Prince Joachim and Princess Marie, Current Events Part 5: August 2013 -

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by polyesco

I guess we will see what happens after the one year. But certainly they should go the expense account route if they plan to live abroad more than 1 year.
If they do decide to live abroad permently, would that affect Henrik and Athena's being in the line of sussesion and not being raised/schooling in Denmark?

The short and sweet answer is no.

Anyway, both Nikolai and Felix would come before them.

- After all there is always the risk to consider that the DRF will have to go into exile for a number of years. Be that due to an occupation or a military coup.
Drawing on the experiences of both the DRF and NRF during WWII and the GRF during the junta.
So having a condition saying those in the Line of Succession must be raised and schooled in DK is a risk. Not least during the Cold War, where DK was expected to have been overrun by Poles and East Germans no latter than D+9. - By then key members of the government and the DRF would have been evacuated.
- In fact DK would have been very radioactive within the first day or two, but that's another story.

However, in the first couple of years after WWII and before NATO was formed there was a genuine fear of an attempt of a Communist takeover, resulting in civil war and perhaps foreign interventions. Again meaning that members of the DRF would be forced into exile.

[maria-olivia]

No State Visit of President Macron to Denmark , no military training for prince Joachim.

Will he be working as The Queen of Denmark's Son ?

He will work with militaires who are much higher than "Colonel".

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by maria-olivia

No State Visit of President Macron to Denmark .

He already made a State visit to Denmark in summer last year.

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by Stefan

He already made a State visit to Denmark in summer last year.

I think Maria-Olivia's post needs to be read as 'had there been no state visit of president Macron to Denmark, there would have been no military training (in France) for prince Joachim'

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by maria-olivia

No State Visit of President Macron to Denmark , no military training for prince Joachim.

Will he be working as The Queen of Denmark's Son ?

He will work with militaires who are much higher than "Colonel".

Hmm, difficult to say.
But let us make one thing quite clear, Prince or not, QMII's son or not, President Macron would not have extended an offer for Joachim to attend this advanced staff course, just out of the blue.
There would have been some soundings going on first.

To attend the course (and get the most out of it) you require someone who has French as second language or master French at a similar level.
Someone who is intelligent.
Someone who has experience in higher staff work.
Someone who has an in deep knowledge of French culture and interactions. Someone who understands French mindset, especially the more conservative mindset, you will often encounter within the military and some political circles.
Someone with a personal experience and understanding of how diplomacy and diplomatic representation on a medium to higher level works.
Someone who has enough personal pondus not to be easily intimidated. Joachim is after all a genuine Prince, who has met many heads of states and other influential people on all sorts of levels.
And finally someone who from a French viewpoint is worth cultivating. - Joachim has the ear of the Danish Defence Chief, the Danish head of state and if need be leading Danish politicians. Not to mention that he is personal friends with quite a few leading Danish businessmen. And all that will continue when Frederik becomes king.

So if you compare the list above with the qualifications of other Danish career officers, Joachim has a number of distinct advantages.
He does indeed also have a few shortcomings:
No independent command of his own. I.e. from battalion level and up.
No field experience abroad.
No "hot" staff experience (that we know of).

But this course is not about leading armies. This is about advising and briefing the general who leads armies in the best possible way. As well as the politicians who must decide what to do.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Somebody

I don't think it was included in the marriage conditions for Joachim and Marie unlike Benedikte's case in which her father made this a requirement for any children to be in line yo the throne.

My guess is that Queen Margrethe II did not impose a similar condition on her consent to Prince Joachim's marriages to foreign women because the vast majority of European royals still conform to the male-line tradition of the wife taking up residence in the husband's home country and not the other way around. Can anybody confirm/deny that?

[theroyalfly]

Prince Joachim joining the training in France will be beneficial to his current position in the Danish Defense since he is the Special Adviser to the Danish Chief of Defense in relation to the Reserve since 2015. In fact, he was invited by the French Minister of Defense following the French State Visit to Denmark last year.

The Prince is the first Danish officer to participate in this training.

It's also written on the announcement that this will not compromise both Prince Joachim and Princess Marie's patronages and partner organizations in Denmark.

If you haven't read it this is the link:

**Prince Joachim admitted to military training in France | The Danish Monarchy - Front Page

[ricarda]

Originally Posted by polyesco

I guess we will see what happens after the one year. But certainly they should go the expense account route if they plan to live abroad more than 1 year.
If they do decide to live abroad permently, would that affect Henrik and Athena's being in the line of sussesion and not being raised/schooling in Denmark?

Considering how little both Joachim and Marie work IMO they should go the expense account route in any case, no matter whether they live in Denmark or abroad.

