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  #101  
Old 08-12-2021, 06:24 AM
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Prince Joachim recovered so well from his stroke and what a happy family.
After a dificult divorce our Marie gave his what he missed a lot of love and comprehension.
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  #102  
Old 08-12-2021, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
In the glare of hindsight, it would have been better had Joachim, along with the rest of the DRF, started to rethink his entire role and royal status after having sold Schackenborg. And perhaps looked at options to either leave completely or in other ways lessen his role within the DRF.
However, I'm not sure that option was open at the time.
PH was still around and I don't think he would have looked with kind eyes on Joachim opting out.
Nor am I sure QMII would have understood why that should be a good idea.
And Frederik, he still had young children and I think he felt that he could use Joachim's support.

And even if the thought had occurred to any of them, I doubt any of them would have suggested any such thing. Not after Joachim gone through this public humiliation of selling Schackenborg.

Even if Joachim suggested it himself, I think the collective reaction from the rest of the family would have been: "Nonsense. Of course you have a role to fulfill. Of course we need you."

Another thing is that it wasn't a part of the bargain that Joachim should leave once he was no longer a de facto spare.
He had kept his part of the bargain. He had taken over a manor as he was told. He took the education he was told. He took on royal obligations while looking after Schackenborg, as was expected of him. - And keep in mind that for a number of years he and Alexandra acted as the CP-couple.
So I don't think the thought of him being sacked or declared redundant or having his apanage reduced, due to public pressure, was fair in his eyes.

So yes, things should have been done, things could have been done, things should have been explained and options should have been explored - but they weren't.
So, perhaps as a direct consequence of that, Joachim for a few years and for reasons we can only speculate about, didn't do that much and more importantly didn't reinvent himself and his role.

Joachim has been spared the big storm this time, mainly because people have had other things on their minds recently, Corona.
But that state of affairs will not continue.
So IMO the DRF might just as well start working out what Joachim's status and future should be.
Unless J&M decides to remain in France or move to another job say at the Defense Command or NATO HQ, they have 2½ year tops to work it out.

BTW. Once Joachim has finished his tour in Paris he is likely to be promoted to major general. And including pension, perks and an expense account, that amounts to roughly 35-45 % of Joachim's apanage (which is not taxed), before taxes.
Stepping down or leaving altogether weren't the only options. If he'd stepped up his engagements in 2014, he might not even be in the situation he is in today (one he is clearly unsatisfied with). I don't subscribe to the idea that Denmark should be too small to have 5-6 full-time working royals.

Besides, since J&M themselves claim the decision to move them abroad was made for them, it quite clearly shows the DRF has been thinking about if not minimising his role, then finding a new role for him, so I'm not sure I understand why you think they would've been opposed to it around 2015-16?

As for the bargain, as mentioned above, I still think it's far-fetched to pretend his only option was to leave, but additionally, his situation – and as such the grounds on which the bargain had been made – had clearly changed. It'd simply be naive of him to think it's even remotely fair – or part of the bargain – to maintain the same sparse engagement count after having sold off Schackenborg.

If I held a position that originally consisted of two primary tasks but then abandoned one of those task, there's simply no way I'd still get paid going forward for doing two task Is that fair since I've previously put such great effort into the abandoned task? Maybe not but I'm not sure my employer cares a lot about that.
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  #103  
Old 08-12-2021, 05:55 PM
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Hmm, I don't believe you can compare yourself to Joachim. Somehow I doubt your parents dictated your career choice, while at the same time making it clear you and your spouse should work part time for the family business. And if anything happened to your older sibling you should step in and take over the business.
So yes, Joachim kept his part of the agreement.

Nor do I believe I ruled out other options than Joachim leaving and cutting down on engagement.
I too can envision something Joachim - with the wisdom of hindsight - could have done: Focusing on something specific. Finding some topic that would be his field only. Something he could very much get involved with and make it his project. - Akin to the Invictus Games, albeit on a local scale.
No matter what it was, it would have meant that Joachim would not have had to compete with other DRF members about the work there was, because I maintain that at the time there wasn't enough meaningful jobs around to increase the number of DRF appearances, not without diminishing the "mystique" of royalty.
- The royals must not become a common sight when on the job. They have to be something special.

I doubt the DRF planned for Joachim to become a military attache. I think that was much more a military-political option the government(s) had been working on, and here Joachim so to speak got drafted.
So no, I don't believe the DRF - that is QMII and Frederik - had something in mind for Joachim. And certainly not as early as 2016.
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  #104  
Old 08-12-2021, 07:11 PM
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Yeah, no, I'm still not up for pitying someone born into so much wealth and privilege for being born into wealth and privilege We all have to deal with different life situations. My point is that yes, those were his conditions for a number of years but he also got (and still gets) compensated richly for it. Regardless of your situation, it's simply obscene to assume you can go from full-time to half-time and be paid the same wage.

