General News about Joachim, Marie and Family Part 6: January 2021 - December 2023

[Muhler]

And no one is talking about stripping Benedikte of her apanage.
Yet, some would like to strip Joachim of his. - So, is it any wonder he address the issue of being a spare?

Benedikte married into status and wealth. Marrying one of the largest landowners in Germany and into a very prominent noble German family.
So she could maintain her affiliation with the DRF, while being able to secure her retirement, once she was no longer needed as a spare.
But more importantly, Benedikte could work for the DRF from a pretty much safe and uncontroversial position.
And she became redundant as a spare before she reached middle age. I.e. by the early 1980's when Frederik and Joachim became teens, at which point Benedikte was 40 or so.

I'm not sure the Dutch model would work in DK. It's a option for sure, and something worth looking into. But it very much depends on what kind of professional career it is.
The public in DK is very touchy about members of the DRF being associated with anything controversial.
I think an acceptable and safe option would be a career as a civil servant or the military.
A senior DRF member being employed by a private company could very easily become controversial here.

 

[Stefan]

(..)

but still i agree with Muhler. Nobody complains about Benedikte doing duties and getting money for it, but then she is long over retirement age which Joachim isn't.

 

[Prinsara]

The public in DK is very touchy about members of the DRF being associated with anything controversial.
I think an acceptable and safe option would be a career as a civil servant or the military.
A senior DRF member being employed by a private company could very easily become controversial here.

What if a spare wanted to do something like be a physician or an engineer or an academic? I assume that would be acceptable?

 

[CyrilVladisla]

If Princess Isabella of Denmark marries at a young age and she marries a foreign prince or foreign aristocrat who would continue to live in his native country, how much would she be helping out with royal duties in Denmark?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

If Princess Isabella of Denmark marries at a young age and she marries a foreign prince or foreign aristocrat who would continue to live in his native country, how much would she be helping out with royal duties in Denmark?

See the elder sons of Prince Joachim: they almost have no public engagements. I assume Denmark will see the same evolution as in all monarchies: a slimmer court with the focus on the present, the future and the former royal couples.

 

[Prinsara]

If Princess Isabella of Denmark marries at a young age and she marries a foreign prince or foreign aristocrat who would continue to live in his native country, how much would she be helping out with royal duties in Denmark?

-There aren't that many princes for her to marry, really, iirc. Especially if you take out her Greek cousins.
-And if she does like her other great-aunt (Muhler, what is the Danish word for great-aunt?) and marries an aristocrat, why would it not be that that aristocrat would not come and live in Denmark?
-Furthermore if she does go, she has two younger siblings who may be wanted to help out.

 

[Muhler]

What if a spare wanted to do something like be a physician or an engineer or an academic? I assume that would be acceptable?

Working for the state would be safest IMO, also as a researcher or engineer. But I would find it hard to see a senior royal work as say a state attorney. But the clergy would be fine.

If Princess Isabella of Denmark marries at a young age and she marries a foreign prince or foreign aristocrat who would continue to live in his native country, how much would she be helping out with royal duties in Denmark?

Not much, I imagine. But then we have Vincent, or perhaps rather Josephine as she enjoys being in the limelight.

-There aren't that many princes for her to marry, really, iirc. Especially if you take out her Greek cousins.
-And if she does like her other great-aunt (Muhler, what is the Danish word for great-aunt?) and marries an aristocrat, why would it not be that that aristocrat would not come and live in Denmark?
-Furthermore if she does go, she has two younger siblings who may be wanted to help out.

Great-aunt = grandtante. Great-uncle = grandonkel.

And while we are at it.
Great-grandfather = oldefar (which means oldest or most senior father.)
Great-grandmother = oldemor.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

-And if she does like her other great-aunt (Muhler, what is the Danish word for great-aunt?) and marries an aristocrat, why would it not be that that aristocrat would not come and live in Denmark?

Isn't it because the European royal families continue to conform to the old patrilineal rule that the wife settles in her husband's country and not the other way around, unless the wife is the heiress to the throne?

