Prince Joachim and Princess Marie, Current Events Part 5: August 2013 -

[Muhler]

Well, I do have a slight advantage over you, being a middle-aged man myself, and knowing, quite naturally, a number of middle-aged men - and their problems as well as their positive moments.
And having a son, almost your age, I have a slight idea of what his generation think as well. They are not that different from my generation, except that they are much more considerate and flexible. But the macho-man bravado is still alive and well and we should perhaps be thankful for that. I suspect most of you women would find it pretty dull in the long run to live in a relationship with a male-girlfriend. - But that of course is a question you can answer better than me.
Okay, enough pocket philosophy. Let's go back to the core of this issue:

I do not understand why Joachim must explain, even apologize(?) to the public.
He hasn't done anything wrong.

The only crimes he is guilty of are:
A) Getting divorced from a (back then) extremely popular woman.
B) Selling Schackenborg and getting a good deal.
C) Not being seen so much on the job for the DRF for the past few years.
D) And - and now I might be provocative - he is guilty of the unpardonable crime of remarrying and finding happiness again...

Regarding A: People do get divorced, also royals. Even royals have a right to privacy, it's really not our business why their marriage didn't last.
Nor is it a crime to go on a binge or two after a divorce - in fact I would call that pretty sane behavior.
Joachim don't, nor Alexandra for that matter, owe us an explanation, nor an apology.

B) Schackenborg was Joachim's private property. It happens people have to sell their business and even home. It was Joachim's right to sell the manor. And it really isn't our business to know why. It's no crime either to tell a perhaps secondary side of the truth at first.
Joachim disappointed many Southern Jutlanders who appreciated a permanent DRF presence there, but selling because you can't make ends meet in the long is no crime. Not even morally wrong.
Nor is it a crime to get friends to help bail you out, so that you get out with a very good deal. It's not even morally wrong, because who would say no?

C) Now that's where we can agree. Joachim hasn't exactly been seen doing that much work for the DRF lately - and that's where my speculations come in.
But not working much is no crime either. There is no law or rule saying how much you must work to earn an apanage. He doesn't even have to formally explain himself.
We can debate as to whether it's reasonable for a Joachim to receiving an apanage of an X amount considering the work he does for the DRF. But he still don't owe us an explanation.

D) Is my little cynical pet-theory, that some people have decided not to like Joachim. And that applies to those who feel it applies to them. (In DK: Til de der føler sig truffet.)

Yes, the recent interviews were most illuminating. I read with great interest and appreciation Joachim's reflections over his life and admitting, accepting and standing by, what he had done wrong. That's a positive thing.
And while I agree that Joachim and Alexandra have handed not only their divorce but also the upbringing of their children admirably I don't think we should discount our Marie.
In fact I suspect, I strongly suspect, that she had a pretty large role to play when Nikolai left the military. I think she was instrumental in soothing daddy Joachim's disappointment (because I'm convinced he would have been less than pleased with Nikolai's decision!) and making him realize it was the best thing for his son. - The outcome was after all given anyway. Nikolai had left the military and (IMO) sought refuge with his understanding mother. But reconciling father and son so quickly and fully may not have been a given thing.
In the interviews Joachim time and time again expressed his admiration and respect for Marie and it is very clear to me that he listens, when she speaks - in whatever way she presents the message...
It is of course a qualified speculation from my side, but I think we should not underestimate Marie and her role behind the scenes.

[Somebody]

Thanks for your very interesting conversation. Interesting to read such different points of view from two Danes.

I would add (or agree) that Joachim indeed does not have to explain himself to the public -except for breaching the law by taking his apansge to France without asking permission; he should have asked and imo it should have been granted for this year- but that his repuation seems to be a logical consequence of his decisions and his way of behaving himself. If he would want the public opinion to change it is up to him to change his ways instead of expecting the people to miraculously turn around while he is too proud to make a step in their direction.

And of course, in all of this he should consider the impact his decisions may have on the DRF. That's part of the burden that comes with all the privileges of royal life. Given his sense of duty, I am sure he's aware of that

[Muhler]

You are welcome.