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by ricarda

Considering how little both Joachim and Marie work IMO they should go the expense account route in any case, no matter whether they live in Denmark or abroad.

I think that is the best solution for all royals, PR-wise, once they have a secondary/supporting role. I.e. when there is a working heir, who has married and produced two off-springs.
That is Joachim, Harry, Madeleine and Carl Phillip and so on.

But while they (or their children) still have a realistic chance of taking over, either as regent or monarch, they should get an apanage or the equivalent of an apanage.

I believe the better solution (the best and most decent solution IMO would simply be to continue giving them a reasonable apanage/pension) could be to give Joachim a substantial sum for services rendered and for being a reserve for so many years, where there were very distinct limitations for the life he could have lived.
Then allow him to pursue his own happiness, while providing a pretty generous expense account for whatever work he will still be doing for the DRF.
In other words: Pension him off.

That will also officially make it clear that Joachim's children will have to make their own careers.

- I think it's a somewhat petty solution. After all, Joachim and those royals in a similar situation, didn't chose their parents and their life.
But in the petty age we live in, that could be a reasonable compromise.

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

My guess is that Queen Margrethe II did not impose a similar condition on her consent to Prince Joachim's marriages to foreign women because the vast majority of European royals still conform to the male-line tradition of the wife taking up residence in the husband's home country and not the other way around. Can anybody confirm/deny that?

That could be. If I'm not mistaken in the Danish pre-nups there are clear rules that the 'married-in' royal cannot take the children out of the country after a divorce. So, that seems to suggest that they are expected to grow up in Denmark - but apparently the Danish royal himself can take the family abroad .

[Archduchess Zelia]

Originally Posted by Muhler

It's a grey area, because Joachim attending the staff course is very much in Danish national interests, vis a vis the Danish-French military co-operation.
The personal contacts Joachim may develop are also in the national interest. Joachim being a genuine royal does help in that respect. And he is colonel in the army - on the job.
So you can argue that he is very much doing his job as a member of the DRF - working for Danish interests.

The problem is that this is difficult to explain to the public, because many people, especially those who dislike Joachim, cannot (or will not) fathom that being a royal can be more than cutting ribbons.

I choose not to read that as a suggestion that I think all royals do is cut ribbons

I think I just disagree that a potential international military career will have as big an impact as you think. At least not big enough to justify moving roughly 3.6 million DKK a year out of the country for several years. They do the bare minimum as it is and while getting the kind of contacts Joachim would be getting in an international military position definitely would be useful, I don't know that it's worth it. Especially not considering how such a relocation pretty much would take two active members of the royal family out in one go since Marie would have a very difficult time maintaining her current schedule while living in a different country. And even if it turns out I'm wrong, surely he'll be paid a substantial wage in a potential international military position, so only expenses to uphold their domestic engagements would have to be covered.

But I think it's unreasonable to write off the public as too dense to see the bigger picture. This all comes down to the court and their equal parts arrogant and incompetent way of dealing with any sort of inquiries into the DRF's actions. You can't blame the public for being unenlightened when the court continuously prove themselves unwilling to enlighten them. It's not rocket science. People draw their conclusions from what they see and what they hear. And if that is "well, actually Joachim and Marie's move is a PRIVATE matter and also we owe you nothing", then yes, it will be hard to fathom.

And that goes for the way the court seem to think they're somehow above the constitution by not following basic procedure, to the disservice they've done to Joachim by insisting his patronages won't be affected by the move. It's been implied the course requires attendance on six days of the week. By insinuating that his patronages won't even notice he's away – and knowing that by doing that, the press will now meticulously go through all his engagements for the coming year – they're setting him up for a failure before he's even started. This is just yet another example of the court making it much harder for themselves than it has to be.

[Muhler]

There has, unfortunately, been a "dumbing down" I think, of the work the royals do, in recent years.
Unless you actually follow the royals seriously on royal fora like this, or actually read the papers or watch the news, the alternative media who cover the royals, tend to over-simplify what the royals actually do, and why they do it and to what purpose.
It's way too often down to: what are Mary and Marie wearing?
QMII is somewhere waving at someone.
Joachim is doing some suit-stuff. Boring! And he's an arrogant pr*t anyway, so who cares?
Frederik is nice, running around on the streets and being tipsy at concerts. But all the serious stuff he is doing, gets little coverage.

That's what I mean when I say that many people can't fathom that royals may involve a lot more than just visiting refugee camps somewhere or cutting ribbons.
And too many have decided that they don't like Joachim, and that he is arrogant and a failure. So whatever he does is bad, period!
Don't know about you, but that's an (simplified) attitude I see and encounter quite often.

