Princes Nikolai, Felix, Henrik & Princess Athena, News Part 2: July 2018 - 2022

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by Kataryn

Oh, poor Prince Nicolai. IMHO modern Denmark with it's strong love for equality is not a good place for young royals so far removed from the throne. No wonder he allegedly goes by Nicolai Fredericksborg on IG.

He had no problem calling himself "Prince Nikolai of Denmark" when he launched his modeling career. In fact, he was signed on to his modeling agency precisely under that name.



I suppose that is the main criticism of Prince Nikolai nowadays, i.e. that he is using his royal pedigree for personal profit.

[Kataryn]

Originally Posted by Mbruno

I suppose that is the main criticism of Prince Nikolai nowadays, i.e. that he is using his royal pedigree for personal profit.

That's the way it is today - everyone uses what they have to earn their keep. If Nicolai wasn't looking like a model, he would not get jobs, prince or not.So he gets more mney probably, but that's good for him and the Royal family, for he will not need to be supported by the taxpayers.



If the taxpayers and the government wanted to keep him "pure" they should be willing to pay for his keep. Otherwise he is just a normal citizen with a well-known name. Just like Mads Mikkelsen when he does ads for Carlsberg beer.

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by Kataryn

That's the way it is today - everyone uses what they have to earn their keep. If Nicolai wasn't looking like a model, he would not get jobs, prince or not.So he gets more mney probably, but that's good for him and the Royal family, for he will not need to be supported by the taxpayers.



If the taxpayers and the government wanted to keep him "pure" they should be willing to pay for his keep. Otherwise he is just a normal citizen with a well-known name. Just like Mads Mikkelsen when he does ads for Carlsberg beer.

That is actually a point on which I agree with you. Parliaments and governments nowadays increasingly want to limit public funding to the King and the Heir only, but, at the same time, society frowns upon other minor royals having a career or making money like any private citizen is entitled to do. A proper balance of course has to be found, but it can easily become impossible for a minor royal to engage in any business without being accused of taking advantage of his/her status as a member of the Royal Family.

[Muhler]

I agree with both of you.

One of the problems for Nikolai is that his modelling career is intertwined with who he is, rather than perhaps his looks and talent as a model. (I won't be the judge of that.)
In other words that he earns his living as model, because he is a Prince, and less because of what he is actually doing.
That can also be a problem is he works in a private company. At some point what whatever company he is employed in may do something that can be seen (especially if you want to!) as controversial. And ought a member of the DRF be associated with such a company?

So if Nikolai wish to remain a Prince I think the safest option for him would be somewhere deep in the state administration or the military.
The military is out it seems, so he can do an Elisabeth and vanish into a state office building somewhere. That should be pretty uncontroversial IMO.

Even if he got himself employed in Red Cross, that could at some point be controversial! Simply because relief organizations are also political.

I don't understand either why Isabella, Josephine and Athena can't become countesses of Montpezat in their own right. Perhaps because PH had a conservative view on that?
But since it's a title created by the Monarch there should be nothing to hinder Frederik in changing that, so that the girls can be countesses too. Or alternatively if he wish to respect the decision of his parents, he could create a new title, say countess of Marselisborg which is bestowed on the girls.

And you are right about women in DK keeping their maiden name. I think my generation is the last where the majority changed their name to that of their husbands.
My wife has my surname, but our children have both our surnames.

[Kataryn]

Originally Posted by Muhler

But since it's a title created by the Monarch there should be nothing to hinder Frederik in changing that, so that the girls can be countesses too. Or alternatively if he wish to respect the decision of his parents, he could create a new title, say countess of Marselisborg which is bestowed on the girls.

If we insist on thinking that the Blood Royal is something special (which is the base for monarchies!) we should remeber that it's the women who actually share the blood. I understand why the male line is the important line from back then to today, but nowadays intimes of equality we should get rid of the bad image of maternity and agree at least to equality. So any grandchild of a monarch has a right of recognition even if is mother is "just" a daughter of the monarch. In a country where the people accept nobility at all, there should be a accepted place for the "Blood Royal", no matter what gender the Royal parent is. And then let these people live like "normal" nobility. Which in Denmarl means they do business just like others.

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by Kataryn

If we insist on thinking that the Blood Royal is something special (which is the base for monarchies!) we should remeber that it's the women who actually share the blood. I understand why the male line is the important line from back then to today, but nowadays intimes of equality we should get rid of the bad image of maternity and agree at least to equality. So any grandchild of a monarch has a right of recognition even if is mother is "just" a daughter of the monarch. In a country where the people accept nobility at all, there should be a accepted place for the "Blood Royal", no matter what gender the Royal parent is. And then let these people live like "normal" nobility. Which in Denmarl means they do business just like others.

