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  #921  
Old 04-30-2019, 08:36 PM
MaiaMia_53's Avatar
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Originally Posted by Fem View Post
I'm pretty sure it wouldn't look like that. It would be either:
Princess Allegra of Sussex (in case the child has a HRH title)
OR
Lady Allegra Frances Jeanette Mountbatten-Windsor (in case the child doesn't have a HRH title)

I have no idea how Lady Allegra Sussex of Wales would ever work.
Right, I'm no expert on British royal titles, and the protocol surrounding names. I thought it might be possible the Sussex children would use 'Sussex' as a surname in school, but perhaps not since they won't be royal.

Harry went by Wales when he was in the military, but that's before he became the Duke of Sussex. And when Charles becomes King, Prince William will become the Prince of Wales, so his kids will then have access to the Wales moniker. So right, 'Sussex of Wales,' is a fanciful 'no-go' inaccuracy.

Harry's children will not be born royal, and I see no reason to believe a decision might be made to extend them royal titles when Charles becomes King. Therefore, no 'Princess Allegra,' alas.

In Omid Scobie's latest GMA report, he quotes a source close to the couple as saying, "Meghan and Harry are under no pressure to choose a traditional name... While they want to embrace the traditional side, they also want to reflect the modernity of their relationship."

https://twitter.com/GMA/status/1123200316659265537

The fact that the name 'Diana' is leading in the betting speculation is so overly sentimental. I would be surprised to see a girl saddled with that moniker for a first name. I don't think it will even be picked as a second or third name, but that's more likely than as a first name.

Lainey Gossip's hope: May 4 'Arthur, Grace, Jedi?'
https://www.laineygossip.com/(S(sezi...-may-4th/54543
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  #922  
Old 04-30-2019, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Right, I'm no expert on British royal titles, and the protocol surrounding names. I thought it might be possible the Sussex children would use 'Sussex' as a surname in school, but perhaps not since they won't be royal.

Harry went by Wales when he was in the military, but that's before he became the Duke of Sussex. And when Charles becomes King, Prince William will become the Prince of Wales, so his kids will then have access to the Wales moniker. So right, 'Sussex of Wales,' is a fanciful 'no-go' inaccuracy.

Harry's children will not be born royal, and I see no reason to believe a decision might be made to extend them royal titles when Charles becomes King. Therefore, no 'Princess Allegra,' alas.
Might be interested one day to look at British titles thread. Learn a bit more.

Harry going by Wales: Because his dad was Prince of Wales. Kids usually take their father's last name. Charles has no surname, neither do his sons. So they used his designation as a surname. As now William's kids use his designation as a last name. The only member of the queen's family who have a surname are male line descendents who have no HRH. Right now that is Louise and James. Baby Sussex will be included.

Charles extending a title: Charles has no need to extend a title. Its automatic. Any male line grandchildren of the monarch are HRH, that is how the LP's are written. So while during Elizabeth's reign new Lp's would have to be issued for the baby to be HRH, its not the case with Charles. His grandchildren will automatically be HRH. The only action needed would be if he chose to Deny them the title, like James and Louise, and issued a LP.

Elizabeth didn't choose to extend the LP (as she did for Charlotte and Louis as originally William's eldest child would be entitled to it during the queen's reign). Likely as she knew the baby would get it when grandpa was king anyways. And until the baby is in school, or even older, not really a need.
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  #923  
Old 04-30-2019, 10:06 PM
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Vicdoria would be nice for a girl's name
  #924  
Old 04-30-2019, 11:43 PM
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Could Queen Elizabeth II issue letters patent to allow the the Duke and Duchess of Sussex's child to be styled as Prince or Princess after the baby's birth? Or is this a requirement before the birth?
  #925  
Old 04-30-2019, 11:50 PM
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Logic tells me that if the LPs were ever going to be issued, it would have happened before the birth. I seriously do not think the Queen would do it after the baby has arrived as then it seems like an afterthought. The child would have been born Lord/Lady as a child of a royal duke and then elevated once it arrived. The British just do not do things that way.