Prince Joachim and Marie Cavallier, Princess Madeleine of Sweden and Chris O'Neill, Prince Amedeo of Belgium and Lili Rosboch, Prince Harry of Wales and Meghan Markle: Even in relatively recent marriages, the old rule has still been complied with, whether the husband or the wife was the blood royal. I expect Princess Maria Laura of Belgium will also remain in the UK, where her future husband is from, instead of returning to Belgium as her brother did.

 

[Prinsara]

Maria Laura is not and never will be third (and someday second) in line to the throne. Chris and Madeleine were in Sweden on and off before settling in the US. Harry and Meghan are now living in her country. And of course Joachim and Marie are now in France, while they would have preferred Denmark — but having a French spouse probably helped.

I think it's pretty plausible that if Isabella wanted to stay, she could convince a future spouse, male or female, to settle in Denmark.

But this is Joachim's thread, not his niece's, even if he's six and she's three.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I'm not sure the Dutch model would work in DK. It's a option for sure, and something worth looking into. But it very much depends on what kind of professional career it is.
The public in DK is very touchy about members of the DRF being associated with anything controversial.
I think an acceptable and safe option would be a career as a civil servant or the military.
A senior DRF member being employed by a private company could very easily become controversial here.

That is a very good point. Even in the Netherlands, the professional activities of royals have incited controversy from time to time, see Prince Bernhard of Orange-Nassau.

But it seems the Queen is ready to risk some controversy. Not only are Prince Nikolai and Prince Felix being educated for commercial careers, but Prince Nikolai has even utilized his title for commercial advertising, presumably with the Queen's blessing.

And she became redundant as a spare before she reached middle age. I.e. by the early 1980's when Frederik and Joachim became teens, at which point Benedikte was 40 or so.

Whether we feel sympathy for Joachim or not, he nevertheless address a relevant issue: What do we do with the spares, once they are replaced as spares?

We are going to see it in Belgium, until Elisabeth there has children of her own and they are in their teens. [...]

Sorry, but I'm not clear on why you have drawn the line at their teens. If it is a matter of being a working royal, I would not anticipate that to happen until their mid-twenties. If it is a matter of being healthy enough that their long-term survival is ensured, I'm sure childhood mortality rates are adequately low in affluent western Europe that they can be counted from infancy.

 

[Muhler]

Sorry, but I'm not clear on why you have drawn the line at their teens. If it is a matter of being a working royal, I would not anticipate that to happen until their mid-twenties. If it is a matter of being healthy enough that their long-term survival is ensured, I'm sure childhood mortality rates are adequately low in affluent western Europe that they can be counted from infancy.

Around 13-15 actually.
It's a personal preference. By that age it should be clear to everyone, also the public, whether the child is physically, intellectually or mentally capable of taking over. Twenty might actually be better as some forms of mental illnesses like Schizophrenia usually starts to appear in the late teens.

But of course the later we draw the line, the longer the spare has to be active, or at least on stand-by.
In the case of say Norway that would mean Sverre would have to be a spare for another 30 years, assuming Ingrid have her first child at 30. By which time Sverre will be closing in on 50.
In DK it means Isabella will be the spare for another 35 years and men (Christian) often tend to be a little older than women before they become father. By which time she will be around 50.

So there are quite a few "Joachims" coming up.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Maria Laura is not and never will be third (and someday second) in line to the throne. Chris and Madeleine were in Sweden on and off before settling in the US. And Harry and Meghan are now living in her country.

Of course, but Princesses Madeleine and Benedikte were close to the throne, Princess Madeleine's settlement in the US appears to be permanent, and Prince Harry's move to the US was not the original plan, was controversial, and involved exceptional circumstances.

I think it's pretty plausible that if Isabella wanted to stay, she could convince a future spouse, male or female, to settle in Denmark.

