General News about Joachim, Marie and Family Part 6: January 2021 -

[Muhler]

And BT has an article and it is indeed a - overdue - clarification:
https://www.bt.dk/royale/prins-joach...eg-er-samtidig

The focus is on the now infamous Point de Vue interview and in this Berlingske interview Joachim clarifies:
"Now, I'll try to and make this brief. Most of us, no matter what destiny we have, can in our part of the world expect that we can pretty much do what we want. We are not forced to go the way of our parents. That gives a width and depth in our lives.
But when you are from a royal family, things are more set within a framework."
He adds that he can only move within a very confined/narrow niche.

"There is no manuscript when you are number two. You have to help define the role.
Now I have gotten a new dimension to the royal role: To be deployed."

"I have much more freedom than the Crown Prince to do what I want, but I'm at the same time limited in the way I live. It was merely in that context, that I said it."

- The question of apanage while being deployed abroad also came up in the Point de Vue interview and it's clear that J&M consider Joachim being a defense attache as falling within the royal duties.

Our Marie says: "To be deployed abroad for Denmark is also a royal representation/work."

He is supposed to be stationed in France for three years, when those three years are up, there are at present no further plans.
- Which suggests to me that he can extend his stay, seek another deployment abroad, return to DK as major general (which he is likely to be promoted to) and serve in some capacity there, or retire as major general (which is also an option, not least for health reasons) or return as a working royal, or pursue some personal ambition. (Like being a narrator.)

[polyesco]

Thanks to all for the links and insights. It is certainly damage control somewhat. Yes Joachim has limits but is also very privileged, and at 50+ needs to find his own even with the restrictions. Always nice to get an insight into their lives but this seems more of the same from their other 2-3 interviews

[Muhler]

Which suggests to me that they live fairly uneventful lives like the rest of us.

Two things: I notice the photos in the article is from the Danish House at Champs Elysee, not their private apartment.
The rent would no doubt be insane!

The second thing: Do they have a royal role to return to in year or so?

With Corona we haven't exactly seen that much of the DRF. So we can exist without seeing that much of them...
M&F is the de facto regent couple. QMII takes on the duties she has to as a head of state - and then pick those she feels like taking on. Not that she hasn't earned that right considering her age and 50 years of service as Monarch.
Benedikte drops by from time to time and do her bits.

Once Christian graduates from high school and leave Herlufsholm a lot of attention will be focused on him, no matter how visible he is.
I can't see Isabella escaping that attention either. She's the first teen-princess we've had in the DRF since the early 60's, that alone means lots of attention!

So in one way or another both Christian and Isabella are almost certain to take on some jobs, be that solo or with their parents. Just like with Frederik and Joachim, there is a role for Isabella until Christian is ready to really step up, probably when he is around 30 or so.

So if J&M return to DK as full-time working royals, after four years being away, what are they going to do?

One role as full-time working royals for J&M that I see is with QMII having passed away (or abdicated) and Benedikte retired as well.
I.e. Joachim is a predominantly supporting character for M&F, until Christian in particular is ready to take over in say fifteen years. With Isabella more or less voluntarily being a darling of the press though.
And our Marie taking over from Benedikte.

Otherwise I fear it will become a little crowded in Denmark with all those full-time royals out and about. And as it is J&M will fade away in the eyes of the media. Akin to Benedikte who work a lot, but get very little attention.

So I think Joachim will either continue his military career in DK or pursue some other thing that he is passionate about. With him stepping in from time to time, say as Rigsforstander.
And again with Marie taking over from Benedikte. Not the same jobs, but in a role similar to Benedikte. She seems to thrive doing that.
- Personally I think that will be the best and wisest choice.

[kalnel]

I think it's telling that Joachim keeps referring to himself as the "number two." He needs to come to grips with the fact that he's the "number six."

[Prinsara]

When you've spent your life trying to internalize you are "number 2", even when your parents simultaneously insist on raising you as a twin to your brother, I don't think it's so easy to slip that mindset.

I don't think Joachim wants to be king, or usurp his nephews and nieces. But I think he is still trying to figure out his own role. To his credit, he is working very hard for the family business (after a life-threatening illness) with a minimum of grousing and damage doing. Not all unsettled spares or former spares do the same.

[Archduchess Zelia]

That's funny because, without being well-versed in every European royal family, Joachim definitely stands out to me as one of the most grousing spares. And while it's difficult to make out the workload of his current position, he certainly wasn't overburdened before he left for France.