I don't think we're going to hear anything on the subject of the Sussex children's titles until Charles becomes King. If Charles issues LPs, then the kids will continue to be titled and styled as children of a Duke. If Charles does nothing, the kids will automatically be HRH Prince/ss of the UK.
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  #926  
Old 05-01-2019, 04:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaiaMia_53 View Post
Right, I'm no expert on British royal titles, and the protocol surrounding names. I thought it might be possible the Sussex children would use 'Sussex' as a surname in school, but perhaps not since they won't be royal.
I mean, it's not impossible that they will use "Sussex" as a surname in school - if they'll get the HRH title after Charles becomes king, that would probably be a possible option. But it's hard to predict, because it depends on many things happening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaiaMia_53 View Post
Harry's children will not be born royal, and I see no reason to believe a decision might be made to extend them royal titles when Charles becomes King. Therefore, no 'Princess Allegra,' alas.
It's exactly the opposite. H&M's child(ren) automatically become HRH the moment Charles becomes the king. They don't have to do anything, sign anything - they'll be the grandchildren of the monarch, so that gives them the title, no question asked, no action needed (like Princess Beatrice and Princess Eugenie). But they would have to issue LP if they wanted to keep children without their titles (like with Louise and James). And since we don't know what will happen, it's possible that the children will have the HRH titles.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MaiaMia_53 View Post
The fact that the name 'Diana' is leading in the betting speculation is so overly sentimental. I would be surprised to see a girl saddled with that moniker for a first name. I don't think it will even be picked as a second or third name, but that's more likely than as a first name.

I hope they won't do it. I understand the logic of it, I really do, and I understand how they (or Harry, in this case) might want to honor his late mother with this, but it's way too soon. It would be a huge burden for the child.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Logic tells me that if the LPs were ever going to be issued, it would have happened before the birth. I seriously do not think the Queen would do it after the baby has arrived as then it seems like an afterthought. The child would have been born Lord/Lady as a child of a royal duke and then elevated once it arrived. The British just do not do things that way.
I agree. They had plenty of time to figure out what they want to do with this and they chose to do nothing - at least for now.

Could they possibly - I know it's a long shot and not likely to happen - issue the LP with the birth announcement? Or something like that?
  #927  
Old 05-01-2019, 04:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fem View Post
Could they possibly - I know it's a long shot and not likely to happen - issue the LP with the birth announcement? Or something like that?
Perhaps no LP but an announcment similar to the one that was released on Edward and Sophie's Wedding Day.
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  #928  
Old 05-01-2019, 06:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Logic tells me that if the LPs were ever going to be issued, it would have happened before the birth. I seriously do not think the Queen would do it after the baby has arrived as then it seems like an afterthought. The child would have been born Lord/Lady as a child of a royal duke and then elevated once it arrived. The British just do not do things that way.

I don't think we're going to hear anything on the subject of the Sussex children's titles until Charles becomes King. If Charles issues LPs, then the kids will continue to be titled and styled as children of a Duke. If Charles does nothing, the kids will automatically be HRH Prince/ss of the UK.
there have been cases as far as I remember where children have been born with one title and had it elevated. As far as I remember the children of Princess Louise, Duchess of Fife were style Lady Alexandra and Lady ? but later were made princesses....And also the opposite has happened... where royals who had German titles which they used in Britain were given titles of nobility and dropped the Prince titles. The Battenburgs Princes and Princesses were given lower titles.. George became Lord Milford Haven, Louis was Lord Louis Mountbatten and Princess Louise became lady Louise Mountbatten
  #929  
Old 05-01-2019, 06:52 AM
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It's all a more than a little confusing for the kids. When George was born her own longevity meant a direct heir would have no HRH so she issued letters patent to remedy the situation. So George knows who he is and that is "Prince" George and at school his surname is Cambridge and for sense and continuity, HM did the same for Charlotte and Louis.