Then there is his apanage. Now, pettiness is not a trait I admire! I find it petty that he can't keep his apanage while serving his country in France. Come on! The man has devoted 50 years of his life to the DRF!
He never had the option to become a diplomat, or a race-driver or a firefighter for that matter.
He was told around ten years of age, that you are going to be a farmer, whether you are interested or not. And while doing that you are also required to spend time serving your country for the DRF. - And in return, you get... Well, not a lot of thanks, that's for sure!
So isn't 50 years of his life worth a couple of million DKK a year as a "pension"? I think so.

But no, no, let's be petty and strip him of his apanage. He can live of his colonel-salary (which isn't that big). And let us all agree, that no matter what he does, it will never, ever, be good enough.
So why shouldn't he go settle in France?
Depending on how you read one of his latest interviews, he has actually hinted that he puts the interests of his family first now. That is, before the DRF.
So I say, okay, give him a generous expense account. (Knowing perfectly well, that there will be a call for stripping him of that as well.)
Oh yes, the Jante-Law/tall poppy syndrome is alive and well.

I don't think we can blame the court for not informing the public well enough.
Firstly because that requires that some people want to listen.
Secondly because it probably hasn't been decided yet what will happen.
Joachim has finish the course, his children has to thrive in France, and he has to have something to do there as well. And that, a job in France or the NATO HQ, is not up to neither Joachim nor the DRF.

[gerry]

Originally Posted by Muhler

There has, unfortunately, been a "dumbing down" I think, of the work the royals do, in recent years.
Unless you actually follow the royals seriously on royal fora like this, or actually read the papers or watch the news, the alternative media who cover the royals, tend to over-simplify what the royals actually do, and why they do it and to what purpose.
It's way too often down to: what are Mary and Marie wearing?
QMII is somewhere waving at someone.
Joachim is doing some suit-stuff. Boring! And he's an arrogant pr*t anyway, so who cares?
Frederik is nice, running around on the streets and being tipsy at concerts. But all the serious stuff he is doing, gets little coverage.

That's what I mean when I say that many people can't fathom that royals may involve a lot more than just visiting refugee camps somewhere or cutting ribbons.
And too many have decided that they don't like Joachim, and that he is arrogant and a failure. So whatever he does is bad, period!
Don't know about you, but that's an (simplified) attitude I see and encounter quite often.

Then there is his apanage. Now, pettiness is not a trait I admire! I find it petty that he can't keep his apanage while serving his country in France. Come on! The man has devoted 50 years of his life to the DRF!
He never had the option to become a diplomat, or a race-driver or a firefighter for that matter.
He was told around ten years of age, that you are going to be a farmer, whether you are interested or not. And while doing that you are also required to spend time serving your country for the DRF. - And in return, you get... Well, not a lot of thanks, that's for sure!
So isn't 50 years of his life worth a couple of million DKK a year as a "pension"? I think so.

But no, no, let's be petty and strip him of his apanage. He can live of his colonel-salary (which isn't that big). And let us all agree, that no matter what he does, it will never, ever, be good enough.
So why shouldn't he go settle in France?
Depending on how you read one of his latest interviews, he has actually hinted that he puts the interests of his family first now. That is, before the DRF.
So I say, okay, give him a generous expense account. (Knowing perfectly well, that there will be a call for stripping him of that as well.)
Oh yes, the Jante-Law/tall poppy syndrome is alive and well.

I don't think we can blame the court for not informing the public well enough.
Firstly because that requires that some people want to listen.
Secondly because it probably hasn't been decided yet what will happen.
Joachim has finish the course, his children has to thrive in France, and he has to have something to do there as well. And that, a job in France or the NATO HQ, is not up to neither Joachim nor the DRF.

Thank you Muhler for your post. Your views are clear and explicitly stated and I could not agree more with your opinion that the apanage of Prince Joachim should continue whilst he represents Denmark and its interests in France, because that is exactly what he is doing. I see it as a diplomatic posting, no different from any civil servant representing his or her country abroad. I also think that Prince Joachim has found his métier as a military man; even though he trained as an agricultural technician, I believe (Schnakenborg?), clearly a life of drill and discipline is more up his alley! Bravo, Prince Joachim and I am certain that Papa Prince Henrik is watching with delight from his heavenly cloud

[Archduchess Zelia]

Originally Posted by Muhler

There has, unfortunately, been a "dumbing down" I think, of the work the royals do, in recent years (...)

I don't think I could disagree more if I tried, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree

But about the public perception of him: Joachim is almost entirely responsible for that himself. Sure, the tabloids add to it – just like the British tabloids like to pit Kate and Meghan against each other because drama sells, the Danish tabloids push a Frederik versus Joachim narrative which is absolutely ridiculous and also something people with a mind of their own should know is clickbait. But aside from that, Joachim can only blame himself (and the court's non-existent public relations department) for being perceived as the arrogant member of the family.