I agree.
With most children we are at least pretty sure who the mother is! Daddy can be a little more questionable...

In DK that was fortunately, and about time, changed in 2009.

And I cannot imagine, should king Frederik at some point create a new noble title, that he will say it's only the boys who can have the title.
That would be not only out of touch with the general public (most actually believe as a matter of course that the girls will become countesses of Montpezat.) but also go against the impression I have of Frederik as a person and what he believes in.
Apart from that, I think he would get the ice cold silent treatment from Mary if he created a title only to be inherited by boys.

[moby]

Originally Posted by Kataryn

That's the way it is today - everyone uses what they have to earn their keep. If Nicolai wasn't looking like a model, he would not get jobs, prince or not.So he gets more mney probably, but that's good for him and the Royal family, for he will not need to be supported by the taxpayers.

I would never understand people accomplishing little when they have unimaginable resources and connections. He is probably a good lad but it would be good to see him putting in hard work on something rather than banking on his good looks and family name. There's nothing wrong with modeling, but really, Prince Nikolai becoming just another nepotism model is just so meh. Makes me think he was indulged growing up.

[Kataryn]

Originally Posted by Muhler

That would be not only out of touch with the general public (most actually believe as a matter of course that the girls will become countesses of Montpezat.) but also go against the impression I have of Frederik as a person and what he believes in.
Apart from that, I think he would get the ice cold silent treatment from Mary if he created a title only to be inherited by boys.

I looked it up on the homepage of the DRF because I thought so, too, but they write that the boys are Greve af Monpezat but the girls are not Grevinde, but Komtesse, which means they are only "Daughters of the Count" - of their fathers while the boys got their own title.

Maybe Frederick will change that. I find it old-fashioned and not in sync with the way European societies tick.

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by Kataryn

I looked it up on the homepage of the DRF because I thought so, too, but they write that the boys are Greve af Monpezat but the girls are not Grevinde, but Komtesse, which means they are only "Daughters of the Count" - of their fathers while the boys got their own title.

Maybe Frederick will change that. I find it old-fashioned and not in sync with the way European societies tick.

Mr. Muhler can explain that, but as far as I understand, in Danish, a "komtesse" is a countess in her own right, whereas a "grevinde" is the wife of a count ("greve"). The only difference really between Queen Margrethe's grandsons and granddaughters in that respect is that the former can transmit the title to their descendants, whereas the latter cannot. That is also the case in the Belgian and Dutch nobilities, i.e. titles can be inherited only in paternal line because they are tied to the family name and the default rule was that family name was transmitted patrilineally.

[Muhler]

Well, Mr. Mbruno to be safe I looked it up.
Komtesse, comtesse does indeed mean countess - in French.

A komtesse is the unmarried daughter of a count, while a grevinde is married to a count (i.e. she has married to the title) or a countess in her own right (i.e. she is the bearer of the title, just like Countess Alexandra.)
Very unfairly the sons of a count are automatically counts, while a daughter has to be made a countess in her own right to inherit the title.

The same thing applies to barons.

Once a komtesse marries she gets the title of her husband if he has one. If not she becomes mrs XX.

The Germans are much more interesting when it comes to titles and I suggest you study the hierarchy there in order to really understand how the system works.
They start with Baron, Freiherr, Pfalzgraf, Markgraf (Marquis), Graf (count), Landgraf, Reichgraf, Herzog (Duke), Grossherzog, Erzherzog, Fürst, Prinz, Kurfürst, König (King), Kaizer (Emperor.)

Here is a site listing the various titles in order of rank, with the various titles in Danish, German, English, French - and other languages as well. As well as an explanation of the differences between the various titles. Albeit in Danish.
That's a good beginning.
https://www.lundskov.dk/kongehus/tex...nfo-fyrste.php

For example Benedikte married a Prinz.

In German context I believe PH would have been titled Freiherr.

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by Muhler

Well, Mr. Mbruno to be safe I looked it up.
Komtesse, comtesse does indeed mean countess - in French.

A komtesse is the unmarried daughter of a count, while a grevinde is married to a count (i.e. she has married to the title) or a countess in her own right (i.e. she is the bearer of the title, just like Countess Alexandra.)
Very unfairly the sons of a count are automatically counts, while a daughter has to be made a countess in her own right to inherit the title.

The same thing applies to barons.

Once a komtesse marries she gets the title of her husband if he has one. If not she becomes mrs XX.

The Germans are much more interesting when it comes to titles and I suggest you study the hierarchy there in order to really understand how the system works.
They start with Baron, Freiherr, Pfalzgraf, Markgraf (Marquis), Graf (count), Landgraf, Reichgraf, Herzog (Duke), Grossherzog, Erzherzog, Fürst, Prinz, Kurfürst, König (King), Kaizer (Emperor.)