Because Harry, just like William, will become the son of the Monarch when Charles takes the throne, I see no sense in not doing the same for Harry's children.
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  #930  
Old 05-01-2019, 06:59 AM
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But they will be HRH if and when Charles becomes King.. so no need to do anything.. Unless Harry really doesn't want his children to have a royal title..and wants them to be Earl and Lady X WIndsor. Then it would be necessary to make that clear....
  #931  
Old 05-01-2019, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARG View Post
Because Harry, just like William, will become the son of the Monarch when Charles takes the throne, I see no sense in not doing the same for Harry's children.
It's possible that Harry's children won't have the HRH title even after Charles becomes king - maybe they're planning to go the Edward and Sophie route.
  #932  
Old 05-01-2019, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post

Harry going by Wales: Because his dad was Prince of Wales. Kids usually take their father's last name. Charles has no surname, neither do his sons. So they used his designation as a surname. As now William's kids use his designation as a last name. The only member of the queen's family who have a surname are male line descendents who have no HRH. Right now that is Louise and James. Baby Sussex will be included.

Both British princes(ses) and British peers technically have legal surnames but do not use them, except as part of any legal documents in which they desire to use a surname (for example, as stated on the official website of the monarchy , Princess Anne used the name Mountbatten-Windsor in her marriage registry). They are not required to use a surname in British legal documents.

Since royals and peers generally do not use their legal surnames, per convention they use the territorial designations in their titles as pseudo-surnames, if they desire to be known with a surname outside of legal documents. Princess Eugenie of York is known in her art career as Eugenie York, though her legal surname is probably Brooksbank. The queen's nephew the Earl of Snowdon is known in his career as David Snowdon, though his legal surname is Armstrong-Jones.

Precedent would suggest that if the Sussex child is styled Earl of Dumbarton, he will be known as "xxxx Dumbarton" at school. However, since he is not yet a peer legally (the Earldom of Dumbarton legally belongs to his father) and is not yet a prince, his legal documents will need a surname, which will be Mountbatten-Windsor.
  #933  
Old 05-01-2019, 08:26 AM
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And there is no garantee that Charles will become king. It is most likely to happen but if his mother would outlive him, Harry's child would only be the great grandchild of a king so not entitled to the style and title of royal highness and prince(ss). So, I see little reason to hurry things up. The opposite (of this child never being a royal highness) seems a realistic option as well to make it clear from the onset that he/she will not work for the firm.
  #934  
Old 05-01-2019, 09:38 AM
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And there is no garantee that Charles will become king. It is most likely to happen but if his mother would outlive him, Harry's child would only be the great grandchild of a king so not entitled to the style and title of royal highness and prince(ss). So, I see little reason to hurry things up. The opposite (of this child never being a royal highness) seems a realistic option as well to make it clear from the onset that he/she will not work for the firm.
Yes, you are correct. I personally feel that Charles already knows exactly how and who he wants in his firm and in what position. You know he has met with the Queen and they have both gone over each idea and problem solved to their satisfaction already. Absurd not to think so, especially at the Queen's age. She is not the type to let important manners in the Firm unfinished or not looked into in depth. Charles also will want a calm transition to his reign with each member knowing exactly where to stand and what is expected of them. He is the type that must be confident that each member will do exactly what is correct and follow strict rules of his firm. I also feel that his firm will be quite small with other royals still helping out in the fields that they enjoy. I was told that Camilla and Sophie get along really well and that Charles appreciates all her work that she accomplishes in a very quiet and understated way. Don't know, but maybe she and Edward will be called on more in Charles reign but not considered a proper member of the firm [money, etc.]. This could help him greatly until George, Charlotte and Louis are of the age to step up a bit and help granddad. Harry has said many times he doesn't really enjoy being "royal" and would never want to be king, so then he and his family could do their bit the way they enjoy and be able to make money [which firm members can't] and enjoy their lives as they plan. All would be much happier then in the long run. JMHO. Actually sincerely hope that your faithful Queen is still around when she is 100+ as I feel she has done a brilliant job in such a changing world and family.
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  #935  
Old 05-02-2019, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by MARG View Post
It's all a more than a little confusing for the kids. When George was born her own longevity meant a direct heir would have no HRH so she issued letters patent to remedy the situation. So George knows who he is and that is "Prince" George and at school his surname is Cambridge and for sense and continuity, HM did the same for Charlotte and Louis.

