Marie Cavallier: Degreed? Assumptions? True or False?

[Benedikte]

Well

Finally coming home from work and looking at Royal Forum. I'm really in the center of things I see.

Remember my comment on Marie Cavallier was about miss Sofia!

There was some very harsh words about Sofia and in these sourrondings my comments was not at all rude or insulting.

And with all due respect of the royal feelings of the fans:

I can document every word I wrote. Actually I gave you a lot of links.

And again - my comment on Marie Cavallier belongs in a debate about Sofia.

On this part of the royal forum I will only state that it is essentiel that our young girls learn that you are not supposed to spend your life waiting for a husbond.

[JessRulz]

A few posts have been removed as they added nothing to this discussion.

The moderators would also like to remind everyone to treat all members and their opinions with respect - especially if you would like them to return the favour. We would also like the discussion to move back to what the topic is about - Princess Marie's education (or lack-of), with sources/links being given to support statements issued as fact.

Discussion about the behaviour of fan-groups does not belong in this thread, and any future posts on the matter will be removed (if you have any issues with the behaviour of any members, please contact a member of the moderating/administrative team via PM with your concerns/complaints).

JessRulz,
Danish Forum Moderator

for the Danish Mods

[Kataryn]

Originally Posted by Benedikte

Marie and Joachim got engaged and the court informed the reporters about a business degree and a business career.

The business degree turned out to be a mistake.
Se og Hør: Marie Cavalliers CV er fup - hun var kaffebrygger - Avisen.dk

http://www.e-pages.dk/urban/346/full...fc1191b78b.pdf

and the court changed the cv.

As Benedikte posted this information in another thread about Marie where the question of Marie's suitibility of representing Denmark on foreign visits to cultural institutions was raised and discussed, I checked a bit into this article and into Marie's former college, Marymount Manhattan College.

First of all: The official website of the Danish monarchy states clearly that Princess Marie holds a BA degree from Marymount Manhattan College in NYC, USA.

Originally Posted by Benedikte
Well The danish court had to change her cv.

What did they write first? Where is the section where they changed something? To what?

Then some questions about the article at Se og Hoer, which Benedikte repeatedly quoted as her source. They claim that they did research Marie's past in Boston and New York and that she has "no such exams".

She has no degree from Babson, right - but that has not been claimed anywhere. But she could have provided evidence of achievement of the learning goals for courses passed there and be granted academic credits by Marymount College after they evaluated these prior proofs of academic learning.

For more information how this works: Alternative Opportunities for Earning Credit - Marymount Manhattan College

Some people make a big impression on others. Marie left no impression of importance, says Michael Chmra has inspectors at Babson College in Boston, where Mary moved in 1994 and after two years of school left it without a diploma.

This person according to goole search only exists in connection with this article. Apart from that: since when is it required to leave an impression of importance when being an undergraduate student? What kind of evaluation of the academic merits of a person is that?

After her parents paid 110,000 dollars annually for 3 1 / 2, so Marie could move to New York and then, as the press was led to believe, take its highly acclaimed Bachelor of Science degree in marketing, trading and IT at Marymount College.
But Marie studied liberal arts discipline, which is a very soft and general education, which according to David Nye, professor of American studies at Southern University, has little thesis about it. It writes Seg og Hoer that has come into possession of the official papers from Marymount College.

According to the Marymount Manhattan College's webpage, you can only be granted credits for prior learning if you got them in a topic you can study at MMC. As Marie studied economics and international business before entering MMC, she can only have chosen one of their major courses in the disciplines. But she didn't pass a B.S (which is the degree in Business studies), but a B.A. course there.

Thus my guess after reading the yearbook of the College from 1998-1999 (it's on the net if one cares to do further research instead of just posting articles from unreliable sources...), she got credits for her economics studies and used them for a minor in eg Business Management or Business Communications or Computer Information Management. In addition to that she could have taken the Major in Communication Arts with an additional minor in French language.
This would fit in with her working placements in the industry, working in press and marketing agencies.