And since this is so very much about perceptions and speculation, your opinion is as valid as mine or Archduchess Zelias.

- On another note. As you know Joachim will be going to France to attend a staff course.
Alternative European alliances are shooting up rapidly now. Outside and independent of both NATO and USA. Not least with France in the lead, within EU certainly.
DK is already working closely with Britain and France and now a new alliance is forming.
There is a majority for DK to join an navy alliance to ensure free sailing for merchant ships through the Strait of Hormuz. That is only natural since DK is the fifth largest merchant shipping nation in the world, after Panama, Greece, China (I can't remember the fourth nation off hand.)
That navy presence will work independent of USA and NATO and hopefully without being involved in any shooting match between USA and Iran.
That means one or two major Danish ships can be in place as early as in four weeks.
- Just a little FYI to consider.

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by Muhler

You are welcome.

And since this is so very much about perceptions and speculation, your opinion is as valid as mine or Archduchess Zelias.

- On another note. As you know Joachim will be going to France to attend a staff course.
Alternative European alliances are shooting up rapidly now. Outside and independent of both NATO and USA. Not least with France in the lead, within EU certainly.
DK is already working closely with Britain and France and now a new alliance is forming.
There is a majority for DK to join an navy alliance to ensure free sailing for merchant ships through the Strait of Hormuz. That is only natural since DK is the fifth largest merchant shipping nation in the world, after Panama, Greece, China (I can't remember the fourth nation off hand.)
That navy presence will work independent of USA and NATO and hopefully without being involved in any shooting match between USA and Iran.
That means one or two major Danish ships can be in place as early as in four weeks.
- Just a little FYI to consider.

I am not sure how this would change my opinion that it's totally fine for Joachim to take this course, take his apanage with him (after he asks for and is granted approval!), and return to Denmark afterwards or make a different decision and in that case have his (financial) arrangement reevaluated

You surely are not trying to convince me it's a really bad idea for him to take this course because of all of the above - unless your argument would be that a prince should not be involved in such (international) political issues (which would make some sense)

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by Somebody

I am not sure how this would change my opinion that it's totally fine for Joachim to take this course, take his apanage with him (after he asks for and is granted approval!), and return to Denmark afterwards or make a different decision and in that case have his (financial) arrangement reevaluated

You surely are not trying to convince me it's a really bad idea for him to take this course because of all of the above - unless your argument would be that a prince should not be involved in such (international) political issues (which would make some sense)

No. the last bit was just a general FYI for all.

As for Joachim's course: On the contrary. I think it's good thing that he attends this course - not least in the light of the various European military alliances that are not only emerging, but becoming more and more permanent.
Without going too much into international politics in the last few years, it's no secret that there has been serious doubts as to whether the NATO alliance is that solid anymore. And whether NATO can even be relied on, in all circumstances anymore.
There has also been a discussion as well as an emerging transition towards Europe, if need be, standing on it's own and also focusing militarily and politically towards a more aggressive and hands-on approach in the regions close to Europe (not least North Africa) - without involving USA directly or at all.
The arms industry in Europe is not that displeased, because the increased defense spendings should, they hope and believe, result in more orders for European manufactured equipment, rather than expensive imports from USA. That applies especially to France, which is taking the lead in the European military independent endeavors.
It is most interesting!
- That of course means it's very much in Danish interests to develop close relations with top French military officers, security political advisors and so on. As well as it being in French interests to cultivate connections with their new allies. DK certainly not being the only one.

It is in that light I posted the FYI.

[Archduchess Zelia]

Originally Posted by Muhler

(...)

Alive, sure; well is debatable – it's been under some healthy scrutiny for the past couple of years; but definitely not the overshadowing ideal it once was. Now, I am most definitely not the right gal to comment on questions like that. But if I was, I definitely wouldn't equate a man who rests in himself with being dull. Additionally, I think that a relationship with a man who deliberately doesn't show emotions or is willing to admit his own mistakes for the sole reason that he is a big manly man sounds insufferable.