[kalnel]

I don't have a lot of sympathy for him trying to figure out his role at this point. He's 50, not 30, and his brother has had heirs for 16 years. Joachim isn't in a position like his great-uncle Prince Knud, where the laws suddenly changed when he was in his 50s and he found his future changed completely. He's had decades to sort himself out.

But, I'm sure there are things behind the scenes we don't know about. I hope for his sake that he is able to pursue whatever he wants to be and however he wants to live.

[Prinsara]

Originally Posted by kalnel

I hope for his sake that he is able to pursue whatever he wants to be and however he wants to live.

That would seem to be the opposite of the definition of "working royalty", number six or not. And perhaps it's part of Joachim's conflicts.

[Muhler]

Whether we feel sympathy for Joachim or not, he nevertheless address a relevant issue: What do we do with the spares, once they are replaced as spares?

We are going to see it in Belgium, until Elisabeth there has children of her own and they are in their teens.
The same thing in the Netherlands. Until Amalia has children of her own and they are in their teens, Alexia is on standby.
Spain, the same thing.
Sweden in 10-15 years Carl-Phillip will begin to find himself replaced by Estelle.
In Norway, they may have to introduce the concept of a working spare, Sverre. Who will eventually become redundant too.
In Britain, the problem has pretty much been solved, albeit somewhat unintentionally, for several decades into the future.
In Denmark we have Isabella, who will also have a role of some sort.

- Because Joachim is right. As a spare you have more freedom, but only to an extent.
You live a public life within a number of confines. You can't just settle anywhere you want. You can't just take on any job you want. You can't just do whatever you want - there has to be some royal dignity over your behavior. You can't just say or join what you want.
And that's your life until your older sibling produce a healthy heir and spare - who has reached a certain age. IMO preferably their teens, before you can truly call them an heir and a spare. Also because prior to that they will often accompany their parents on flights and if there is an accident...

Beforehand the spare continued to have an active role or got an estate somewhere or an apanage to live off, while quietly fading away.

I do not like and I think it's very unwise to say when the spare is middle aged: Thank you for your services, here is your notice. Now buck off.

[kalnel]

I think the Netherlands actually has a pretty good model for spares. Willem-Alexander's brothers both pursued professional careers while being spares. The same is true in Luxembourg and Liechtenstein.

And, Denmark has an excellent "former spare" in Benedikte. She's been sliding down in in the line of succession for half a century, but she does her job without any public complaints.

[Muhler]

And no one is talking about stripping Benedikte of her apanage.
Yet, some would like to strip Joachim of his. - So, is it any wonder he address the issue of being a spare?

Benedikte married into status and wealth. Marrying one of the largest landowners in Germany and into a very prominent noble German family.
So she could maintain her affiliation with the DRF, while being able to secure her retirement, once she was no longer needed as a spare.
But more importantly, Benedikte could work for the DRF from a pretty much safe and uncontroversial position.
And she became redundant as a spare before she reached middle age. I.e. by the early 1980's when Frederik and Joachim became teens, at which point Benedikte was 40 or so.

I'm not sure the Dutch model would work in DK. It's a option for sure, and something worth looking into. But it very much depends on what kind of professional career it is.
The public in DK is very touchy about members of the DRF being associated with anything controversial.
I think an acceptable and safe option would be a career as a civil servant or the military.
A senior DRF member being employed by a private company could very easily become controversial here.

[Stefan]

(..)

but still i agree with Muhler. Nobody complains about Benedikte doing duties and getting money for it, but then she is long over retirement age which Joachim isn't.

[Prinsara]

Originally Posted by Muhler

The public in DK is very touchy about members of the DRF being associated with anything controversial.
I think an acceptable and safe option would be a career as a civil servant or the military.
A senior DRF member being employed by a private company could very easily become controversial here.

What if a spare wanted to do something like be a physician or an engineer or an academic? I assume that would be acceptable?

[CyrilVladisla]

If Princess Isabella of Denmark marries at a young age and she marries a foreign prince or foreign aristocrat who would continue to live in his native country, how much would she be helping out with royal duties in Denmark?

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla

If Princess Isabella of Denmark marries at a young age and she marries a foreign prince or foreign aristocrat who would continue to live in his native country, how much would she be helping out with royal duties in Denmark?

See the elder sons of Prince Joachim: they almost have no public engagements. I assume Denmark will see the same evolution as in all monarchies: a slimmer court with the focus on the present, the future and the former royal couples.