He routinely does what seems like the barest of minimum, consistently pulling some of the lowest numbers of engagements a year even when Henrik was still alive. It doesn't help his reputation that he isn't visible to the public because it leads a lot people to assume he's dispensable. Additionally, he's held a position with the military that exists almost entirely within a grey area. There's no real description of the specifics of this position and no one quite knows how much time it amounts to. When faced with the suggestion that it's a de facto position, the court refused to put forward the actual number of hours he spends in this position which otherwise would've been a fantastic way to shut down his critics. So when the court refuses to just be open with the public about it, it's not unnatural to assume it's because the actual figures aren't much more impressive than what has been implied in the tabloids. Either that or the court just has a disastrous way of dealing with criticism which inevitably ends up affecting Joachim's reputation. Either way, you can't blame the public for drawing conclusions based on whatever little information that's put forward to them. And you can say the exact same thing about the move to France.

Then there's the whole Schackenborg mess. He's not to blame for not being able to make it work, but for him to then subsequently moan about how he's been treated unfairly because of the move just isn't a good look. Say, the Berlingske interview he did back in 2017 where he said that it was untrue when the press implied that they sold because they wanted to move back to Copenhagen. That's in direct conflict with the very press release the court put out regarding the sale and subsequent move that explicitly mentioned that moving back to the Copenhagen area was a priority for them. I mean, why combat the press and the public on a perception that stems from a press release the court put out. Surely, if he disagrees with that, he should have a talk with the court instead of playing the victim card about how unfairly he's been treated by the press and the public?

Lastly, his pedanticism doesn't exactly help the public perception of him. I mean, sure, he has every right to refuse to answer a question if he's not styled correctly but 1. again, that wasn't even a good look on QMII and she's from a whole other generation than Joachim; and 2. when, say, your brother is the kind of person who just laughs something like that off, you don't have to be a PR genius to know that that's gonna make you look even worse in the public eye. He's not exactly helping his own image there.

I said it before and I'll happily reiterate. Writing members of the public who are critical of Joachim off people who are too dense to "get" the bigger picture is ignorant and unreasonable. In my opinion, it largely comes down to a mixture of decidedly poor communicative skills from the court and a lacking self-awareness on Joachim's behalf. The general public primarily caring about superficial elements of royalty isn't new. It's always been like that. And we royal watchers are often guilty of failing to understand that the vast majority of the public doesn't extensively read up on what goes on behind the scenes. Which means that the royals themselves (and their courts) have to be proactive in getting that out. Also, I know you're very fond of Joachim, Muhler, but let's not pretend that doesn't make you exactly as biased about him as those who are critical of him

About the apanage, again (surprise), I disagree. Not only has he absolutely had the opportunity to pull a Märtha Louise and live a life free of the seemingly very heavy burden of royalty but also I generally don't subscribe to the golden handshake logic of topping off years of apanage with a bonus for just being born into privilege. Call that petty if you will. Maybe once we stop persecuting the weakest members of our society trying to get by on their social security (less than a colonel-salary, I reckon ), I can work on feeling sorry for someone who's been born with a silver spoon in his mouth.

[Muhler]

Your input are always interesting, even though I doubt we shall ever agree on Joachim.

Let me start by making it clear. I respect Joachim a lot, but I doubt he and I would ever be friends.
Am I biased in regards to Joachim? Oh, yes. Often. And intentionally so.
And that's because Joachim is so often under attack and I like to see the other side of the coin. The other side of Joachim. - The side of him, so many choose to disregard or dismiss.
And I find that very unfair.

Joachim's major flaw IMO is that he is his mother's son. Like his mother he is very reserved (even though QMII has opened up a lot in recent years, but never too much) in contrast to Frederik Joachim sucks when it comes to interacting with Joe Public. So did his mother and even today she is still not that comfortable when small-talking to ordinary people. Frederik and PH are and were brilliant at that.
Frederik is very uncomfortable (even though he has improved a lot in recent years) when it's taking center stage and being "official". Joachim is very much at home in that role. Following a manuscript, being "official" that's where he feels at home.
Has it ever occurred to you that Joachim's "arrogance" could be down to a feeling of awkwardness? Of being shy? Of feeling out of his depth?
Just as his mother can be very stand-offish, if people get too close, Joachim also tends to raise his shields when he feels insecure. But his mother can get away with it, because she's the Monarch and because she is so respected.