It has never been my argument that Joachim should apologise to anyone. Our discussion was initiated on the subject of the PR disaster that is his move to France and subsequently the public's (ill) perception of Joachim. My argument is that the Joachim's as well as the court's general lack of openness and transparency combined with the arrogance with which Joachim and the court have treated the press and the general public is largely to blame for the common opinion of him.

I think we have established by now that you and I strongly disagree on Joachim's missteps and how harshly they should be judged, so again, I feel like I would just be repeating myself by counterarguing your (in my opinion, silly) statement about how he hasn't done anything wrong and I really don't feel like doing that. What you have listed are the only issues you perceive to be palpable offences of his. Most of which are heavily over-simplified in order to push this victim narrative you've got going on regarding Joachim.

Do I think he should somehow apologise for all the times he has cocked up? Again, absolutely not, but I do think he should be held accountable for them – especially when your argument is that the general public is to blame for the bad rep he has gotten.

Definitely agree about Marie though (at least we agree on something ). She, like Alexandra, is a golden asset. (And my frustrations regarding Joachim don't extend to her at all – on the contrary, it annoys me that Joachim's poor decision-making often ends up reflecting badly on her too). I also agree about her role in making things run smoother regarding Nikolai dropping out of the military – Joachim said it himself, Marie knew it was the wrong decision for him all along. If only Joachim had bothered listening to her

[Archduchess Zelia]

Originally Posted by Somebody

Thanks for your very interesting conversation. Interesting to read such different points of view from two Danes.

I would add (or agree) that Joachim indeed does not have to explain himself to the public -except for breaching the law by taking his apansge to France without asking permission; he should have asked and imo it should have been granted for this year- but that his repuation seems to be a logical consequence of his decisions and his way of behaving himself. If he would want the public opinion to change it is up to him to change his ways instead of expecting the people to miraculously turn around while he is too proud to make a step in their direction.

And of course, in all of this he should consider the impact his decisions may have on the DRF. That's part of the burden that comes with all the privileges of royal life. Given his sense of duty, I am sure he's aware of that

Exactly. And that's why the argument that the public is somehow singlehandedly to blame for having a fixed opinion on Joachim while he himself does little to nothing to actively change that (and contrarily keeps pulling moronic behaviour such as failing to abide by the constitution) is so redundant.

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by Archduchess Zelia

Alive, sure; well is debatable – it's been under some healthy scrutiny for the past couple of years; but definitely not the overshadowing ideal it once was. Now, I am most definitely not the right gal to comment on questions like that. But if I was, I definitely wouldn't equate a man who rests in himself with being dull. Additionally, I think that a relationship with a man who deliberately doesn't show emotions or is willing to admit his own mistakes for the sole reason that he is a big manly man sounds insufferable.

It has never been my argument that Joachim should apologise to anyone. Our discussion was initiated on the subject of the PR disaster that is his move to France and subsequently the public's (ill) perception of Joachim. My argument is that the Joachim's as well as the court's general lack of openness and transparency combined with the arrogance with which Joachim and the court have treated the press and the general public is largely to blame for the common opinion of him.

I think we have established by now that you and I strongly disagree on Joachim's missteps and how harshly they should be judged, so again, I feel like I would just be repeating myself by counterarguing your (in my opinion, silly) statement about how he hasn't done anything wrong and I really don't feel like doing that. What you have listed are the only issues you perceive to be palpable offences of his. Most of which are heavily over-simplified in order to push this victim narrative you've got going on regarding Joachim.

Do I think he should somehow apologise for all the times he has cocked up? Again, absolutely not, but I do think he should be held accountable for them – especially when your argument is that the general public is to blame for the bad rep he has gotten.

Definitely agree about Marie though (at least we agree on something ). She, like Alexandra, is a golden asset. (And my frustrations regarding Joachim don't extend to her at all – on the contrary, it annoys me that Joachim's poor decision-making often ends up reflecting badly on her too). I also agree about her role in making things run smoother regarding Nikolai dropping out of the military – Joachim said it himself, Marie knew it was the wrong decision for him all along. If only Joachim had bothered listening to her

Well, Joachim does show emotions. At least since our Marie entered his life.
Not showing emotions, especially in public, is a defining trait of a reserved man - and proud man. It makes you feel vulnerable.
It's nice to see him no longer being afraid to show when he is happy - or angry for that matter.
But it's difficult for a reserved person to open up. It's akin to forcing someone who suffer from social anxiety to take part in a party.