Certainly, but I would also have thought it was plausible that Madeleine, Lili, and other royal brides could convince their spouses to settle in their countries. But as it turned out, nearly all European royal couples continue to conform to the patrilineal rule.

It would not be possible to apply the patrilineal rule to a same-sex spouse, and female aristocrats are not raised with the expectation that their domicile will take precedence over that of their spouse. The evidence suggests that male spouses marrying female foreigners are far less flexible.

But this is Joachim's thread, not his niece's, even if he's six and she's three.

Do you mean that you would prefer I move my reply to your comment about Isabella into Isabella's thread? There were six previous posts in this thread (including your post, to which I was replying) about a potential future role for Isabella, so it seemed appropriate to reply here.

But if you would like to continue this discussion in another thread, please feel free.

I think it's telling that Joachim keeps referring to himself as the "number two." He needs to come to grips with the fact that he's the "number six."

Are you referring to the line of succession? In my opinion, rank in the order of succession is not and should not be equated with importance. If the Queen were to abdicate she would not be the monarch nor in the line of succession, but I would hope she would not be treated as less important than Princess Athena.

That being said, I would place Prince Joachim at number four at highest, with the Queen, Crown Prince, and Crown Princess preceding him in importance as full-time working royals in the direct line.

 

[kalnel]

I was referring to the fact that he calls himself the "number two," which presumably refers to his place in the succession. He hasn't been second in line for 16 years, so I wonder if he's a little out of touch with where he stands at this point.

It's unfortunate for him if the Danish public wouldn't accept him working professionally as anything other than a soldier, civil servant, or cleric. It seems odd that they wouldn't, when the public has been so accepting of Queen Margrethe taking on professional artistic jobs alongside her royal duties.

IIRC, he has actually tried several jobs. For about 20 years, he worked on his estate at Schackenborg, but that didn't work out. Then he was going to run the vineyards in France, wasn't he? (I seem to remember reading they were sold.) Then he had that history TV program that was well received, but there was no follow up to it.

Those may or may not have been projects he wanted to take on, but at his age, you'd think he would have found his passion for something.

 

[Prinsara]

If Frederik has taken all this time to try and figure out how to be king (and that's with a far more massive support system in place), then I'm not sure why Joachim can't be afforded the same amount of time to figure out how to do something else.

Especially as they're both rather sensitive and tentative people, and I don't think finding a direction is as easy as it seems from outside the fishbowl.

 

[BriarRose]

Isn't it because the European royal families continue to conform to the old patrilineal rule that the wife settles in her husband's country and not the other way around, unless the wife is the heiress to the throne?

Prince Joachim and Marie Cavallier, Princess Madeleine of Sweden and Chris O'Neill, Prince Amedeo of Belgium and Lili Rosboch, Prince Harry of Wales and Meghan Markle: Even in relatively recent marriages, the old rule has still been complied with, whether the husband or the wife was the blood royal. I expect Princess Maria Laura of Belgium will also remain in the UK, where her future husband is from, instead of returning to Belgium as her brother did.

I don't believe any of those did so out of conformity to a rule. It is apparent that Joachim and Marie wanted to remain in Denmark.

Rather, job opportunities (and strong personal preferences) appear to be the driving forces for the couples mentioned. Not conformity with arcane rules.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I agree. It is just about choices in life. The brothers of the Dutch King have lived in the Netherlands, the USA, Belgium, France, the UK, just corrresponding with their stage of life (study, work) and opportunities at that moment. Likewise Mabel and Laurentien have lived in the Netherlands, in Japan, in Belgium, in the UK.

When we see the siblings and the children of the current Grand-Duke of Luxembourg: they stand and go all around the world just following their stage in life and following opportunities.

For a long time Prince Joachim indeed was effectively the only spare (Prince Christian still has ro reach adulthood and will probably focus on studies and military first). And Denmark was (and is) so generous to provide him an income (unlike the Dutch and the Luxbembourgian junior royals). So that his career so far is not so business-oriented is maybe because he is still with one leg in the old royal world (with an apanage and be a lord of the manor on Shackenborg) and with another leg in the new world (find a profession for yourself). It is not so strange that Joachim has a somewhat unclear position because no clear choices were needed.