Then there is the infamous story of Joachim dressing down a journalist. Did you ever see the full clip? It was shown on regional TV. The journalist was from Ekstra Bladet and he was very provocative! IMO he really deserved a broken nose. But that is not an option open to Joachim. So Joachim was guilty in being angry and trying to react in a civilized manner. And that backfired - big time!
In hindsight he could have done A, B, C instead. But that applies to all of us. And royals are only human.
- And for QMII, come on! How difficult is it for journalists to remember to use formal address when dealing with certain people? What are they going to do, at a press conference with the Pope? Say: "Hey, Popey."
It's IMO more a question that too many journalists think the sun shines out of their behind!

Schackenborg. Yes, the official story did sound somewhat questionable and the public saw right through. In later interviews Joachim has admitted that it was no longer worth running Schackenborg. It was too big a financial burden, so he pulled out. - And got a very good deal. But who would have said no?
Joachim, being a conservative and very proud man, the sale of Schackenborg was a huge personal defeat. The second huge defeat he has suffered. - And he got a lot of heat from both the divorce from Alexandra and the sale of Schackenborg. And very little sympathy.
That would knock out many people.

Yes, I agree. Joachim hasn't done a lot of work in recent years. Too little in fact. And he has had several areas in which he could focus his work. He hasn't. That's a pity. PR wise, and perhaps personally as well, it would help him a lot.
But, has it occurred to you that he might have a mid-life crisis? That he is having a depression? Even royals can have depressions. That he has lost his desire to work for the DRF? - I certainly don't blame him! Whatever he does, he gets criticized. It's never good enough. He will forever be the brother no one likes. - So in his shoes I would have no qualms about presenting my middle fingers and move to France.

In hindsight it's always easy to say what the court should have done and how they should have presented thing to the public.
Okay, let's play with the idea, that a proud man like Joachim, would share his innermost feelings and his sense of defeat with the public. - Rather than the Donald Duck story we were presented with.
I'm willing to bet ten bananas that he would have been met with little sympathy. He would have been told to pull himself together and stop angling for sympathy. - When Frederik cries, he's a man who dare show his feelings. When Joachim cries, he is whining.

As for the apanage. Joachim has never complained about doing his duty for the DRF.
And Joachim cannot be compared to others who are unfortunate in life. None of the people you probably think of were confined from birth. Joachim never enjoyed full freedom. He never had a choice in regards to a career, or education.
And Joachim can't do a Märtha Louise. That would almost certainly be against his nature and upbringing. And look what problem that has caused in Norway. Do you think he would abandon his brother in the same way?
So having been born with a silver spoon in his mouth, came with a price: His freedom.
So considering how much money is otherwise squandered on all sorts of things, give Joachim a pension and allow his to settle in France and be happy there.

- You and I probably despise "kuglestøderen"(*) and all he stands for just as much, let's not be petty like him, eh?

(*) That's a reference to domestic politics and would make little sense to foreigners - and be pretty off topic, not to mention political.

[Archduchess Zelia]

No, I understand that. I root for the underdog as much as the next girl but I also don't think I'm being unreasonable in my criticism. I also wasn't calling him arrogant, I was commenting on the way he's perceived as being arrogant and contested your suggestion that that all comes down to the public being unfair to him. I think you're very right in your observations about him taking after HM and that being guarded often can be mistaken for arrogance, but the point I was trying to make in my other post is that one or two unfortunate episodes don't make you unpopular the way Joachim is. Joachim's problem is that, not unlike our former PM, he just has a tendency to get entangled in one shitstorm after the other and eventually the public will run out of sympathy if you never seem to learn from your mistakes.

I don't really know what I'm supposed to do with a bunch of what-ifs. Is he having a mid-life crisis? Well, then it's been going on for an awfully long time Is he having a depression? I mean, if we learned anything from the way the court treated Henrik's dementia it is that openness is always preferable when it comes to a delicate state of mind. And I'd venture that if the public can sympathise with one of the least sympathetic politicians having a depression, their ability to feel sympathy for Joachim would be just fine. In any way, the public can't sympathise with him if they're not being open. If he has any kind of interest in changing the public opinion of him, it's decidedly foolish to keep making the same mistakes over and over again. Would the public fail to feel sympathy for him if he opened up? Well, we won't know if he doesn't try, will we? He recently had a good opportunity to do just that in his birthday documentary but somehow only used it for self-pitying. The public has elected him as the family scapegoat, the press is scrutinising his every move, his actions always get misunderstood. That's not opening up. That's not him saying "hey, I'm actually a sensitive guy". That's not him showing it. That's just more of the same.

And the scapegoat narrative simply doesn't hold. I'm old enough to remember a time when the general public didn't feel this way about Joachim and I think I have established in my previous post why Joachim and the court only have themselves to blame for things turning sour.