Here is a site listing the various titles in order of rank, with the various titles in Danish, German, English, French - and other languages as well. As well as an explanation of the differences between the various titles. Albeit in Danish.
That's a good beginning.
https://www.lundskov.dk/kongehus/tex...nfo-fyrste.php

For example Benedikte married a Prinz.

In German context I believe PH would have been titled Freiherr.

Thanks, I stand corrected then in the sense that both wives of counts and a person who is made a countess in her own right are a “ grevinde” and only the unmarried daughter of a count is a “komtesse”.

[camelot23ca]

Originally Posted by Muhler

I agree with both of you.

One of the problems for Nikolai is that his modelling career is intertwined with who he is, rather than perhaps his looks and talent as a model. (I won't be the judge of that.)
In other words that he earns his living as model, because he is a Prince, and less because of what he is actually doing.
That can also be a problem is he works in a private company. At some point what whatever company he is employed in may do something that can be seen (especially if you want to!) as controversial. And ought a member of the DRF be associated with such a company?

So if Nikolai wish to remain a Prince I think the safest option for him would be somewhere deep in the state administration or the military.
The military is out it seems, so he can do an Elisabeth and vanish into a state office building somewhere. That should be pretty uncontroversial IMO.

Even if he got himself employed in Red Cross, that could at some point be controversial! Simply because relief organizations are also political.

Nikolai could choose to be educated and then work abroad, at least for a period of time. If he decided to, for example, go to school in the UK and then establish a career in the US he could do whatever he wanted. Of course he’d still benefit from being a part of a very well connected and privileged family but he wouldn’t stick out as much as he would in Denmark and he’d be able to build a career without the scrutiny he’d get at home.

I think minor royals can be in somewhat of a tough spot because, while part of what makes the idea of a royal family have enduring appeal with the public is the FAMILY aspect, the same public has no desire to support a large number of working royals. So you serve your purpose as a cute child and teenager contributing to the happy image of the family but once you’re an adult you’re seen as more of a potential burden and you need to watch your step.

The best thing for most royal families, IMO, would be to not only limit the number of working royals, but decrease the number of people in the family who are royal to start with. Much like how in some royal families only sons of the monarch can pass their royal status on to their children, except instead of sons I would say only the heir’s children are royal. So, for the current DRF only Christian’s future children should be Prince/Princess. The children of Christian’s siblings and cousins should either not be royal, (if the law can be changed), or not use the royal title, (if the law cannot be changed).

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by camelot23ca

Nikolai could choose to be educated and then work abroad, at least for a period of time. If he decided to, for example, go to school in the UK and then establish a career in the US he could do whatever he wanted. Of course he’d still benefit from being a part of a very well connected and privileged family but he wouldn’t stick out as much as he would in Denmark and he’d be able to build a career without the scrutiny he’d get at home.

I think minor royals can be in somewhat of a tough spot because, while part of what makes the idea of a royal family have enduring appeal with the public is the FAMILY aspect, the same public has no desire to support a large number of working royals. So you serve your purpose as a cute child and teenager contributing to the happy image of the family but once you’re an adult you’re seen as more of a potential burden and you need to watch your step.

The best thing for most royal families, IMO, would be to not only limit the number of working royals, but decrease the number of people in the family who are royal to start with. Much like how in some royal families only sons of the monarch can pass their royal status on to their children, except instead of sons I would say only the heir’s children are royal. So, for the current DRF only Christian’s future children should be Prince/Princess. The children of Christian’s siblings and cousins should either not be royal, (if the law can be changed), or not use the royal title, (if the law cannot be changed).

I think you nailed it.

And yes, I think working abroad is a good option, as long as he doesn't get himself involved in something stupid. Out of sight, out of mind. - But of course that means a de facto exile.

[Duc_et_Pair]

No need to look down to Komtesses versus Grevindes. A Komtesse is actually maybe "better" than a Grevinde. After all, the last one usually is "just" the wife of a Greve, while a Komtesse is always a daughter of a Greve and therefore a born aristocrat lady by herself.

In Dutch and German we had the same difference in married and unmarried nobles. A jonker (junker in German) and a freule (junkfrau in German) were used to differentiate in marital status. Like a Komtesse is always the daughter of a Greve, a freule could never be anyone else than a noble's daughter.

[Kataryn]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

No need to look down to Komtesses versus Grevindes. A Komtesse is actually maybe "better" than a Grevinde. After all, the last one usually is "just" the wife of a Greve, while a Komtesse is always a daughter of a Greve and therefore a born aristocrat lady by herself.