As we say in Danish: Joachim har sit væsen imod sig. = Something like: he is difficult to like.
And I do maintain that many have not tried to look closer at the man, but quickly dismissed him as arrogant and so on. And that's it! No changing of mind there.
Yet, Joachim did try and reach out to the public. Certainly in the latest interviews and he did get some public sympathy back. His mistake was not to follow up both in regards to his newfound openness and in finding a "cause" for himself. I had hoped he would help further the interests of veterans, something he showed an interest in when Harry came visiting a while back.
I guess it's because he doesn't have a PR-consultant - and hasn't asked one for advise either.

I should very much like to know what many mistakes Joachim has done, simply to get a better picture of what you mean. So far it's still pretty tenuous to me. And to be honest smells more like a general dislike.
Five-six examples will suffice.

I will agree with you that the DRF-PR machine has never been good at damage control. My guess is it's because the members of the DRF react (initially) like real human beings in regards to the press and the public, when there is a problem: It's none of their business!

I'm glad we can agree on Marie, she is a little gem! Easy to like and I think, easy to relate to as well? But she sure also have her detractors!
She and Joachim is really an example of opposites attract.

Well, no matter who is to blame on Joachim's bad rep, (which is a pity because he is really a genuinely interesting man to listen to) and think we and the DRF should praise ourselves lucky that Frederik has the enviable trait of being able to come across as likable and that he is so good at person-to-person relations, i.e. being folksy.

Oh, FYI.
I trust Archduchess Zelia will agree with me when I say that we are not fighting. We are merely having a normal frank discussion.
A discussion that I think would be even more frank were we sitting face to face.

[Muhler]

Caroline Fleming, who has rented J&M's house, will be moving in from today.

That means J&M have now relocated to Paris.

https://www.billedbladet.dk/kendte/n...s-joachims-hus

[Kataryn]

Originally Posted by Muhler

I trust Archduchess Zelia will agree with me when I say that we are not fighting. We are merely having a normal frank discussion.
A discussion that I think would be even more frank were we sitting face to face.

But then we wouldn't understand you because you would discuss in Danish... I much prefer this conversation here.

[rob2008]

They will have a good time in France. They seem a contented family who represent contemporary family life well and in a happy way. There are good relations with Alexandra and all 4 children seem to integrate positively. J & M are good parents bringing them up well. Paris will add to the experiences and richness of family life.

[Archduchess Zelia]

Originally Posted by Muhler

Well, Joachim does show emotions. At least since our Marie entered his life (...)

I don't define opening up only to whine about how the public "has decided" that he's to be the family scapegoat as "reaching out" to the public. Den anden prins, the documentary, is a great example of this. Sure, he opens up in that – and I think that really suits him – but he then also goes on to imply that the public are the assholes because they don't bother to understand him and that's two steps forward and one step back. And it's definitely not gonna make the relationship between him and the public less tense. You can't ask the public to be more understanding if you don't give them the necessary information for them to understand you. I agree that it's a shame he didn't jump at the opportunity but that just brings me back to my point: He only has himself (and the court's poor communications department) to blame for the public's perception of him.