On the apanage: Nah. I don't buy that. If he truly wanted out, if the thought of life in the public eye without the ability to pursue his true dreams made him sick to his stomach, he could've gotten out. Märtha Louise did it and although the NRF may have come to regret some of her more dubious decisions later in life, when she relieved herself of her "royal duty" in 2002, she did it exactly to be able to do her own thing. It's not impossible. And also I think at the very least we can both agree that Joachim is an intelligent man who, had he... pulled a Märtha Louise, for lack of a better term, he would most definitely not have hooked up with a crook shaman and caused that kind of headaches for the DRF

And you know, Muhler, I always respect your opinion but as someone who's had firsthand experience growing up in a household that's been dancing closely to the (now abolished ) poverty line, I frankly think the suggestion that being critical of the prospect of giving a man who's lived his entire life in luxury and privilege a bonus for the supposed trials and tribulations of living in luxury and privilege is even just remotely similar to the smear campaign that JBO and the rest of LA have been be running against the most vulnerable members of our society is disgusting and completely out of touch with reality. The suggestion that you're somehow not confined by poverty likewise.

[Muhler]

Welcome to the club. Money sure wasn't something we had a lot off when I and my sisters grew up!

Shitsstorms? What shitstorms? What mistakes?
He has and is being subjected to criticism in the press and the public, but genuine full blown shitstorms happened only twice. The first after the divorce from Alexandra where he sure got all the blame - for the first years. That things were perhaps more nuanced has emerged later.
As a part of that it was claimed by some anonymous sources that he and some friends went on a binge or two after the divorce. Detractors of Joachim love to pull that one out, as you well know - even hinting that he is an alcoholic. But we don't know exactly what went on, and he is human. Going through what was no doubt the biggest crisis of his live (costing him a lot of money BTW) where he got all the blame, I would no doubt have done something similar.
Counseling wasn't something men of mine and Joachim's generation just went to back then. Especially not a proud and reserved man as Joachim.

The second shitstorm was the sale of Schackenborg. Okay, he pulled out and got an extraordinary good deal. Who would have said no?
What were people expecting of him? To hold on to Schackenborg until he was neck-deep in hopeless debt? Until there was nothing left for his children? Who would that benefit?

Apart from taking an awful long time to find his footing after the sale of Scackenborg, what else has he done wrong?
He still go abroad in connection with his protections. He still attends various official functions. Admittedly not an impressive number, but he does go on the job.
Joachim, with Alexandra, manned the fort back in the 90 and very early 00, while Frederik was serving in the military and attending university and finding his footing in life. And that's when his popularity peaked. (Mainly due to Alexandra's popularity to be honest.)

You don't understand the speculations I laid out in regards to Joachim having a personal crisis after the sale of Schackenborg. Is that because you haven't thought along those lines? Or don't want to even?
You know the Holberg quote: They say Jeppe drinks, but they don't say why Jeppe drinks. - The main difference between you and me in this discussion is that you say: Jeppe drinks! While I ask: Why does Jeppe drink?

You say the court and Joachim could do better in informing the public.
In what way? It's easy to say they should do this and that, when looking from the outside and in the glaring light of hindsight.
Would you honestly have a man who is in the second major crisis of his life to go public and tell Jolene Public all about his feelings and reasons, right after it happened? A man who is proud, very conservative and very reserved. Not to mention that he has the rest of the DRF to consider. Feelings and reasons that he likely had not even yet fully processed himself.
That would be equivalent of me gathering the whole neighborhood if (gods forbid!) I were to divorce and sell our house, and tell them all about my feelings and give them the whole background story. There is no way in this world I would even dream of doing that!
Yet, Joachim did just that.
Haven't you seen and read his latest interviews? That was a very honest Joachim! A surprisingly open Joachim, especially considering how reserved he is.
That came after a few years of deliberation and reflections - and perhaps counseling? I hope so, that would be beneficial for him, I think.

You keep pulling Märtha Louise. That was not an option. It caused a huge stir in Norway when she opted out! And if there is one thing royal families do not want, it's a prominent member to rock the boat.
And Märtha Louise is Märtha Louise. (We can debate endlessly whether her opting out was a blessing in disguise BTW.) Joachim is and was a very conservative man with a very strong sense of duty. Even if the thought of opting out had occurred to him (I personally suspect it has now though) he would no doubt have met strong opposition in papa Henrik and mother Margrethe!
So claiming he could easily have opted out is IMO totally flawed. It was a no go, until very recently.