It would explain as well why she was so positive about the media in the beginning of her relationship with Joachim. When they teach you about the values of Communication they normally do not tell you that being communicative is a big disadvantage on dating a prince...

This David Nye is a reknown professor for American Studies at a Danish university but we are not informed what question he actually was asked. I personally don't think he was asked about the fair Marie's background but rather about what "Liberal Arts" mean. And it's indeed a way to tutor academically that find soft skills important. But that doesn't mean that the students don't have to work for their degrees.

From the College in question's own homepage:

"The General Education Curriculum
We drew upon the goals of a liberal arts foundation when we developed the sequence of courses that comprise the general education curriculum, these courses are designed to help you develop the skills and competencies you will require for success in college and throughout your lives.

Every Marymount Manhattan student completes the fundamental skills courses and is expected to make progress toward the achievement of the following learning goals:

• Communicate effectively as a reader, a speaker, a writer;
• Exhibit critical thinking and problem solving skills;
• Research, analyze, and synthesize information;
• Apply quantitative reasoning skills.

The fundamental skills courses form the foundation of all MMC degrees."

In my opinion this is quite a good basis for a job as a member of a Royal family who is never going to get too deeply involved into the work of the organisations she visits, apart from her own charities like Mary's "Mary Foundation".

Why should a Royal hold a degree in something very special like eg. being an engineer for electronics and communications technique or being a historian specialized in the Ming dynasty of ancient China? Okay, there is this Thai princess who works as a professor of her topic at Bangkok and as visiting professor at foreign universities but that's her personal career and not part of Royal duties.

To fulfill Royal duties Marie's degree is just right.

[Duke of Marmalade]

IMO the best consorts are those who are confident and relaxed characters and are strong enough to remain who they are, unfazed by the media theatre, of course with the support of the all important partner. Personal ambition and being a consort is not a good combination in the long run. What a consort needs is the right touch with people and a genuine interest in serving. They dont need any degrees at all but a lot of common sense, not aiming to be loved by everybody but to be respected for what they contribute to the country.

Possible that such people are very hard to find. Marie is only the wife of the second son of the Danish Queen, I wonder why people are expecting a special qualification. What is utterly wrong is to fake anything, very naive to think people wont find out.

[Kataryn]

Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade

IWhat is utterly wrong is to fake anything, very naive to think people wont find out.

Thus far, I haven't seen any proof that she faked anything. Since 2008 the statement that she has a BA degree is published on the official webpage of the DRF and noone has obviously informed the Court that this information is wrong. Thus I believe she has that degree. As Marymount Manhattan College works together with foreign state-owned universities in international exchange programms I think her degree is officially recognized in the academical world.

[Duke of Marmalade]

Originally Posted by Kataryn

Thus far, I haven't seen any proof that she faked anything. Since 2008 the statement that she has a BA degree is published on the official webpage of the DRF and noone has obviously informed the Court that this information is wrong. Thus I believe she has that degree. As Marymount Manhattan College works together with foreign state-owned universities in international exchange programms I think her degree is officially recognized in the academical world.

I didnt necessarily mean Marie but unfortunatly there is a tendency to make CVs look much better as they actually are and sometimes royal courts are moving in a grey zone between making look better, leaving stuff out, faking. Not only for the consort, but also for their family members. Giving examples all over royalty would only derail the thread therefore I will stick to the Danish, best example is Henrik and the Monpezat family styling themselves as counts.

[Kataryn]

Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade

I didnt necessarily mean Marie but unfortunatly there is a tendency to make CVs look much better as they actually are and sometimes royal courts are moving in a grey zone between making look better, leaving stuff out, faking. Not only for the consort, but also for their family members. Giving examples all over royalty would only derail the thread therefore I will stick to the Danish, best example is Henrik and the Monpezat family styling themselves as counts.