Since you seemingly refuse to read my past replies to you, his mistakes include: 1. Being about as snappy towards reporters as his dad's dachshunds. That's never gonna win him points with anyone. And down that same alley: 2. Refusing to answer questions if he's not styled correctly. That's just petty. Sure, he's right that technically people should address him with a formal you, but it's a bad look that barely goes when you're QMII and definitely doesn't go when your brother (who's higher up the line of succession) doesn't give a hoot about whether or not the plebs say "du" or "De" to him. I also think this is a large part of the reason people perceive him as being arrogant. 3. His minimal work effort. He routinely does the barest of minimum. 4. The Schackenborg mess. From the sale – sure, we all wanna make a good deal but in his position, it was perhaps not the wisest decision to make – to moaning about the press "lying" about his motives for moving to Copenhagen even though the press was only relaying what the court had written in the press release. 5. His history of moaning in general. It's never pretty when you can't admit your mistakes without a need to point fingers at others in the same go. Just take the loss, my dude. Additionally, with his history, the scapegoat narrative just doesn't hold. As I've said before, everyone makes mistakes, sure, but there will a limit as to how many times the public will forgive you. 6. His job with the military. A disaster. It's a part-time job frequently used to excuse the aforementioned poor work ethic but it's somehow impossible to get any sort of insight into how many hours he actually spends on it. And if he actually does spend a good portion of time in this position, surely it wouldn't be difficult for the court to lay these figures forward? 7. Failing to seek permission to take his apanage out of the country. Unconstitutional and as such, doesn't really need further explanation.

And those were just his biggest mistakes off the top of my head. Don't think I've been unreasonable. In return, I guess I could argue that you find mistakes other than the (downplayed) ones you mentioned in your previous post tenuous because you're dead set on defending him

I mean, yes, the DRF themselves would react that way but surely, that's why they have a communications department. To ensure situations that need damage control will be handled professionally. The DRF have one of the most incompetent communications departments. Instead of easing relations to the press and the public, they seem intent on making things harder than they are. And when you combine that kind of incompetence with someone a royal who also has a lot of shortcomings in their relations with the public, that's a disastrous pairing.

Marie is very likeable and very... umiddelbar (too knackered to think of an English equivalent). I was quite indifferent about her until I saw the moment in Kongehuset Indefra where she talked about how important it was for her to learn Danish to be able to speak with every Dane she met That's when she won my heart. And seeing her with Nikolai and Felix of course. As for detractors, I guess there'll always be a handful of morons but I'm not under the impression that it's super bad? Maybe I just move in the wrong (well in this case, the right ) circles.

About Frederik, true, but I also think that if Joachim had been the elder of the two, he would've been forced to change his ways. In this day and age, petulance is just not a viable quality in a future monarch (something I think certain other future monarchs will learn the hard way).

[Muhler]

Thank you, Archduchess Zelia.

It was most illuminating and I think you illustrated my points better than I could possibly do.

I also think we can safely agree on disagreeing.

Just one thing though.
As you recall Frederik had a job teaching at the Defense Academy (staff school) and we never learned how many hours he put in there.
And there was Mary's job at Microsoft when she first came to DK.
At least Joachim is seen out and about in uniform from time to time...

[Archduchess Zelia]

Originally Posted by Muhler

Thank you, Archduchess Zelia.

It was most illuminating and I think you illustrated my points better than I could possibly do.

I also think we can safely agree on disagreeing.

Just one thing though.
As you recall Frederik had a job teaching at the Defense Academy (staff school) and we never learned how many hours he put in there.
And there was Mary's job at Microsoft when she first came to DK.
At least Joachim is seen out and about in uniform from time to time...

And I think I illustrated why your points are one-sided

Admittedly, I know little details about a position Frederik held in 2002. (After all, I was only 8 back then.) One could, however, argue that since he was a great deal younger then than Joachim was in 2015 and that he assumed the position in extension of his own education at Forsvarsakademiet, it's difficult to compare the two cases. But indeed, if the position was used as the go-to excuse for a poor work ethic from Frederik and the court refused the press insight into the amount of hours he put into it, I think it's as outrageous as Joachim's case.

As for Mary's job with Microsoft I mean, come on now, comparing a position she held prior to her officially becoming a member of the family to the mess that's been Joachim's position with the military? Are you saying there's no difference between what private citizens and members of a tax-payer funded institution should disclose to the public? I hope you stretched before that reach, Muhler

[Muhler]

Easy now, You are the one who consistently complain about Joachim having a Mickey Mouse job - little show, little work.
I'm merely pointing out that M&F can be (and were) accused of the same thing.

And calling his job a mess is, I think, a most dramatic description, that I dare say says more about your point of view than Joachim.

