General News about Joachim, Marie and Family Part 6: January 2021 - December 2023


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Archduchess Zelia said:
The DRF does have a tendency not to deal with problems until they're standing square in the middle of them, I'll give Joachim that. (For example, the primogeniture was changed but they still haven't got a solution for the consequences of it. As it is right now, Isabella, who presumably will function as a spare, isn't able to pass on any titles while her younger brother and three male cousins, provided they're given permission to marry, all theoretically are allowed to pass on theirs. This could have been dealt with when they introduced the Monpezat titles but they were only made hereditary in the male line.)

But I will also say that Joachim and Marie had a good 5 years from moving to Copenhagen till he was admitted to the military course in France where they could've helped shape their own roles within the family. That could've been finding positions (not unlike Joachim's current role) that they actually wanted, stepping up their amount of duties, or reducing their allowance to mirror their relatively sparse amount of engagements. Given the media attention especially surrounding Alexandra's apanage, I think it would've been very naive to assume they could've just gone on "as usual" after the move to Copenhagen.

I maintain that privately saying no to either the course or the subsequent position would have been a much more respectful solution than accepting only to repeatedly do interviews leaving no doubt that they're in Paris against their will. No matter how you twist or turn it, that gives off the impression that they're complaining. Especially considering how he's actually immensely overpaid by receiving his apanage instead of the usual wage for his position.
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He can work and have a job,doing something really worthwhile instead of messing things up over nothing,nada,Joachim,you´ve got to move your behind to create something worthwhile for yourself,so many worthwhile causes and highlights bringing in your position and benefitting to so many others.Your lack of creativity in this respect is appalling.But you´re growing into a grumpy silly old fart of a prince appears the rigeur..Shame on you,come on,get a move on!You owe it,you owe it to your mother and to Denmark.
 
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lucien said:
You can not,in any which way,compare the Danish Royal Family to something as vulgar as an american company..You can´t.Next!
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I didn’t. You can comply, and tolerate it, or you can refuse, and live with the consequences. And here I was concerned that I would injure the feelings of people living in Baton Rouge or Baltimore!

And I most assuredly was not comparing the DRF to any American company; I was comparing responses to the wishes of one’s employer when they differ from one’s own wishes. There is no BigCorp to my knowledge, vulgar or otherwise. At one time, however, IBM was said to stand for I’ve Been Moved.
 
An analysis on BT based on J&M's misgivings and the future of the DRF:
https://www.bt.dk/royale/bts-royale-korrespondent-her-er-fremtidens-kongehus

The journalists basically says that this is the future of the DRF, short and sweet: https://bt.bmcdn.dk/media/cache/res...23746293-hkh-prins-christian-konfirmation.jpg
No more, no less.
- I don't agree. I believe Isabella will have a role as well.

I disagree with the premises of the article that J&M are redundant and as such are being sidelined, and that that is predominantly being masterminded by Mary, who is becoming the de facto matriarch of the DRF. - And doing a good job, the journalists emphasize in this article and other articles and interviews I have noticed.
I disagree, because sidelining or outing J&M would be out of character of Mary to the extent of what I know of her. It would also mean that Frederik and QMII have no say. Frederik is no simpleton, and Joachim is after all his brother. And QMII may be old, but she is still sharp! I cannot see the two of them dumping J&M.
So I don't buy that theory.

I do however believe in the DRF undergoing a structural change, both in regards to more and more influence being transferred to M&F but also in the necessity of reducing the number of active royals, which includes M&F's children.
That may be a part of Joachim's misgivings? Perhaps he feels that he has no say in that process?

Anyway, that was just to give a brief overview, because the board rules cannot allow for a full translation, so I have only translated these excerpts:
25 guests "suits the DRF, the CP-couple have in mind for the future.
It has to be slimmed down.
Power is already centered around the the Crown Prince and the Crown Princess, even though Queen Margrethe is our Regent (here as another word for Monarch). Mary has over time established her position as the future matriarch of the DRF. She is the one in charge and she is doing it well. She's the one who comes up with the best quotes..."

The issue about J&M's interview was not addressed today, as it shouldn't be on such a day.