We see the same in Belgium: Laurent and Astrid receive an income from the taxpayers. From the new generation only Elisabeth will receive money. That means that Elisabeth's siblings, and the children of Astrid and Laurent know they have no any other choice than to pursue an own career and earn their own money. A choice which was not needed for Joachim, Astrid and Laurent.

 

[iceflower]

Let us please stay on topic of this thread - news about Prince Joachim, Princess Marie and their children. For further topics threads like "The Future of the Danish Monarchy", "General Questions and Information about the Danish Royal Family" or "Members of the Royal Family and Line of Succession" can be used instead. Thank you!

 

[Tatiana Maria]

And for further comparisons of different royal families' strategies for spares, these threads could be used:

Future Roles of Royal Siblings
How Many Working Royals are Needed?

(..)

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

The DRF posting about the article makes me think it's extremely non-controversial and something the DRF's press department has had a fairly large hand in.

Without having read the interview, it sounds to me like the DRF has finally gotten around to addressing some of the statements that made J&M's interviews last year controversial. Them using a quote about his role within the firm to promote the interview especially feels like a statement in itself. Only problem about that, to me, is that a follow-up interview like this should've been done a lot sooner after the controversial interviews last. Another example of how the DRF (namely their press department) is completely inept at damage control.

To me, Joachim has always been Henrik 2.0, super privileged but still whining at the age of 50 about life not being fair.
But finally court understands that they have to contain his complaints to avoid damage to the monarchy. Henrik was given a free pass for various reasons but this is the end of Joachim airing his thoughts unfiltered to the world. Thank God.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

Hopefully! Although I doubt them setting things straight, so to speak, in a controlled interview necessarily means they will have vented to the press in a more unfiltered fashion for the last time – or rather, I'll believe it when I see it

If Frederik has taken all this time to try and figure out how to be king (and that's with a far more massive support system in place), then I'm not sure why Joachim can't be afforded the same amount of time to figure out how to do something else.

Especially as they're both rather sensitive and tentative people, and I don't think finding a direction is as easy as it seems from outside the fishbowl.

I don't think their situations are comparable at all. The vast majority of the "figuring out" Frederik has dealt with has been mental. How to mentally prepare himself for his future as a king.

Joachim's figuring out has been more practical. What exactly should his work be? He didn't want to be a farmer. Fair enough, that was definitely sprung on him. But that decision left him with a very sparse amount of engagements that he didn't seem to want to up in the years that went between quitting Schackenborg and embarking on the military course in France. A course that he, judging from the interviews he and Marie have given since, didn't want to attend in the first place.

While Frederik's figuring out definitely impacted his work, it never impacted his workload. Meanwhile Joachim's core issue is his workload. The notion that a 52-year-old man has no idea at all what he'd like to work with being a little absurd to me aside, I think if Joachim hadn't essentially treated his "time to figure out" as gap years with full benefits, people would've been a lot more sympathetic to him gradually finding and moving into a new path.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I think we should not be too hard on Prince Joachim. Had he -from day one- be insisted on completely supporting himself, to pursue an own career, to make his free choices, then he would not have been in this position.

It is the half-hearted amorph situation that he is an old-style royal receiving an annual apanage of 530.000 Euro but hardly has a royal agenda. This is the same situation as Astrid and Laurent of Belgium: 320.000 Euro per year but hardly a royal agenda.

At the same time they can not pursue an own career or enterprise because they receive a big load of money every year: would anyone of us voluntarily give up 530.000 or 320.000 Euro per year?

That is why the situation of the younger generations who simply know that there is no money tree awaiting for them is more clear: they know they have to find something to make their living, like we all have to do.