Because Harry, just like William, will become the son of the Monarch when Charles takes the throne, I see no sense in not doing the same for Harry's children.
In 1917 when George V issued LP limiting the HRH titles, they were for
children of the Sovereign
male line grandchildren of the Sovereign
eldest son of the eldest son of the POW.
Under this, Lady Louise and Lord Severn (children of Prince Edward are entitled to be HRH. THE REASON THEY ARE NOT IS BY PARENTAL CHOICE. The world has changed a lot since 1917.

Before the birth of Prince George, succession to the throne was changed by Parliament to the eldest CHILD (son or daughter) of the heir (DOC) of the heir (POW) If Prince George had been a girl and Princess Charlotte a boy, you would have had the strange matter of the direct heir not having a title. while her younger brother would have. To correct thus HM passed LP to give all of Prince William's children Royal titles. (Remember it is very rare for a living monarch to have so many direct heirs. It has only happened twice with QV and QE.)

If POW succeeds HM as expected the Sussex children will automatically have the HRH titles as male line grandchildren. If for some reason HM outlives the POW, the Sussex children will only have ducal titles UNLESS either HM or the new King William decided to issue new and once off LP.

Sometimes this has been done in the aristocracy. The old Duke/Earl dies after being predeceased by his son. His grandchildren, siblings of his grandson the new Duke/Earl are granted a courtesy title. I hope this clarifies the matter somewhat. Of course none of this matters if Harry and Meagan make a decision not to have HRH for their children.
  #936  
Old 05-02-2019, 07:54 AM
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Well at this point in time the international news is amazing and with the addition of the US, the child or children will need every bit of insulation and security that Harry had and that Meghan won't quite understand.

As the Cambridge children grow they may take the pressure off H & M's child(ren) and allow the the anonymity the Sussexes hope for theirs.
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  #937  
Old 05-02-2019, 08:53 AM
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I am going out on a limb and will say no titles for the Sussex children. I wouldn't even be surprised if they were simply "Alice Mountbatten-Windsor" or "Alexander Mountbatten-Windsor".

I just read a press item talking about how the Sussexes did not use Prince and Princess when sending birthday wishes to George and Charlotte. This leads me to believe that titles are not important to them. Ergo they will not seek them for their children.
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  #938  
Old 05-02-2019, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Alisa View Post
I just read a press item talking about how the Sussexes did not use Prince and Princess when sending birthday wishes to George and Charlotte. This leads me to believe that titles are not important to them. Ergo they will not seek them for their children.
I would be more likely to put it all down to a lack of formality between family members than to suggest that their titles aren't important to them. Their titles and styles are a necessity in the line of work they're in but among family members, they're just family. It remains to be seen just how Harry and Meghan will handle their child(ren)'s titles and styles going into the future and I sincerely think that we won't know anything now until Charles becomes King and hopefully that's a long, long way off.

We've seen a report where George wondered "why is Uncle Harry being so quiet?". We know that the Cambridge children call HM, The Queen "Gan-Gan". This is what families do.
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  #939  
Old 05-02-2019, 09:15 AM
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I think it will be a girl. I definitely see them going with a traditional first name such as Victoria, with Diana and Doria as second and third … perhaps, Elizabeth as a fourth name.
  #940  
Old 05-02-2019, 09:22 AM
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Yes, you are correct. I personally feel that Charles already knows exactly how and who he wants in his firm and in what position.
Yes Charles has expressed a wish for a more pared down working family but when you look at the current working royals you only have W&C, H&M, E&S who are under 60 years of age. The Princess Royal, Prince Andrew, the Gloucesters & Prince & Princess Michael are all close to or over 70 & the Kents & Princess Alexandra are in their 80's with the Dchs of Kent retired from public life.
In the years to come the younger members will have to step up to fill the gaps.
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