"... where they (J&M) once and for all makes it clear that their position within the DRF is "complicated" and that Joachim feels the same dissatisfaction as his father, Prince Henrik.
The interview with Prince Joachim and Princess Marie has thrown Denmark into a new debate about the future role of Prince Joachim within the DRF. Nothing suggests that he is a wanted asset anymore, but Crown Prince Frederik and Crown Princess Mary will have to address the criticism by Prince Joachim.
Because Joachim feels he is let down..."

So far J&M will remain in Paris for the next three years, but at some point this issue needs to be addressed, writes the journalist.

"... Nothing indicates that Crown Princess Mary has a key-role in store for her brother-in-law. On the contrary. Saturday she presented her royal house on the stairs of Fredensborg Palace."

- Frederik, Mary and Christian.

----------

It's an interesting perspective, I think. Even though I don't agree on J&M being steamrolled, even by a "usurping" (albeit competent) Mary.
That's drama IMO.
I can however believe in thoughtlessness. I think most of us have been guilty in taking a decision before properly consulting those it affects. Perhaps that was what happened?
 
Difficult to take that article serious at all when the journalist is trying to force a narrative that Mary is somehow in charge of the DRF. I think that type of narrative is demeaning to both QMII, Frederik and Mary herself. And I sincerely hope there's no correlation between the forcing of a such narrative and the fact that the author is the Danish journalist who is closest to J&M.

I also disagree that they're planning to slim down the monarchy. That makes sense in the case of the BRF that has an overwhelming amount of members, many of which . But the DRF currently has 14 members. 6 of those are children. 4 have, since the day Christian was born, not been expected to have an official role within the monarchy. The DRF is already a slimmed-down monarchy and there's no need for further slimming down as that will happen naturally.

As for the suggestion that... big-scale celebrations with international royals attending will end with QMII? I'd say that's just laughable – even very small monarchies such as the Norwegian one do the occasional pump and circumstance :cool:
 
How a French magazine Point de Vue interview , planned certainly before the Duke of Edinburgh passed away, may be A State Affaire in Denmark.
 
With all the Prince Henrik drama, it's really laughable that J&M still give these kind of interviews. In life, you can't always get what you want, not even a royal, and, like the spare in UK, give conditions to the hand that feeds you.

After having failed in other fields, Joachim now is a career soldier and has to follow the rules of the job. They still are super privileged therefore I especially dislike the comments of Marie. Moaning about the fact that she had other plans, she should refrain from commenting on the CP family as they are beyond comparison. She should have learned that by now. Whatever their relations are, it is not Marie's position to indirectly cause some smoke when she knows that the public will believe that there could be fire.
 
Nordic said:
BT popped over to Paris to meet the "frustrated" Joachim...

https://www.bt.dk/royale/bt-moeder-prins-joachim-i-paris-vores-rolle-i-kongehusene-er-ikke-defineret

"I talked about the frustration I have because I am one of many (nr) two's in Europe. Our role in the royal houses is not defined, "Prince Joachim told B.T. "

But he hasn't been a nr 2 for 15 years now?...
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But isn't the job of number 2 helping the monarch and heir in the activities of the Royal House?
These statements by Prince Joachim remind me of his father, Prince Henrik, who never accepted his role at the Royal House.
I always thought that Prince Joachim was satisfied with his role at the Royal House.
 
I believe he referred to himself as spare.

Anyway, it's annoying that he doesn't elaborate.

I can understand he won't do it the middle of the street, but Joachim needs to explain exactly what his misgivings are, soon, otherwise it will lead to a lot of needless speculation.
And for Joachim to be compared to another spare, (we all know who!) who is currently babbling away and shooting himself in the foot on a daily basis.

Talk about it, get it out in the open, so we the public can debate and agree or disagree, but do talk about it!
The cat is out of the bag, and it won't go back.
 
I agree Muhler. Him and Marie in past interviews needed to be more clear. Is the job in Paris working out? If they were forced, who forced them? What are their plans? Hard decisions need to be made, but at this stage in their lives they need to take on personal responsibility.

What I did find interesting in the article is this part. Distancing himself from calling Harry's decision brave?