Our long discussion has left me with the clear impression that you have decided you don't like Joachim, ergo he can do no right. And you are deliberately looking for things to support that view.
In your posts you have rarely tried to look behind the picture, to look closer at the man, to use the questions: Why is it that Joachim? Could it be that? Instead you conclude that Joachim is lazy, is arrogant, is a mess and so - with just as little, if not less, factual basis than you accuse me of having.
That is - unfortunately - a very common view of Joachim.

And like I stated in my previous post, you have illustrated that point admirably.

Joachim is a human being with good sides as well as well as bad sides. But at least he is trying to work on it, but if he is not given a chance that is doomed to fail.
He is a real live human being with feelings. He may not like/be comfortable with showing his innermost feelings (even though in later years he has learned to open up), he may not be good at expressing his feelings and they may come out in an awkward way, whatever. But he has tried.
Try look at him as a human being, rather than a figure. (That comes across better in Danish: Prøv at se på ham som et menneske, snarere end en person.)

Like most human beings his life is one continuous development.
Joachim ten years ago was not the Joachim twenty years ago. Joachim ten years ago is not the same Joachim as today.
A little example: At the Classic Races Joachim have in recent years posed for private photos with members of the public. Joachim twenty years ago wouldn't have dreamed about that. He took his position way too serious to allow that. Today he has learned, no doubt inspired by M&F, that perhaps it doesn't hurt.

I know you will find this dreadfully patronizing, but here we go: I'm twice your age and if there is something those extra years have taught me, it's to put on the nuanced glasses and try look at people from different angles.
Sometimes I fail to do that, sometimes my prejudices are confirmed and sometimes I learn something about that person.

You may be right: Joachim is an arrogant, lazy enough-said. - I honestly don't believe that. But at least I can look at myself in the mirror and say I genuinely gave him the benefit of doubt.
Can you do the same? - Yes, that was rhetorical question better answered in front of your mirror.

Follow up.

Okay, let's look at the examples you came up with at the top of your head:

Since you seemingly refuse to read my past replies to you, his mistakes include: 1. Being about as snappy towards reporters as his dad's dachshunds. That's never gonna win him points with anyone. And down that same alley: 2. Refusing to answer questions if he's not styled correctly. That's just petty. Sure, he's right that technically people should address him with a formal you, but it's a bad look that barely goes when you're QMII and definitely doesn't go when your brother (who's higher up the line of succession) doesn't give a hoot about whether or not the plebs say "du" or "De" to him. I also think this is a large part of the reason people perceive him as being arrogant. 3. His minimal work effort. He routinely does the barest of minimum. 4. The Schackenborg mess. From the sale – sure, we all wanna make a good deal but in his position, it was perhaps not the wisest decision to make – to moaning about the press "lying" about his motives for moving to Copenhagen even though the press was only relaying what the court had written in the press release. 5. His history of moaning in general. It's never pretty when you can't admit your mistakes without a need to point fingers at others in the same go. Just take the loss, my dude. Additionally, with his history, the scapegoat narrative just doesn't hold. As I've said before, everyone makes mistakes, sure, but there will a limit as to how many times the public will forgive you. 6. His job with the military. A disaster. It's a part-time job frequently used to excuse the aforementioned poor work ethic but it's somehow impossible to get any sort of insight into how many hours he actually spends on it. And if he actually does spend a good portion of time in this position, surely it wouldn't be difficult for the court to lay these figures forward? 7. Failing to seek permission to take his apanage out of the country. Unconstitutional and as such, doesn't really need further explanation.

1 & 2) Being snappy towards reporters. - Well, some of them sure can be rude or provocative!
I can well imagine reporters deliberately addressing him with first name only and informal you, when he's on the job.
Frederik either don't care or simply ignore it.
But there is no excuse for the reporters! It ain't rocket science addressing people correctly. They are professionals not random members of the public who don't know better or get it wrong.
It's like in the military: You salute the rank, not the man. But some reporters have big problems with that.
- To that I will add: Big deal.

3) His current work load. He works only minimum, you say. - Okay, do you have any figures? I don't.
So your claim he is lazy is based on... very little.