In Dutch and German we had the same difference in married and unmarried nobles. A jonker (junker in German) and a freule (junkfrau in German) were used to differentiate in marital status. Like a Komtesse is always the daughter of a Greve, a freule could never be anyone else than a noble's daughter.

Sorry, but a "Jungfrau" is not a noble young lady, but any girl who hasn't had sex yet.. Or someone who astrologically is born in the sign of virgo (Jungfrau).


But it's true, we had that before we got rid of nobility 100 years ago but let the former title live as part of the name. Though normally women of noble name prefer the married version for their own name, not the former title for an unmarried noble woman. EG: not Baroness or Freiin but Baronin or Freifrau, not Komtess but Gräfin. Only the daughters of princes (Fürsten) stick to Prinzessin (Princess) while the daughters of dukes always used duchess even when unwed daughters.

[wartenberg7]

Originally Posted by Kataryn

Sorry, but a "Jungfrau" is not a noble young lady, but any girl who hasn't had sex yet.. Or someone who astrologically is born in the sign of virgo (Jungfrau).


But it's true, we had that before we got rid of nobility 100 years ago but let the former title live as part of the name. Though normally women of noble name prefer the married version for their own name, not the former title for an unmarried noble woman. EG: not Baroness or Freiin but Baronin or Freifrau, not Komtess but Gräfin. Only the daughters of princes (Fürsten) stick to Prinzessin (Princess) while the daughters of dukes always used duchess even when unwed daughters.

What you mean is a virgin...
I think Duc meant the female version of "Junker" - and I think it is not "Jungfrau", but "Junkfrau"...?!

[Kataryn]

Originally Posted by wartenberg7

What you mean is a virgin...
I think Duc meant the female version of "Junker" - and I think it is not "Jungfrau", but "Junkfrau"...?!

Originally "Junker" meant "unmarried young nobleman", according to the Duden, "Junkfrau" is not an official German word. The word "Junker" was used in a demeaning way in the former East parts of Prussia, so if the word was ever in use, it was demeaning to the noble lady.

[Muhler]

Well, in DK at least in the early 1700s "jomfru" = jungfrau = maiden was a polite form of address to or about a young woman. Certainly among affluent farmers and merchants. Implying that she as a matter of course was assumed to be virtuous.
Whether that in higher society at the time was cringe worthy I don't know.

[JR76]

Originally Posted by Muhler

Well, in DK at least in the early 1700s "jomfru" = jungfrau = maiden was a polite form of address to or about a young woman. Certainly among affluent farmers and merchants. Implying that she as a matter of course was assumed to be virtuous.
Whether that in higher society at the time was cringe worthy I don't know.

Same in Sweden up until early 1800s. Young unwed women were called jungfru or piga (which later came to be the word for maid). Unwed ladies of the merchant class were often called mamsell especially as they got on in years.

Regarding komtesse Sweden has the quite interesting custom that unwed daughters of titled noblemen are fröken (miss) and it's not until they marry another noble that they can start using their title if their husband is of a lower rank. The daughter of a Count Lewenhaupt who married a Baron Thott or a Herr (Mr) Rosenkrantz could choose to go by Countess Thott or Countess Rosenkrantz.

[Kataryn]

Originally Posted by Muhler

Well, in DK at least in the early 1700s "jomfru" = jungfrau = maiden was a polite form of address to or about a young woman. Certainly among affluent farmers and merchants. Implying that she as a matter of course was assumed to be virtuous.
Whether that in higher society at the time was cringe worthy I don't know.

Did you see the French movie "Michael Kohlhaas" with Mads Mikkelsen as Kohlhaas? In the original novella by Heinrich von Kleist, two young noblemen are the villains who asked for a permit of passage from Kohlhaas, the horse merchant, and then mistreated his horses so Kohlhaas tried to get them to pay damages but the justice system preferred the nobility and then hell broke loose... These two young men are named "Junker" Hinz and Kunz of Tronka. Today (and back then) in German the phrase "Hinz und Kunz" meant: "everybody", because so many men were named Hinz (short for Heinrich, losts of emperors) and Kunz (short for Konrad, equally noble name used so very often back then). Von Kleist used their names and their status to describe them in a demeaning way, it could have happened anywhere in a confrontation between nobility and non-noble bourgeoisie (Kohlhaas was quite rich and successful, but was stioll denied his right because he was not noble).
The French movie changed a lot of things, though but that was the basis of the story.


As for the young unwed daughters of the nobility called "Fräulein" - maybe those from the lower nobility. But there is of course the famous quote from "Faust" by Goethe when Gretchen replies to Faust's compliments: "Bin weder Fräulein noch bin ich schön, kann unbegleitet nach Hause gehen". (Am neither a Fräulein nor am I beautiful, don't need an escort to go home".