"But he would like to emphasize that the interview with Point de Vue was made before Oprah Winfrey's interview with Prince Harry, which aired on 7 March.*Thus, Prince Joachim reveals that the interview with him and Princess Marie is several months back.
This is important because Prince Joachim calls Prince Harry "brave" and says he has great respect for him.*Now those quotes must be seen in the light of the fact that Prince Joachim at the time did not know about the interview, where the duke couple of Sussex to that extent criticize the British royal house."
 
It is what I wrote . Point de Vue had to Post Prince Philip Duke of Edinburg passing away, his funerals etc... and then printed the interview of Joachim and Marie who was several weeks ago!
Prince Joachim should not answer the question about Prince Harry !
 
To me it sounds like the job in Paris and the move is not working out or they feel they not being treated fairly.
 
Really really sad, but still I think Joachim simply did not make his way in so many ways and now blames his royal roots for it.
Who asked or told him to become a farmer, start a military training, rush into his first marriage, divorce, ruin his farm.......
Time to reflect, take responsibilities and make one's living!

As a Dane it's nothing new to hear him complaining, did Harry encourage him and why now distance from calling him "brave"? At least some of Harry's accusations are clear and addressed (not saying it is fair) , Joachim&Mary's complaints are indiscriminately which makes it difficult to understand.
What I saw at the Henrik's funeral Marie looked deeply moved and maybe J&M situation got worse after H had passed. But telling it now, years after and comparing to him, even generalising to other spares ? Wooh- another prince starting to go wild, a couple wanting to change a royal court? Let's hope he won't harm his brother's reputation once his reign starts. I think respect for his mother might stop him from more at the moment.

Strictly speaking, since Nikolai's birth back in 1999, Joachim was free to do whatever he wanted, he could have abdicated and leave the reign to his firstborn after his brothers reign IF Frederick had had no children and he himself had other plans.
So why complain now, it's been almost 22 years, 15 since his nephew was born.

The problem is Joachim seems to have had no plans and still hasn't.
And unfortunately his wife is no help, wonder if J. has got close friends, one to get him down to earth would help.
I thought he is simply unlucky like some of us making wrong decisions,
but the more he complains the more he looks ungrateful bitter guy and this is certainly nothing the danish court needs in the future.
 
:previous: It was pointed out that Joachim's comments were made ahead of Meghan (and Harry)'s interview with Oprah, so he was reflecting on Harry stepping back in 2020 not on their accusations over het last few months.
 
Somebody said:
:previous: It was pointed out that Joachim's comments were made ahead of Meghan (and Harry)'s interview with Oprah, so he was reflecting on Harry stepping back in 2020 not on their accusations over het last few months.
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I am aware of this ;-) does not change what I posted
 
Stepping back is one thing, others continuing to foot the bill for one's lifestyle is another. Maybe Joachim is angry that now he actually has to work for a living and his army job is as demanding for him as it would be for everybody else. There are jobs and there are jobs, maybe he got one of the jobs who are usually reserved for the non royal working class.
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
Stepping back is one thing, others continuing to foot the bill for one's lifestyle is another. Maybe Joachim is angry that now he actually has to work for a living and his army job is as demanding for him as it would be for everybody else. There are jobs and there are jobs, maybe he got one of the jobs who are usually reserved for the non royal working class.
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Yes, though his "wages" should make him more humble.
What I really don't understand is why they do not enjoy Paris,
Marie is french, Joachim is halffrench, they have this castle in the south,
both have family in France. Is it so hard to live there?
His anger,bitterness or jealousy must be at a high level,
sorry for the children.
 
I think the ordinary and private life that many royals desire is not so enjoyable once they learn the downsides that most of us experience every day. You have to organize yourself and take a look at your bank account on a regular basis.

Yes, J&M will have a privileged life but it is probably a far cry from the privileges that go along a royal life in Denmark. They will have and use special connections there that are not around in France and they are probably not surrounded by the 'yes men' in the background, who do and arrange everything without questioning or asking for money.