There's absolutely no need for "competition" about work. The DRF, bless them, isn't overworked and there are heaps of areas not covered by QMII, (Henrik,) Frederik and Mary that he could've delved right into.

Yeah, no, I disagree. The (institution the) DRF may not have had him becoming a military attaché in particular in mind but I think it's pretty obvious there's been discussions between the court and the government – perhaps even inquiries by the court – in terms of a role for Joachim.
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  #105  
Old 08-12-2021, 07:42 PM
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So no pity for people who have money and privileges if their psyche hurts? It's a sentiment you have expressed before and I don't share it. I refuse to share it.

Why shouldn't he still get his apanage? Be compensated as you put it.
AFAIK there are no conditions saying a recipient of apanage must work an X number of hours a year.
So Joachim adhered to the agreement.
So for that matter did Alexandra. She too got an apanage. Mainly to ensure Nikolai and Felix would grow in conditions befitting their status - that a quote by a leading politician. (Was it Poul Nyrup?) But it was her money. In a sense you can claim that her apanage was also for "services rendered."
It wasn't my impression that she was that willing to give up her apanage BTW, but she did. Which was a wise move.
- So the argument about apanage is based on a diffuse foundation, because there are no set rules. Merely a public and personal sentiment. A symbolic view if you prefer, because the amounts are peanuts in comparison to so many other examples of state employees who get a salary that is remarkably high, also when they screw up.

Knowing that will provoke you, I'll be more serious again and agree with you.
Yes, it is certain the government sounded out QMII in regards to sending Joachim to France. Or much more likely, the government expressed a desire for Joachim to go to France. Hence why I used the expression that Joachim was "drafted."
Joachim is a DRF member, the government has to sound out QMII first, before urging Joachim to apply for the position at military academy.
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  #106  
Old 08-13-2021, 12:16 PM
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That's definitely not what I said but it's also not the first time you've twisted my words to make it sound as though that's what I said An unfortunate habit, it seems.

To reiterate: I don't pity people born into wealth and privilege for being born into wealth and privilege. As in: I can sympathise with Joachim for feeling forced into a particular life path but I'm not gonna pity him simply for being born a royal with all the privileges that comes along.

I'm not saying he shouldn't receive an apanage at all. But I am saying is that his apanage should reflect the amount of work he performs. I'm not sure Alexandra is the best comparison. It may be your perception that she felt forced into giving it up but at least she had the situational awareness to actually nip it in the bud

And I'm still very confident the DRF were the ones who made inquiries about a position for Joachim
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  #107  
Old 08-13-2021, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
And there were indeed a number of years where Joachim was in a kind of limbo, that are difficult to explain.

I'm still willing to bet on a depression.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
So no pity for people who have money and privileges if their psyche hurts?
How do you know he has/had a depression and that his psyche hurts? Or is that just your own theory?
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  #108  
Old 08-13-2021, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Archduchess Zelia View Post
That's definitely not what I said but it's also not the first time you've twisted my words to make it sound as though that's what I said An unfortunate habit, it seems.

To reiterate: I don't pity people born into wealth and privilege for being born into wealth and privilege. As in: I can sympathise with Joachim for feeling forced into a particular life path but I'm not gonna pity him simply for being born a royal with all the privileges that comes along.

I'm not saying he shouldn't receive an apanage at all. But I am saying is that his apanage should reflect the amount of work he performs. I'm not sure Alexandra is the best comparison. It may be your perception that she felt forced into giving it up but at least she had the situational awareness to actually nip it in the bud

And I'm still very confident the DRF were the ones who made inquiries about a position for Joachim

But that's what you said.
You said very clearly in your last post: "I'm still not up for pitying someone born into so much wealth and privilege..." (Because X,Y, Z)
But "I'm still not up for pitying someone born into so much wealth and privilege" is the key sentence.

And you have time and time again used expressions like "whining", "complaining", "moaning" and "suck it up" also when I have suggested that he may have suffered from a depression. I do not recall you having shown any pity, compassion or understanding - empathy if you prefer - for Joachim in these long discussions in this thread.
Nor have you ever tried, to the best of my recollection, to reverse your view and acknowledge that Joachim's psyche (as I put it) might hurt.

Fair enough, then let me for once get a very straight answer from you: Do you feel sympathy for Joachim, despite him being born into wealth and privileges?
It's a simply and honest question. Yes or no.