 

[JR76]

I don't have a lot of sympathy for him trying to figure out his role at this point. He's 50, not 30, and his brother has had heirs for 16 years. Joachim isn't in a position like his great-uncle Prince Knud, where the laws suddenly changed when he was in his 50s and he found his future changed completely. He's had decades to sort himself out.

But, I'm sure there are things behind the scenes we don't know about. I hope for his sake that he is able to pursue whatever he wants to be and however he wants to live.

The spin that Prince Knud was suddenly displaced by his niece after an adult life spent preparing to become heir is, although a common one, not true. Although it took Queen Ingrid unusually long time, for the period, to conceive once she did there was no indication that she wouldn't have sons. It wasn't until the late 40s, only a few years before the Order of Succession was altered, that it became clear that she wouldn't have more children giving Knud only a few years as the heir. European history is full of heirs that spent much longer in that position before being displaced for different reasons.
Like with Knud I have very little sympathy for Joachim. He's always known that his role would become less important as time went by and should have prepared for it. Even if, as I believe happened, his parents did think there was a major role for him to play at the court of King Frederik he should have realized that wasn't possible and prepared for the opposite himself. That said I like both Joachim and Marie and find it regrettable that the times seems to demand of monarchies that they slim down to the bare minimum.

 

[eya]

Princess Marie celebrates her 46th Birthday today

https://www.instagram.com/p/CZoFWbcDAy4/

 

[iceflower]

Prince Joachim and Princess Marie attended a private view at Sotheby’s in Paris yesterday, March 19:


** instagram post **

 

[Muhler]

Nina Wedell?

The noble Wedell family is closely associated with the DRF, so no surprise there. Don't know about the rest.

 

[iceflower]

Prince Joachim watched the match of Holger Rune of Denmark against Casper Ruud of Norway on day 11 of the French Open 2022, Roland-Garros 2022, in Paris yesterday, June 1. The royal support though didn’t help Casper Ruud has won.


** Pic 1 ** Pic 2 ** gettyimages gallery **

 

[eya]

Prince Joachim with his family attends at the Tour De France in Cahors today 22 July

By the Palace

https://www.instagram.com/p/CgUR8lQjUn7/
https://www.instagram.com/p/CgUf2GcjVOk/

Articles

https://www.billedbladet.dk/kongeli...-i-gang-joachim-og-marie-har-boernene-med-til
https://www.billedbladet.dk/kongeli...rins-joachim-hylder-vingegaard-i-cahors-marie

 

[Muhler]

I'm a little surprised to see Felix with J&M, but perhaps Felix has gone Tour-crazy like half the Danes these days?
According to the article I posted above Felix was to celebrate his birthday with friends only.
But perhaps there was a change of plans or he will be celebrating tonight, i.e. about now.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Here is a new thread where the above discussion of royal women taking up their husbands' countries of residence can be continued.
Royalty/Nobility and Gender

The spin that Prince Knud was suddenly displaced by his niece after an adult life spent preparing to become heir is, although a common one, not true. Although it took Queen Ingrid unusually long time, for the period, to conceive once she did there was no indication that she wouldn't have sons. It wasn't until the late 40s, only a few years before the Order of Succession was altered, that it became clear that she wouldn't have more children giving Knud only a few years as the heir. European history is full of heirs that spent much longer in that position before being displaced for different reasons.

You're right, but there is a curious discrepancy in the fact that Prince Knud and his son Prince Ingolf's seven years of expectation of succeeding to the throne was seven years longer than for Prince Carl Philip of Sweden, for whom there was never any expectation that he would inherit the crown, but it is the latter who is commonly spun as being "robbed" of the throne. (This has been discussed at the thread Counts Ingolf (b. 1940) and Christian (1942-2013) of Rosenborg and Families and can be continued there.)

 

[eya]

" Prince Joachim, Princess Marie, Prince Henrik, and Princess Athena had dinner with family friends at Restaurant Fabio in Copenhagen yesterday, ahead of the Copenhagen Historic Grand Prix this weekend"

https://twitter.com/x/status/1555941756042092544