But the deeper motivation for their bitterness and jealousy is probably deeply rooted in the same shortcomings like Henrik, who even at the age of 80 had not understood the principle of a consort and instead of being more relaxed about it, it actually became worse with age. There is no fool than an old fool.
Now with Joachim getting older, it might even bother him more to be cast aside, not only his position as spare but also physically, moving him to France.
And then he does not have a wife who tells him to get a grip and move on but keeps nagging at this weakness and nurturing his need for entitlement. I guess we have Henrik 2.0 in the making.
 
"I guess we have Henrik 2.0 in the making."

Maybe even worse, as he can do a lot of damage to his brothers reign.
This move to France, if not chosen from the couple, seems to be a sort of damage control
for what is to come. Now they are off the stage, less damage expected. as simple as that.

My aunt who is very much into these affairs always said Joachim is a copy of Henrik,
his first wife picked from Hongkong (which Henrik knew well)
second wife french... and many more details, some I did not know.
The way he brings up his fathers sorrows, years after he passed could be a late piece of mourning process aswell as means of choice to attract both more attention or sort if self-justification whatever it comes a bit weird.
And yes, unfortunately Marie supports him instead of kicking him ....

It'll be interesting to see what Joachim's children choose to do with their future.
 
To me he was so happy with our Marie and had a new life with a warm person.
The interview in Point de Vue , i thought , was to say he was new in good condition.
But it seems in Denmark , the Point of Vues are different .
His Father Prince Henrik should have been grateful for what denmark has done for him.The Castle of Cayx , his collections of Jade etc...
 
Well, he's at work these days.

France is heavily engaged in several countries in Sahara, among them Mali, where there is also a sizable UN-peacekeeping contingent.
Denmark is also involved there, with either an HQ, a helicopter contingent, a special forces contingent or a light combat contingent - depending on circumstances and what is needed. The next Danish unit to be deployed there is a helicopter contingent. - Under French command.
The aim is to combat Islamists there. And preventing them from establishing bases and training camps.
That has been going on for 10+ years now. With regular skirmishes.
The UN-troops have been suffering the most casualties though.
Partly because they try and protect tribes who are under attack, and partly because they are less well trained and much less well armed than the European forces there.
The war there is just as much between tribes than about religion, which makes the whole thing very murky.
And in-between we have bands of Tuaregs reverting to their old habits of marauding.
The situation is pretty much the same in Tchad, Mauritania and Niger. But now also spilling into the Central African Republic.
All that is within the French sphere of interest.

However, there has recently been a (another) military coup in Mali and President Macron has warned that if the government turn towards increased implementation of Islam in Mali, the French (and as such Danish) forces will be withdrawn.
Seemingly the people behind the coup omitted to inform France before committing the coup.
So Joachim is no doubt busy these days writing reports and having meetings and briefings with French officers and civil servants.

----------------

I myself will still prefer an elaboration of what Joachim really mean, before coming to any conclusions.
 
Archduchess Zelia said:
I also disagree that they're planning to slim down the monarchy. That makes sense in the case of the BRF that has an overwhelming amount of members, many of which . But the DRF currently has 14 members. 6 of those are children. 4 have, since the day Christian was born, not been expected to have an official role within the monarchy. The DRF is already a slimmed-down monarchy and there's no need for further slimming down as that will happen naturally.
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I've replied to this post in The Future of the Danish Monarchy.
 
Muhler said:
I believe he referred to himself as spare.

Anyway, it's annoying that he doesn't elaborate.

I can understand he won't do it the middle of the street, but Joachim needs to explain exactly what his misgivings are, soon, otherwise it will lead to a lot of needless speculation.
And for Joachim to be compared to another spare, (we all know who!) who is currently babbling away and shooting himself in the foot on a daily basis.

Talk about it, get it out in the open, so we the public can debate and agree or disagree, but do talk about it!
The cat is out of the bag, and it won't go back.
Click to expand...

Part of the problem, though, is that it’s a complicated topic. For Joachim to give a full picture of his issues and misgivings would require a much lengthier interview! He’s also constrained in that giving the public a full picture of where he’s coming from would probably require going into detail about various family relationships and other things that most people would consider to be private.