You're right, this tendency exists and one wishes the Royals were souverain enough to stick to their choice of consorts without feeling the need to give their CV a heavy "touch-up". But maybe we see a change now that Prince Daniel of Sweden is accepted and very well liked even though he was born a country boy in Ockelbo and is proud of that fact.

Where is the sense anyway in pretending to be something you aren't? You can't change the facts of your birth, so it doesn't make sense to try. And one hopes that people are what they are not because of their birth or social station acquired through marriage but because of what they made of their life. If Princess Marie was uneducated and rude, with bad manners and very high in the instep, she wouldn't be wanted as a guest, I believe. But if you are a likeable person you will be in demand for your visits even after you lost your Royal position like Countess Alexandra did.

As for Marie: I still recall how really interested she appeared in the documentary about her after her engagement to Joachim, how she really asked good questions about Denmark and the Danish culture - one could see that she is a person who is willing to learn and that's the important point for me.

[Sternchen]

Originally Posted by Kataryn

Why should a Royal hold a degree in something very special like eg. being an engineer for electronics and communications technique or being a historian specialized in the Ming dynasty of ancient China? Okay, there is this Thai princess who works as a professor of her topic at Bangkok and as visiting professor at foreign universities but that's her personal career and not part of Royal duties.

To fulfill Royal duties Marie's degree is just right.

Yes, but when she chose this degree she wasn't a royal. Or better said, she couldn't have been sure to become a royal, couldn't she?

[TLLK]

Thank you Kataryn for your extensive research about this topic. From reading your posts I believe that the information that you've presented is accurate and true. IMO Princess Marie has quickly adapted to her role in the Danish Royal Family and it appears that her education and prior career experiences has played a positive role in her transition from "commoner" to royal.

[Benedikte]

translation of one of the articles:

http://www.e-pages.dk/urban/346/full...ebef1912d0.pdf

She was just a coffee fetcher and was not
graduating her exams.

Prince Joachim's fiancée and Denmark
future princess, Marie Cavallier,
has according to this week's edition of Look and Listen
made the cv prettier. The Magazine has visited schools
in the U.S. and can prove that the French
woman's education is not as flashy,
as has been described in the press.
Papers issued to the press in connection
with the fiance mention that Marie
Cavallier has a bachelor's degree in marketing,
commerce and IT from Marymount Manhattan College
and that she has studied business conditions
and economics at Babson College in Boston.
But according to the magazine was the French woman
no model student. After two years
studies, she left Babson College without diploma.
She then studied for over three
years at Marymount Manhattan College in New
York. Here she is not as claimed the coveted
'Bachelor of science' in marketing,
commerce and IT, but studying in reality
profession 'liberal arts', which is a softer, less
intensive training.

Coffee Fetching

After graduation she was 1,5 years
internship at the firm Doubleclick. A position
according to See and Hear the best information
can be described as 'coffee fetcher'.

According to the royal family expert and professor of administrative law
CLAUS Haagen Jensen, it makes
however no difference if Marie Cavallier
have decorated on her resume.
"One can hardly imagine that the information
places her in a better light. But
for the monarchy it means nothing. There is
no requirement that either Royal or their
spouses must have a designated course" He says.

It has not been possible to get a comment
from the royal family.

[Kataryn]

Originally Posted by Benedikte

translation of one of the articles:

http://www.e-pages.dk/urban/346/full...ebef1912d0.pdf

She was just a coffee fetcher and was not
graduating her exams.

Prince Joachim's fiancée and Denmark
future princess, Marie Cavallier,
has according to this week's edition of Look and Listen
made the cv prettier. The Magazine has visited schools
in the U.S. and can prove that the French
woman's education is not as flashy,
as has been described in the press.
Papers issued to the press in connection
with the fiance mention that Marie
Cavallier has a bachelor's degree in marketing,
commerce and IT from Marymount Manhattan College
and that she has studied business conditions
and economics at Babson College in Boston.
But according to the magazine was the French woman
no model student. After two years
studies, she left Babson College without diploma.
She then studied for over three
years at Marymount Manhattan College in New
York. Here she is not as claimed the coveted
'Bachelor of science' in marketing,
commerce and IT, but studying in reality
profession 'liberal arts', which is a softer, less
intensive training.