I grew up in circumstances that were most likely similar to yours, that does not mean I cannot sympathize with people who have more money than me but are not happy.
Yes, I stand firmly by my opinion that Joachim should be compensated, should he opt out. (Our different views are interesting BTW, since I know you are a Social Democrat and I am a Liberal. It really should be the other way around. )
But let me ask this question: From the day you are born, I decide your, life, your career, your education, where you shall live and that you must join the military. I lay out the guidelines by which you must live in your work life as well as your private life. If I say you cut out some of your friends or boyfriends, you will do that. And I have the final say in regards to who you marry. On top of that you must live your life in full public glare.
In return you get to live a fairly comfortable life, materially speaking. And you get an apanage of what is it? 3.5 million or so?
If you after 50 years of living this life, wish to opt out more or less out, you get nothing! As in nothing at all. Not even a thank you. You are on your own.
Is that a fair treatment your think?
- Because that's what you propose. And I am not sorry to say that I find it petty.

[Archduchess Zelia]

I think you and I have a very different definition of mistakes then I don't really feel like repeating myself a third time but do feel free to consult my posts above for reference.

I never said I don't understand it? That's you putting words into my mouth because I disagree with you I said quite specifically that I don't subscribe to use of speculations as a defence of his actions. Saying “but what if he was depressed?” holds exactly as much validity as saying something like “but what if he's crashed one of his racing cars and hit his head?” He may very well have had a depression that has messed up his judgement but until the court or Joachim himself confirms that that has been the case, using it as an argument for cutting him slack is just a reification fallacy. So to use your example: I don't hear you say “why does Jeppe drink?” as much as I hear “Jeppe drinks for this one reason that I have decided and that I have no concrete evidence for.” Additionally I'd argue that if he has been depressed since around 2014, his actions regarding the move to France implies that he has yet to receive treatment and that would be slightly alarming to me.

Again, I feel I have explained in previous posts what I think the court should've done (and going forward, should do) differently. Openness is key to making people understand. That's just communications 101. If I was Joachim's PR genius (), I would definitely have him be open about a possible depression, yes. Considering the leverage it would give him with the general public, that shouldn't be too hard too swallow. It would be difficult to talk about at first but not only would it help him mentally – it's super exhausting to have to hide something like a depression – it would also benefit him in terms of improving his image. And as for your example: It wouldn't be the equivalent of you doing anything unless you're someone with a public following. (At this point is it really necessary to reiterate that our discussion (which, frankly, isn't so much a discussion as it is just a reiteration of two differing opinions) is about the public perception of Joachim?)

I can't help but noticing that you seem adamant on infantilising Joachim. It's impossible for him to break tradition because he's conservative and of the old school. He can't open up because he's reserved and too proud. He certainly can't change with the time because he's all of the above. And when the public don't understand all of that, they're being unreasonable. All of that just confirms my initial point which was that he only has himself to blame for the way he's perceived. Nothing will change if he himself refuses to change.

I don't really have much more (or new) to say on the comparisons to ML. Yes, I keep bringing her up because I don’t subscribe to your dismissal that Joachim could've done the same. And it's beyond my point, really, that it caused a stir. My argument was that she showed it can be done. Just like Joachim himself showed that modern royals also get divorces.

Finally, I'm perfectly capable of sympathising with people who have more money than me. I don't know if you're trying to suggest that I'm somehow devoid of emotions for not being up for throwing money after a man that 1. would be making his own money if he moved to a permanent position abroad, and 2. presumably still has a considerable handful of money left from the sale of Schackenborg? No, I don't support making rich and privileged people richer. As for your question: Yes. To all of that. Never having to struggle to make ends meet? Never having to worry about unforeseen expenses that could kill your budget for the next couple of months? Never having to fret about spending money on necessities? The financial ability to travel? And then to top it off with all the benefits you get from knowing the right people or having a "Prince/ss" attached to your name? People catering to your every need? And for all those privileges to extend to your children who then, in return, wouldn't even be subjected to as many restrictions as yourself? Absolutely. In a heartbeat. And none of the things you've listed would actually be my main concern. I think my main struggle would be being in the public eye but even that I could live with Feel free to call me petty, I guess I think the real interesting question is if Joachim would want to swap lives with a working class Dane. I somehow doubt it.

Secondly a lot of your examples are debatable. As for the location, I think Joachim has proven there's really no restrictions on where the royals should live. Schackenborg was running at a loss but it's not like QMII dictated that he moved to Aarhus or Aalborg to remain the DRF representative in Jylland. He and Marie were free to choose where they settled. They weren't even confined to Amalienborg once they opted for Copenhagen. As for cutting friends out of their lives, that doesn't really hold either. They (and by they I mean the entire DRF, not just Joachim) may not be seen publicly with their jetset friends prone to scandals but AFAIK nothing prevents them – and has prevented them in the past – from seeing them privately. The eduction and career part is also a bit on the edge. First of all, I think QMII (and Henrik) did a terrible job in forcing that agricultural career path over his head to begin with but I will also stand firm on the belief that if Joachim truly detested everything about it, he didn't have to force himself through it.