I think the role of the spare is one of those topics where it’s best for the people involved to refrain from commenting in public as much as possible. There’s just no winning. The press doesn’t like complicated when it comes to royal coverage. Joachim could potentially give very thoughtful responses to questions about his role in the DRF, but it would be up to the press to report what he said accurately, within the correct context. I think Marie has made some ill considered statements over the years, but she hit the nail on the head in the recent interview when she said there always needs to be a villain. You see this to a greater or lesser extent in every royal family - sooner or later the heir and his/her family are built up by the royal court and the media, often at the expense of the spares.

I think the point someone else made above about how royal children work for a royal family from birth is very valid. The children are an integral part of a successful monarchy - all of them, not just the heir. In Joachim’s case he served the interests of the DRF well for a long time, and, with his marriage to Alexandra, may have been its strongest link for a number of years. He and his family certainly helped take some focus and pressure off Frederik during a time when, judging by Frederik’s own comments, he may not have coped so well with having to carry the full weight of everyone’s expectations. And there were almost certainly plenty of limits put on Joachim’s life - it’s not like he would have been told he could do whatever he wanted, marry anyone he wanted, live wherever he wanted, etc.

Most people have the expectation that they will personally benefit down the road from sacrifices they make, and that they will share in the rewards that come from anything they’ve done well. The problem with the life of a royal spare is that they’re making these sacrifices and doing good work for an organization that considers them expendable. If something bad happens with the monarch, the heir, or their spouses the official RF will circle the wagons and do whatever they can to make things right. If something bad happens with a lower level member of the family, they’re on their own. And even if nothing bad happens, over time the lower level members will still find they’re on their own. The organization that derived so much benefit from them has moved on.

I think Joachim has actually done well for himself, compared to his counterparts in other royal families. It’s hard to picture the UK or Spain, for example, agreeing to generously finance the second son’s ex spouse for many years. But I think there are parts of the lives of the non-heir children in every royal family that are legitimately not fair, and the money is only a small part of it. Honestly, there’s not much to be done about things for royals of Joachim’s generation, but hopefully this generation of royal parents will take on board that they need to be thoughtful and purposeful with the future of all of their children, not just the eldest.
 
Camelot you are making some good points and I agree to a lot of things,
but when taking a closer look the majority of spares are just fine with their life.
The BRF is an exception but due to what? Maybe structural changes needed like you proposed, but aswell probably a repeated weakness or unability of a parent when considering the situation ifs Margret, Andrew and now Harry.

Joachim is the son of his father and IMO tried to fulfill his expactations or what he himself considered those to be, reportedly a very strict father his son seemed to run after love and now taking over his father's late resentments, there's be a lot to analyse in this father-son relationship and nothing too special by the way, it's ordinary psychological patterns.

I think most royal families coped quite well with the upbringing of the spare. Women cope better, but that is to a certain extent due to male behaviour patters.

What I often think is we are making it a special situation because of the monarch
but is it really so much different to what ordinary families owning a farm or family business
have to do and have been doing ever since? The eldest takes over.

As most RF slim down because the acceptance of monarchy itself decreases in our days the possibility of just dragging along a spare gets more unlikely for the future so everybody has to do it's homework for the future , some do better some less, that's life.
 
BT has published three surveys made by YouGov regarding Joachim's apanage.
https://www.bt.dk/royale/danskerne-i-ny-undersoegelse-prins-joachim-boer-frasige-sig-apanage

The three surveys were phrased differently as seen here below:
Survey A:
Prince Joachim receive 3.9 million DKK from the state each year. How do you agree of disagree in the following:
Joachim must continue to receive an apanage at such an amount for as long as he lives.
46 % Disagree to varying extent. (No to such apanage for life)
21 % don't agree of disagree.
27 % agree to a varying extent. (Yes to such apanage for life.)
7 % don't know.

Survey B:
In 2019 Prince Joachim moved to Paris where he today works as a defense attache. He receive 3.9 million DKK a year in apanage from the state.
How do you agree or disagree with the following:
Prince Joachim should from and including 2022 himself give up the apanage.
21 don't agree to a varying extent. (He should not give up the apanage.)
22 don't agree or disagree.
49 % agree to a varying extent. (He should give up the apanage.)
7 % don't know.