Again the quoted source just takes the information provided in the Se og Hoer-article from 2008. I have yet to see information from the Danish Court that Marie claimed to be a B.Sc.

Okay, let's assume the journalists of the Danish magazine made a bit of research. Then they found out that if you major in marketing, commerce and IT you get the degree of "Bachelor of Science". Forget the coveted - that's just a journalistic add-on to make it sound much more important than the BA that Marie has.

What they omited is that you can major in eg Communication Arts with minors in marketing, commerce and IT and be awarded the Bachelor of Arts. And you can bring academic credits from other colleges on changing to Marymount. That they don't mention either.

Fact is there is no degree in "liberal Arts" from Marymount College. As can be seen on the homepage you have a choice between 18 major courses, some of which lead to a B.Sc., some to a BA. In addition they offer a choice of 38 minor courses and allow a combination of eg. minors in economics and Business management with a major that leads to the Bachelor of Arts degree.
Source: Academic Programs at MMC - Marymount Manhattan College

What I think the Danish journalists misunderstood (per chance or on purpose I don't know) is that the philosophical and educational foundation of the whole teaching process at Marymount Manhattan College is a "Liberal Arts Foundation". So no matter what you study there to get your degree, you need to have passed courses in which they teach you how to work academically in the "liberal Arts" way. I quoted a bit of that but for the whole philosophy about studying at MMC read here:
A Liberal Arts Foundation - Marymount Manhattan College

It is not to say it is easier to pass a degree there than at other colleges. It is just a different way to teach and learn. This college is ranked as one of the 200 best American Colleges with a Liberal Arts foundation with a general rank of "Tier 2" by U.S. News, which is said to be a very reliable source of information when it comes to academical rankings. They wouldn't be on that list if they "sold" their degrees. Degrees which are internationally accepted.

All this information could be found on the internet if one cared to do the research. I have no doubt that the Danish journalists were able to find this information as well. It is sad that they omitted positive aspects of Marie's education and diminished her academical results through stating that while a B.Sc. is "coveted", her B.A. is not even mentioned.

I have worked for years in the training of future journalists and must say if I had been the editor of this magazine, I would not have accepted this article because anyone with a bit of knowledge about journalism can see that the facts were ignored and statements were obviously taken from people potentially invented or taken out of their context.

As for cooking coffee as part of her duties as a new member of staff - well, we all did that, right, if that was expected from us in our first job after finishing university.... I still cook and fetch coffee sometimes for my collegues... What does that make me? A successless nuisance? Or a friendly coworker?

[Benedikte]

Here is another article, translated, s'il vous plaît :

Se og Hør: Marie Cavalliers CV er fup - hun var kaffebrygger - Avisen.dk

"A fierce and well-educated business woman. It is the image that the Crown would have wanted to give of Marie Cavallier, who d. 24 May marries Prince Joachim, and thus become Denmark's new princess.

But today ShowHype prove that Marie's CV might not be quite as flashy.

During the engagement the Court gave a piece of paper that circulated among journalists, which amongst other things that Marie has a bachelor's degree in marketing and IT from Marymount Manhattan College in New York, and she has studied business and economics in two years at Babson College in Boston.

Something like several media, including News newspaper, wrote about.

But it turns out that is not entirely correct. For according to ShowHype who have sought out Marie's past in both Boston and New York, Marie has no such exams.

- Some people make a big impression on others. Marie left no impression of importance, says Michael Chmra has inspectors at Babson College in Boston, where Mary moved in 1994 and after two years of school left it without a diploma.