And I'll give you a challenge, if you are up for it. It's very educational actually.
Will you be the Devil's Advocate and defend Joachim as best as you can in this thread, with me going on the attack?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic View Post
How do you know he has/had a depression and that his psyche hurts? Or is that just your own theory?
A qualified guess. He sure didn't feel great after the divorce from Alexandra. (I refer to a couple of reports of Joachim being drunk in public. Reports we didn't hear before or since.)
And I should be extremely surprised if he wasn't down, as in really down, after the sale of Schackenborg. And Joachim is a very proud man.
So I don't think my pet-theory about Joachim possibly having a depression, is in any way farfetched.
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  #109  
Old 08-13-2021, 08:56 PM
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Why lie though? I even italicised the actual key sentence (bolded underneath) in my original post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archduchess Zelia View Post
Yeah, no, I'm still not up for pitying someone born into so much wealth and privilege for being born into wealth and privilege (...)
No "because x, y, z". You simply cannot take a sentence out of its original context and then just place it into your own to make it fit your narrative or idea of what I mean. What you're doing there is on par with me writing "I don't like footballers who dive" only for you to be like "oh, so you don't like footballers?!" Please don't stoop so low.

A quick search will tell you I've used the phrase "suck it up" once on here, in a SRF thread. I've not used "whining" about Joachim but have used "whine" once. "Moan"/"moaning" I've used exactly twice, once being in the same post I used "whine" As for "complaining"... but isn't he?

And I've explained to you countless of times why I'm not gonna excuse Joachim on the basis of a hypothesis formed on outside observations (a sardonic person would say observations through the press but I'm obviously not a sardonic person ). A hypothesis that Joachim himself has never been even close to confirming – either directly or indirectly. I understand that's how you rationalise his behaviour but please also understand that that does not make it a fact (and that not sharing your theory doesn't make someone unempathetic).

The devil has multiple advocates. No need for me to work pro bono

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
A qualified guess. He sure didn't feel great after the divorce from Alexandra. (I refer to a couple of reports of Joachim being drunk in public. Reports we didn't hear before or since.)
And I should be extremely surprised if he wasn't down, as in really down, after the sale of Schackenborg. And Joachim is a very proud man.
So I don't think my pet-theory about Joachim possibly having a depression, is in any way farfetched.
Letting loose after a divorce hardly warrants a diagnosis for depression. And Joachim has been very open about how tough the sale of Schackenborg was on him. He's generally just been very open in interviews these past years. And there's been heaps of awareness about mental health in the public – his own sister-in-law is one of the most vocal champions of mental well-being. Why wouldn't he also be open about a depression?
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  #110  
Old 08-13-2021, 11:55 PM
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Okay, I think we've played pseudo-doctor for enough time now.

Please refrain from speculating and outright diagnosing people you do not know with medical conditions. Unless you are someone's doctor, there is no "qualified guesses". Further posts doing so will be deleted entirely.
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  #111  
Old 08-14-2021, 03:56 AM
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(..)
I think we have explored the possibilities for Joachim's future and the alternatives that in hindsight could have been on the table when Joachim moved out of Schackenborg, sufficiently for this time around.
Based on the very few hard facts available it cannot amount to much more than opinions, speculations and guesses.
After the sale of Schackenborg Joachim's workload in a DRF-context was reduced.
Two obvious reasons being:
A) That he didn't want to take on more work - for whatever reason.
B) That something happened - that for whatever reason meant that he did not take or could not take on more engagements.
Based on what I believe we know about his character, his sense of obligation and previous workload, I prefer option B.
(..)

It's easy to be critical of someone. But trying to understand someone is more challenging.
Just as with the other DRF-members I can easily rip Joachim apart, if I wanted to. No problem. But I prefer trying to understand him.
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  #112  
Old 08-14-2021, 04:54 AM
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Quote:
It's easy to be critical of someone. But trying to understand someone is more challenging.
Just as with the other DRF-members I can easily rip Joachim apart, if I wanted to. No problem. But I prefer trying to understand him.

thank you for your posts about Joachim...
like you I see him as someone serious, honest and concerned about doing the right thing... as he has been the subject of much criticism for years, he must have suffered a lot...
born a prince, he couldn't do what he wanted, like any other man, without being watched and judged all the time, but whenever something went wrong in his life, he was the only one to be accused (divorce etc...)
sorry for my bad english...
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  #113  
Old 08-14-2021, 03:24 PM
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The ungoing personal argument has been removed, please use the private message system instead in case you wish to continue your personal dissensions. Thank you.
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  #114  
Old 08-17-2021, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
(..)
After the sale of Schackenborg Joachim's workload in a DRF-context was reduced.
Two obvious reasons being:
A) That he didn't want to take on more work - for whatever reason.
B) That something happened - that for whatever reason meant that he did not take or could not take on more engagements.
Based on what I believe we know about his character, his sense of obligation and previous workload, I prefer option B.
.
Whatever Joachim's motivations are -- who knows? -- I'm curious why finding a "role" for him seems so difficult and controversial. The Danish royal family has such an excellent role model for siblings of the monarch/heir in Princess Benedikte. She seems to take on a lot of engagements and work hard for her charities, yet she always works in a way that supports the Queen, rather than competing with her.

