout]

It seems it is an issue when it is who is doing the bowing and to whom. I recall a lot of criticism of Obama and bowing to the emperor, and the Saudi king. The idea that the president of the US should bow to anyone was outrageous to many. It was seen as a sign of subservience not respect.

I don't think Meghan will have an issue with being bowed to. And honestly, its not likely to happen much now a days. Other then to the queen. Its just one aspect of royal life she will get used to, being bowed to and bowing. Critical thinking adults can understand its simply a sign of respect, not of obedience.

 

[Pranter]

It seems it is an issue when it is who is doing the bowing and to whom. I recall a lot of criticism of Obama and bowing to the emperor, and the Saudi king. The idea that the president of the US should bow to anyone was outrageous to many. It was seen as a sign of subservience not respect.

I don't think Meghan will have an issue with being bowed to. And honestly, its not likely to happen much now a days. Other then to the queen. Its just one aspect of royal life she will get used to, being bowed to and bowing. Critical thinking adults can understand its simply a sign of respect, not of obedience.

The reason for the "outrage" was that it is not the custom in the U.S. for a president to do so. The Queen doesn't bow/curtsey....there's a reason.

From what I have seen at the various events with the BRF...the majority don't curtsey to them.


LaRae

 

[Countessmeout]

No, because its not Required for a head of state to bow to another. Note Prince Philip does bow to the emperor, even if his wife does not. No one, save the prime minister of GB out of custom, is expected to bow to the queen politician wise.

Obama certainly wasn't the first president to bow, though people make it out like he was doing something never done before and subservient.


http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images.../24/1298562362208/BRITAIN-BUSH-EUROPE-007.jpg

http://silencedmajority.blogs.com/.a/6a00d834520b4b69e20120a6a46016970b-pi

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01523/clinton-japanese_1523801i.jpg

Meghan would certainly be in good company.

 

[Pranter]

My guess is that there was some 'outrage' then too if another president bowed to another head of state.


LaRae

 

[Countessmeout]

My guess is that there was some 'outrage' then too if another president bowed to another head of state.


LaRae

It really is a sad state of affairs when showing Respect is outrageous

Hopefully if Meghan has grown up with a similar mind set, her 'princess training' will help her realize bowing is simply respect. When in Rome and all.

 

[Pranter]

It really is a sad state of affairs when showing Respect is outrageous

Hopefully if Meghan has grown up with a similar mind set, her 'princess training' will help her realize bowing is simply respect. When in Rome and all.

I think the average private citizen doing it is no big deal...but it is different when a head of state does it. Meghan will be marrying into a family that curtesy's ....that's a totally different thing than a head of state bowing to another head of state.

LaRae

 

[Jacknch]

Please note that to discuss the subject of bowing and curtseying generally and our individual thoughts on the matter, we have the http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f162/bowing-and-curtseying-4676.html thread.

 

[csw]

More from the Daily Fail
Are Meghan Markle and Prince Harry already engaged? | Daily Mail Online

 

[Osipi]

Just one more thought about Meghan having to adapt to certain protocols if and when she marries into the the BRF.

Most people that take offense to certain protocols such as deference to the order or precedence or any other protocol that may be seem outdated and perhaps even sexist to one born and raised in the USA, to me, would be the type of person that would perhaps put more importance on their own self esteem and ego and have a harder time of adapting to these protocols.

Meghan, to me, does not come across as this type of a person. She most definitely is not one that seeks attention to herself. She seems to put more emphasis into wanting to give back than to receive and even with being a professional actress, she has a talent for adapting to different "roles".

If and when she does marry Harry, I think she will easily be able to adapt to whatever her public role will entail. She will be genuine in her role also as I don't think Harry would stick around someone that isn't genuine. Its a character trait that stands out with Harry and he's been around enough to instinctively know when someone is brown nosing him or isn't being their true selves. The fact that these two people have consistently kept a very close relationship going from both sides indicates to me that these are two genuine people that are in genuinely in love with each other.

 

[BlytheAnne]

If Meghan had any qualms about bowing or following even seemingly antiquated foreign customs she wouldn't have studied International Relations or taken a job in the foreign services, IMO.

As a member of staff at a US embassy she would have done things like allow senior staff to walk in front of her, stand and remain standing until outranking officials have seated themselves at dinner parties, know and follow local greeting customs like kisses/handshakes/bows, and even follow seemingly outdated gender roles if necessary because "lacking a specific mission agenda, the diplomat's role is not to change host country customs".

https://www.state.gov/documents/organization/176174.pdf

Learning and following protocol, bowing or otherwise, is one area I don't see Meghan having any issues with.

 

[scriptgirl]

The comments re that Daily Fail article are horrible. It seems like no one in the UK like Meghan. They fear she will dilute the blood line and end the royal family and think she is attention seeking.