After her parents paid 110,000 dollars annually for 3 1 / 2, so Marie could move to New York and then, as the press was led to believe, take its highly acclaimed Bachelor of Science degree in marketing, trading and IT at Marymount College.

But Marie studied liberal arts discipline, which is a very soft and general education, which according to David Nye, professor of American studies at Southern University, has little thesis about it. It writes ShowHype that has come into possession of the official papers from Marymount College.

After studying in New York spent Marie Cavallier and a half years as a trainee in the firm DoubleClick, where she, according to the magazine helped with coffee brewing and data entry into company computers - that is the closest she was seven years came on the marketing, commerce and IT, before she in 2001 turned home Shweiz and joined his stepfather's company. "

[Kataryn]

Originally Posted by Benedikte

Here is another article, translated, s'il vous plaît :

But with the same content - again that Se og Hoer "research"...

Sorry, but I don't buy into that story. Obviously no real reliable paper in Denmark did either...

[Benedikte]

And an article from the newspaper Jyllandsposten:
Royal CV: slightly tweaked

Prince Joachim's fiancee, Marie Cavallier, Apparently are not as well-Educated as the royal family has portrayed her, according to See and Hear gossip magazine.

During the engagement, the royal press officer distributed information about the future princess, stating that she has a bachelor's degree in Marketing and IT from Marymount Manhattan College in New York and also has studied business at Babson College in Boston 2 years.

However the magazine did some digging and it turns out that the soon-to-be royal didn't have the qualifications at all. She was an Intern at a New York company, where she made coffee and ENTERED data - and not the marketing hot-shot she was presented to have been before the Engagement to Prince Joachim

[sgl]

I work in a university in the US. I can tell you with 100% certainty that US News is avery reliable source when it comes to ranking American universities. They would never put a school on their list that "sold" degrees. NEVER.

Secondly, a BA is in no way inferior to a Bachelor of Science. They are the same exact degree. The only difference is that a BA includes the social sciences and humanities and a BS includes the sciences. There are even some very good Liberal Arts colleges that only award BA degrees. I have a friend who attended a prestigious liberal arts school. He studied business and economics. The degree he earned was a BA. He later went on to be admitted to an even more prestigious (and very well known) university for an MBA (Master of Business Administration degree). That school would NEVER have accepted him if his degree was considered inferior. My point is that Marie has a Bachelor degree that is just as good as any other Bachelor degree. So what it it's in Liberal Arts? Her job as a princess involves the humanities and social sciences. The degree fits. The fact that this story only came from one source (and that source has been stated to be a gossip mag numerous times-especially when they post some made up story about CP Mary). It's funny that some are now using that source as the gospel truth when it applies to this rumor about Marie. If this was a rumor about anyone else in the DRF, that magazine would be cited as nothing more than a gossip rag.

And so what if she made coffee at her first job? I had several meaningless jobs after I graduated from college too. That's typically the case for many people who take a job right after graduating with a bachelor degree.

[TLLK]

Originally Posted by Kataryn

Again the quoted source just takes the information provided in the Se og Hoer-article from 2008. I have yet to see information from the Danish Court that Marie claimed to be a B.Sc.

Okay, let's assume the journalists of the Danish magazine made a bit of research. Then they found out that if you major in marketing, commerce and IT you get the degree of "Bachelor of Science". Forget the coveted - that's just a journalistic add-on to make it sound much more important than the BA that Marie has.

What they omited is that you can major in eg Communication Arts with minors in marketing, commerce and IT and be awarded the Bachelor of Arts. And you can bring academic credits from other colleges on changing to Marymount. That they don't mention either.