Is there reason why having Joachim build a meaningful career through royal duties -- as his aunt has -- would be undesirable to the royal court?
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  #115  
Old 08-18-2021, 07:06 AM
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Princess Marie was in Denmark when the Queen was in Cayx. Will she see the Queen who is back in Denmark?
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  #116  
Old 08-18-2021, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by kalnel View Post
Whatever Joachim's motivations are -- who knows? -- I'm curious why finding a "role" for him seems so difficult and controversial. The Danish royal family has such an excellent role model for siblings of the monarch/heir in Princess Benedikte. She seems to take on a lot of engagements and work hard for her charities, yet she always works in a way that supports the Queen, rather than competing with her.

Is there reason why having Joachim build a meaningful career through royal duties -- as his aunt has -- would be undesirable to the royal court?
That is a good question. I wonder if it is because Princess Benedikte has only lived in Denmark on a part-time basis since her marriage and perhaps for that reason the expectations (and scrutiny) from the public are more modest?
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  #117  
Old 08-18-2021, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by kalnel View Post
Whatever Joachim's motivations are -- who knows? -- I'm curious why finding a "role" for him seems so difficult and controversial. The Danish royal family has such an excellent role model for siblings of the monarch/heir in Princess Benedikte. She seems to take on a lot of engagements and work hard for her charities, yet she always works in a way that supports the Queen, rather than competing with her.

Is there reason why having Joachim build a meaningful career through royal duties -- as his aunt has -- would be undesirable to the royal court?
https://www.bt.dk/royale/dronning-ma...billede-det-er

The royal reporter on BT, wrote about QMII's visit to Chateau Cayx - without our Marie being present. - He speculates - and I emphasize speculate (because that's something this reporter is in the habit of doing) that this might very well be a meeting where QMII and Joachim are discussing various aspects of the misgivings Joachim has expressed in regards to his status, perhaps also his future role (if any of course) and his apanage.

That has been followed up by an article today, that IMO is no less speculative.

https://www.bt.dk/royale/danskerne-k...e-med-apanagen

- I do however think that the idea of Joachim and QMII meeting in person - and staying in the same place) would be a good opportunity for the two of them to have a good and frank discussion.
And indeed it would be great if some sort of solution was found. No matter what is it. Whether Joachim stays on as an active royal upon returning from France. Whether he will gradually fade away as an active royal or whether there will be a third option - perhaps J&M will decide to stay in France. Perhaps with Joachim focusing on a private career of some sort.
Because as I have pointed out in most of my previous post, the current situation cannot continue. There has to be an elaboration of the misgivings Joachim has expressed. There also has to be an outline of his future role.
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  #118  
Old 08-18-2021, 01:59 PM
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What is it about the current situation that can't continue? (I'm genuinely curious, not taking issue with your comment.)

I get the impression that there are two issues in play. First is Joachim's satisfaction with his assignments. Other than generating bad publicity for the royal family when he complains in interviews, that's really a personal matter, isn't it?

Second, there's his appanage. I guess the question there is whether Danish taxpayers view that as "payment for services" or more of an annuity attached to his royal status. If people are expecting a certain level of services, Joachim obviously will need to act accordingly.

When I've read excerpts from his interviews, I've been struck by how he continues to describe himself as "second in line." He hasn't been second for almost 16 years -- and he's a much more removed sixth in line today.

Although I can imagine it must be frustrating if he's not getting clear signals from the royal house about what expectations they have of him, it sounds like he may need to recalibrate his own thinking about where he stands.
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  #119  
Old 08-18-2021, 02:13 PM
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It all boils down to Joachim expressing his dissatisfaction in regards to his position.
So he has to explain what he means. And in continuation of that also envision what he and the DRF see as his future role and status.
Had he not said anything in regards to his position and status, the situation regarding his status would have remained the same.

- It's no secret that some Danes believe he should give up his apanage while working as Defense Attache.
Some also view his misgivings in a less that positive light.
But no matter what he does raise some good questions.

I'm not sure I can explain it better than this.
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  #120  
Old 08-18-2021, 02:48 PM
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When you say you think he has to explain himself, what do you think is at risk if he doesn't?

Do you think his comments (or his silence) jeopardize the entire DRF? Or is it more that it hurts his popularity and potentially the willingness of Danes to continue paying his appanage?

I'm still trying to understand how and why Joachim's status became so controversial. I get that some people may question whether his contributions to society are worth what he receives in the appanage. But, there seems to be another layer to all this. Is there a concern that the royal court is mistreating him? Or, is there a sense that he's just pouting because he doesn't get enough attention?

Or maybe there's something else I'm missing? (And again, I'm not taking issue with anything anyone has written. I'm just trying to delve into it a little and understand things better.)
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