4) The Schackenborg sale. It was the second huge defeat in his life. - Sure, in the glaring light of hindsight and comfortably sitting in our chairs we could all do a much better job in handling the PR.
To expect a man, even a royal, to be fully in control, even fully rational in that situation is to expect him to be superhuman.
Try understand the man and his situation before pointing your finger.

5) He moans you say, all the time seemingly. - Forgive me, but I don't recall Joachim moaning.
You first accuse him of not being open about his doings and happenings in his life, and when he is, he moans.

6) You call his military job a disaster. And you are qualified to say that because you graduated from the officer's academy in... when was it?
You served in the military, when? You have worked for the military? At least you served as a conscript, right?
Yet, despite his glaring shortcomings he is now to attend one of the most prestigious higher staff officer's academies in the world.
A disaster indeed!

7) His apanage.
The Constitution says: § 11. For medlemmer af det kongelige hus kan der bestemmes årpenge ved lov. Årpengene kan ikke uden folketingets samtykke nydes uden for riget.
§ 11. For members of the DRF an apanage can be granted by law. The apanage cannot, without the approval of Parliament, be granted (while residing) outside the realm.
- The key-words being: Without the approval of the Parliament.
Because the government and the Parliament were not aware that Joachim is going to France for a year? Are you trying to tell me that it has only now dawned on the 179 MP's that: Joachim is going to France?!? He didn't say! And
he is taking his apanage with him?!? And we can't do anything about it...
There are admittedly times when I question the abilities of our esteemed politicians, but in this case I think it's more likely they have allowed him to keep his apanage while he is in France at school. - What happens if his stay becomes more permanent is of course another matter.

- So to sum: If that's the best you can come up with, then I stand by the impression I have that this is more about a personal dislike of Joachim.

[Isabelle de France]

I read your comments with interest Muhler...
I think Frédéric's fans like the "fairy-tale people" facade of this charming prince who makes young girls dream... he is handsome, he found his sleeping beauty, he has an easy life whose made people dream about...
Joachim has from the start had the ungrateful role of the second who have to disappear in front of his brother, even if he is more serious and more responsible... so that the fairy tale continues, so that F and M fans keep dreaming, it is necessary that Frederick and his family are adorned with all the qualities and that Joachim and his family are the "villains" in this story...
I remember how Marie was welcomed in Denmark and the critics she was overwhelmed at the beginning...
I think unfortunately that Joachim will always be poorly considered whatever he does... and I'm sorry because I think he's a good person... and nobody (except you) wants to see him...
sorry my english is bad...

[Muhler]

Thank you.

Your English is fine
And your opinion is of course just as valid as anyone else's and just as welcome. Especially as I think mine and Archduchess Zelia's views are very clear by now.

Yes, our Marie got a good deal of criticism, certainly for the first few years. Perhaps not so much in the press as among royal watchers.

And so did Mary for the first couple of years. She had to live up to a formidable ex-sister-in-law, Alexandra.
And as you all know, there are still people out there who are determined to believe the worst about Mary.

[maria-olivia]

I love this thread because it is a real Discussion and not instagrams etc..

I am really looking forward Joachim starting his new Job in France with High level Militaires , who attend their high post because of their Bravure and not because their Mother is Queen of Denmark.

Will he be in Denmark with Unifirm and Medals for the Offficial Visit of the President Trump ?

[Isabelle de France]

Originally Posted by Muhler

Thank you.

And so did Mary for the first couple of years. She had to live up to a formidable ex-sister-in-law, Alexandra.
And as you all know, there are still people out there who are determined to believe the worst about Mary.

I only read rave reviews about Mary, Danish people seem to value her a lot...
as for Alexandra, if she was so much esteemed, the divorce with Joachim was probably very badly lived by Danish people and can parthy explain their resentment towards him...

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by maria-olivia

Will he be in Denmark with Unifirm and Medals for the Offficial Visit of the President Trump ?

Don't think so. That must be around the start of his course, so I don't think he would want to miss any classes at that time.
And I don't think our Marie will go to DK, for a gala evening either. Their children will need to settle in first, before Marie can be away. - They won't see much of their dad six days a week.