[Prinsara]

Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla

If Princess Isabella of Denmark marries at a young age and she marries a foreign prince or foreign aristocrat who would continue to live in his native country, how much would she be helping out with royal duties in Denmark?

-There aren't that many princes for her to marry, really, iirc. Especially if you take out her Greek cousins.
-And if she does like her other great-aunt (Muhler, what is the Danish word for great-aunt?) and marries an aristocrat, why would it not be that that aristocrat would not come and live in Denmark?
-Furthermore if she does go, she has two younger siblings who may be wanted to help out.

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by Prinsara

What if a spare wanted to do something like be a physician or an engineer or an academic? I assume that would be acceptable?

Working for the state would be safest IMO, also as a researcher or engineer. But I would find it hard to see a senior royal work as say a state attorney. But the clergy would be fine.

Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla

If Princess Isabella of Denmark marries at a young age and she marries a foreign prince or foreign aristocrat who would continue to live in his native country, how much would she be helping out with royal duties in Denmark?

Not much, I imagine. But then we have Vincent, or perhaps rather Josephine as she enjoys being in the limelight.

Originally Posted by Prinsara

-There aren't that many princes for her to marry, really, iirc. Especially if you take out her Greek cousins.
-And if she does like her other great-aunt (Muhler, what is the Danish word for great-aunt?) and marries an aristocrat, why would it not be that that aristocrat would not come and live in Denmark?
-Furthermore if she does go, she has two younger siblings who may be wanted to help out.

Great-aunt = grandtante. Great-uncle = grandonkel.

And while we are at it.
Great-grandfather = oldefar (which means oldest or most senior father.)
Great-grandmother = oldemor.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Prinsara

-And if she does like her other great-aunt (Muhler, what is the Danish word for great-aunt?) and marries an aristocrat, why would it not be that that aristocrat would not come and live in Denmark?

Isn't it because the European royal families continue to conform to the old patrilineal rule that the wife settles in her husband's country and not the other way around, unless the wife is the heiress to the throne?

Prince Joachim and Marie Cavallier, Princess Madeleine of Sweden and Chris O'Neill, Prince Amedeo of Belgium and Lili Rosboch, Prince Harry of Wales and Meghan Markle: Even in relatively recent marriages, the old rule has still been complied with, whether the husband or the wife was the blood royal. I expect Princess Maria Laura of Belgium will also remain in the UK, where her future husband is from, instead of returning to Belgium as her brother did.

[Prinsara]

Maria Laura is not and never will be third (and someday second) in line to the throne. Chris and Madeleine were in Sweden on and off before settling in the US. Harry and Meghan are now living in her country. And of course Joachim and Marie are now in France, while they would have preferred Denmark — but having a French spouse probably helped.

I think it's pretty plausible that if Isabella wanted to stay, she could convince a future spouse, male or female, to settle in Denmark.

But this is Joachim's thread, not his niece's, even if he's six and she's three.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Muhler

I'm not sure the Dutch model would work in DK. It's a option for sure, and something worth looking into. But it very much depends on what kind of professional career it is.
The public in DK is very touchy about members of the DRF being associated with anything controversial.
I think an acceptable and safe option would be a career as a civil servant or the military.
A senior DRF member being employed by a private company could very easily become controversial here.

That is a very good point. Even in the Netherlands, the professional activities of royals have incited controversy from time to time, see Prince Bernhard of Orange-Nassau.

But it seems the Queen is ready to risk some controversy. Not only are Prince Nikolai and Prince Felix being educated for commercial careers, but Prince Nikolai has even utilized his title for commercial advertising, presumably with the Queen's blessing.

Originally Posted by Muhler

And she became redundant as a spare before she reached middle age. I.e. by the early 1980's when Frederik and Joachim became teens, at which point Benedikte was 40 or so.

Originally Posted by Muhler

Whether we feel sympathy for Joachim or not, he nevertheless address a relevant issue: What do we do with the spares, once they are replaced as spares?

We are going to see it in Belgium, until Elisabeth there has children of her own and they are in their teens. [...]

Sorry, but I'm not clear on why you have drawn the line at their teens. If it is a matter of being a working royal, I would not anticipate that to happen until their mid-twenties. If it is a matter of being healthy enough that their long-term survival is ensured, I'm sure childhood mortality rates are adequately low in affluent western Europe that they can be counted from infancy.