Fact is there is no degree in "liberal Arts" from Marymount College. As can be seen on the homepage you have a choice between 18 major courses, some of which lead to a B.Sc., some to a BA. In addition they offer a choice of 38 minor courses and allow a combination of eg. minors in economics and Business management with a major that leads to the Bachelor of Arts degree.
Source: Academic Programs at MMC - Marymount Manhattan College

What I think the Danish journalists misunderstood (per chance or on purpose I don't know) is that the philosophical and educational foundation of the whole teaching process at Marymount Manhattan College is a "Liberal Arts Foundation". So no matter what you study there to get your degree, you need to have passed courses in which they teach you how to work academically in the "liberal Arts" way. I quoted a bit of that but for the whole philosophy about studying at MMC read here:
A Liberal Arts Foundation - Marymount Manhattan College

It is not to say it is easier to pass a degree there than at other colleges. It is just a different way to teach and learn. This college is ranked as one of the 200 best American Colleges with a Liberal Arts foundation with a general rank of "Tier 2" by U.S. News, which is said to be a very reliable source of information when it comes to academical rankings. They wouldn't be on that list if they "sold" their degrees. Degrees which are internationally accepted.

All this information could be found on the internet if one cared to do the research. I have no doubt that the Danish journalists were able to find this information as well. It is sad that they omitted positive aspects of Marie's education and diminished her academical results through stating that while a B.Sc. is "coveted", her B.A. is not even mentioned.

I have worked for years in the training of future journalists and must say if I had been the editor of this magazine, I would not have accepted this article because anyone with a bit of knowledge about journalism can see that the facts were ignored and statements were obviously taken from people potentially invented or taken out of their context.

As for cooking coffee as part of her duties as a new member of staff - well, we all did that, right, if that was expected from us in our first job after finishing university.... I still cook and fetch coffee sometimes for my collegues... What does that make me? A successless nuisance? Or a friendly coworker?

AFAIK the U.S. News and World Reports annual university rankings are still highly coveted positions. I would accept their findings.

Excellent posts Kataryn and Gatos. I agree that if this was truly a controversy that it would have been investigated by major news sources in Denmark rather than by the tabloid press. (Creating "drama" is their bread and butter after all.)

[Zonk]

As someone who also has a BA from a nationally recognized American University, I am a little confused about the "controversy"

According to the royal website Marie has a
The Princess studied international business and economics at Babson College, Boston, Massachusetts, USA (1995-1997) and economics at university in Genève (1994-1995). The Princess has a Bachelor of Arts from Marymount Manhattan College, New York (1997-1999).

Source: The Danish Monarchy - The Royal House - HRH Princess Marie .

Has she claimed to have anything else? And if so, if that has since been corrected what is the big deal?

[Sternchen]

Originally Posted by Gatos

I work in a university in the US. I can tell you with 100% certainty that US News is avery reliable source when it comes to ranking American universities. They would never put a school on their list that "sold" degrees. NEVER.

I might have missed something, but where did anyone claim, that a degree was sold? Apparently the informations about Marie which have been given out by the Danish Royal Court were, that she had a B.Sc. and they only corrected it, after S&H confronted them about it.

As for the reliability of S&H, if you guess enough, you will eventually be right.
I am sure nobody in Denmark would think that S&H were more reliable only because they once found something.

[sgl]

Originally Posted by Sternchen

I might have missed something, but where did anyone claim, that a degree was sold?

It was mentioned in a previous post by Kataryn (who was defending the reputation of Marymount Manhattan College). I also mentioned it to emphasize the integrity of the schools featured in the annual rankings by U.S. News of American universities.

And do you have proof that this is the "one time" S&H were right?

[Sternchen]

Originally Posted by Gatos

It was mentioned in a previous post by Kataryn (who was defending the reputation of Marymount Manhattan College). I also mentioned it to emphasize the integrity of the schools featured in the annual rankings by U.S. News of American universities.

But the point is, that I haven't in any of the articles read that S&H claimed that the degree was bought I might have missed it though

Originally Posted by Gatos

And do you have proof that this is the "one time" S&H were right?

I wrote "Apparently" I never said that they were right