[Muhler]

You are absolutely right, it's time to wrap up this enjoyable discussion. I too am running out of ways of saying the same things.

I have noticed that you are very much going into defensive mode in regards to my questions, which were genuine and/or rhetorical. I am not accusing you of X, Y, Z - it's up to you whether I struck a nerve or not.
Having said that I will however state that it is my clear impression that you do not understand the mindset of middle-aged men. Especially if they are a bit on the conservative and proud side. - Otherwise you wouldn't seriously have suggested some of the things you do.
I don't blame you, I don't fully comprehend the mindset of women either. Even though I have been married to one for many years, there are often times when her mindset is a wonderful and fascinating enigma to me! - And may that remain so.

I am honestly a little surprised that you are willing to accept a comfortable life in return for giving up control of your life.
I might, might, be willing to that for the sake of my family, but not for myself. I would never, ever, give up my freedom!
Not even if the price is poverty. I can work myself out of poverty. Even if I don't succeed, I can try.

I have never claimed that Joachim is having a depression or feels burned out. It's a thought, a speculation - with just as much validity as your dismissal of that possibility.
I sure would understand I he had/has a depression or feel burned out!

Okay, damage control 101. let's go public and spill out your innermost thoughts to the masses, and preferably cry while doing it...
That's the typical PR-method these days.
I will without hesitation claim that no one who did that, did that willingly. None of them enjoyed it. And very few thought it was beneficial to themselves - not even in hindsight.
The hypothetical example I outlined, with me explaining myself to entire neighborhood is something I would only do at gunpoint!
My reaction would be: If I want to tell all, it would be if I want to, when I want to and to whom I want to! Everybody else can get lost!
- To me that suggests that you do not comprehend how a proud man feels.

Now, being proud, while sure having a lot of downsides, also have distinct positive sides: It means you try and hold yourself to a high standard, sometimes even beyond reason. And when you fail, it hurts. A lot!
Joachim actually did go public in recent interviews, but he followed a natural process:
Failure! - A deep sense of failure. Your pride hurts. Big time!
Self-incrimination. - You are a failure and you let everybody down!
Rejection of help.- Leave me alone! I'll manage!
Denial. - An attempt to explain away your failure with something else. But deep down you know you failed... - Many never go beyond that stage. Some even choose the noose...
Reflection. - You take a hard and hurtful look in the mirror and realize as honest to yourself as you can be, what went wrong. What you did wrong. What you could have done. What ought to have been done.
Acceptance. - You are realizing what happened, what can be blamed on you and what you couldn't do anything about. You accept that sometimes sh*t happens.
Openness. - Once you have accepted and reflected on what happened, then you feel like talking about it. And it even feels good to talk about it. But not before you reach that stage.

That is the mindset of a middle-aged, proud man. And I dare say most men.

And with that I think there is little more I feel I can contribute to this discussion for now.

[Archduchess Zelia]

I get defensive when you patronisingly imply that I'm not able to understand that someone's actions can be impaired by their mental state of mind when I feel I've made it quite clear that that isn't the aspect of your theory I'm disputing. So no need to worry about damaged nerves

There's not a lot of freedom or control of your life in having to worry about not being able to pay your rent each month. Thankfully that isn't something I have to worry about anymore but the experience alone is enough for me to know that I gladly would've swapped lives with Joachim if given the opportunity

You said it. A speculation. Not a stupid speculation or an unrealistic speculation but going back to our original discussion, I just think it's unreasonable to ask the public to cut him slack on the basis of a speculation. They're not mind-readers and if his state of mind is so delicate that it affects his job, it needs to be communicated out (think (middle-aged ) Henrik Sass – although a lot of can be said about that mess as well).

No, I understand that that is your perception of how an average middle-aged man feels and I largely concur that that probably is the mindset of a lot of middle-aged men. But as times are changing, the whole "mandemand" complex that idealises a macho culture is thankfully on the go and I – perhaps naively – hope that it will extend beyond the boys who are growing up now and will inspire all men to know that it doesn't make you any less of a man to be open about your problems.

One of the things I really appreciated about the interviews Joachim gave for his birthday was the subject of Nikolai and the military. It made me very happy to hear that he recognises that he made the very common parental mistake of putting his own ambitions for his child ahead of his child's own ambitions. I generally just think the way they – with Joachim and Alexandra at the forefront – handled that whole issue was exemplary. And I just wish he and the court would've handled their move to France with the same care.