Survey C:
In 2019 Prince Joachim moved to Paris, where he today works as a defense attache. He receive 3.9 million DKK a year in apanage from the state. How do you agree or disagree with the following:
A majority in the Parliament should decide to to strip Prince Joachim of the apanage taking affect in 2022.
26 % disagree to a varying extent. (Do not strip him of the apanage.)
22 % don't agree of disagree.
53 % agree to a varying extent. (Strip him of the apange.)

The surveys were conducted during 4-6th June 2021. (Over a weekend around the Constitution Day.)
1.240 adult Danes were asked.
The format was CAWI, which I don't know what is. Phone? Online? Asked in the streets?

- Two things to point out:
A: Assuming they didn't ask the same people all three questions, only 400 on average answered each question.
B: There is no way the Parliament will strip Joachim of his apanage on such a short notice. It simply will not happen, unless Joachim has committed a serious crime.
It is very doubtful the Parliament will strip Joachim (or any member of the DRF) of the apanage at all. Joachim will either give up his apanage more or less voluntarily or not.
 
https://www.bt.dk/royale/bts-royale...im-gaar-i-harry-og-meghans-fodspor-arrogancen

This is an article in BT, by their royal reporter who is a person I don't have that much respect for on a professional level.
His comments has IMO a tendency to be based more on his personal interpretations and personal bias, then a detached analysis of facts.

You may recall that Joachim and our Marie some months ago in an interview expressed some frustrations in regards to their role and not least what Joachim's role in regards to being the - now superfluous - spare.
A very relevant topic, because what do we do with the spares, once the heir has enough children to ensure that the spare is really needed?
Do we pension them off?
Give them some sort of role?
Or do we let them go, to seek their own fortune? Something some may see as sacking them.

This article is a mix of the reporter whining about not getting an interview with Joachim or getting any remotely meaningful and interesting statement.
Because Joachim, according to our reporter here, flatly refused to discuss anything but the race. (*)
And a wish to know what Joachim actually meant.

The reporter has a point.
What exactly did Joachim mean?
What role can he envision for himself in the future?
What should have been done differently?
Very relevant questions, that Joachim cannot avoid forever.

(*) The first thing spring to mind is that the DRF is trying to do some damage control here by trying to silence the issue. The problem is that it doesn't work. The cat is out of the bag and the press won't stop, nor should they, because this is relevant to the public. And it's not an unreasonable issue to address.
I won't mention names, like say Archduchess Zelia, but it has been pointed out that the DRF are not always that good at damage control. ;)
This is one such case.
If Frederik, Joachim and QMII haven't already had a long and serious meeting by now, they should ASAP and come out and say: Okay, we've been giving this some careful thought and we think/propose/will implement X, Y, Z.

It won't damage the DRF. QMII is secure. Almost sacrosanct. M&F are untouchable and to many the de facto reigning couple.
Coming out with something soon may hurt J&M.
Not doing anything will hurt J&M.
 
Absolutely agree. Another (or, perhaps more appropriately, a continuing) crystal clear example of DRF's disastrous damage control.

An interesting tidbit from the article is that the reporter mentions how the collected press corps was shocked with Joachim's behaviour (and with that, the DRF's behaviour, because, as Muhler says, he's undoubtedly been prepped for the meeting with the press by the DRF's communications department) and that several times, they were considering pulling out of the coverage of the event altogether because of this.

Although the reporter in question is undoubtedly angling the situation harsher than it was to gain traction for the article, if the press was even remotely close to making a statement as big as collectively withdrawing from an event like this, I think that's pretty evident of how grave the situation is.

Worst thing is that I think absolutely nothing will come of this. The DRF (as an institution) is simply too stubborn to admit fault and backtrack on their strategy.

In practice, I don't think anything will happen anytime soon. The parliament wouldn't dare touching the DRF with a barge pole. The only thing I think will happen is that J&M will drop even steeper in public estimation. Which is such a shame in the slipstream of Joachim's success with his TV series some years ago.
 
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