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  #241  
Old 11-30-2022, 05:44 PM
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I agree - it has been made clear that J&M are not really needed (nor some may say wanted) by the Royal Family in Denmark any more so surely the next best thing is for Joachim to have a role that supports his family without support from Denmark and the Royal Court and make his own life? The Queen was happy for them to move to France and work in the Embassy so they were away from public duties and Denmark so no one can really be unhappy if they choose to take that further and take up a private role in a foreign country.

Heads of Royal Houses need to adapt to modern times and the notion that not all members of their families will be "active, working members of the Royal Family" and a big part of that includes how those members are treated - feels to me like Daisy has been happy to have Joachim around when needed but as soon as he isn't she wants him gone, that isn't a fair situation to put someone in.
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  #242  
Old 11-30-2022, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post

Heads of Royal Houses need to adapt to modern times and the notion that not all members of their families will be "active, working members of the Royal Family" and a big part of that includes how those members are treated - feels to me like Daisy has been happy to have Joachim around when needed but as soon as he isn't she wants him gone, that isn't a fair situation to put someone in.
Correct me if I am wrong, but he hasn't been very active since his first marriage. Also, the Queen was the one that helped him get this job that he is so excited for. Had he not went to Paris, this job in the US probably would not be an option for him. He went to the press first because HE did not want to be in Paris. I am glad it worked out for him though, for everyone's sake.
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  #243  
Old 11-30-2022, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
I agree - it has been made clear that J&M are not really needed (nor some may say wanted) by the Royal Family in Denmark any more so surely the next best thing is for Joachim to have a role that supports his family without support from Denmark and the Royal Court and make his own life? The Queen was happy for them to move to France and work in the Embassy so they were away from public duties and Denmark so no one can really be unhappy if they choose to take that further and take up a private role in a foreign country.

Heads of Royal Houses need to adapt to modern times and the notion that not all members of their families will be "active, working members of the Royal Family" and a big part of that includes how those members are treated - feels to me like Daisy has been happy to have Joachim around when needed but as soon as he isn't she wants him gone, that isn't a fair situation to put someone in.
You have to be pragmatic and ruthless to survive. In 1918 one royal house survived mainly because they were extremely pragmatic P, ruthless and the King kept an ear to the publics opinion.

It is her job to protect the crown for those that come after her. It isnt personal. Its business.
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  #244  
Old 11-30-2022, 06:33 PM
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Correct me if I am wrong, but he hasn't been very active since his first marriage. Also, the Queen was the one that helped him get this job that he is so excited for. Had he not went to Paris, this job in the US probably would not be an option for him. He went to the press first because HE did not want to be in Paris. I am glad it worked out for him though, for everyone's sake.
Joachim and Alexandra were the main couple (after the queen and prince Henrik) for many years until Frederik married Mary). They were quite active in those years - there is a reason that Alexandra got an apanage even after their divorce. She had dedicated her married years to serving the crown.
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  #245  
Old 11-30-2022, 06:37 PM
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There is no indication he's going into "exile", self-imposed or otherwise, and the comparison with Harry, Juan Carlos, or Andrew is not only wildly picking names out of the air, but ridiculous.
Hmm, let us say, that the future is for us humans inherently unknown... and let us hope for the best.

Me, I am a big fan of the Queen of Denmark and I wish really only good things for her.
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  #246  
Old 12-02-2022, 04:17 PM
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Our favorite BT dude has done a new piece, this time with a genuine expert.
https://www.bt.dk/kongehuset-bag-kul...-kommer-som-et

Peter Ernstved Rasmussen is the editor of the online defense-media Olfi, that deal in various military matters, in regards to organization, procurement of equipment and publishing various views on new military developments. It's a very serious site run by man who actually knows what he talking about. His site also present views that career officers may be reluctant to say out loud, so he has a lot of connections within the military.
And this is his view on Joachim resigning as military attache in Paris and moving to USA.

- That came as a huge surprise!
It was within military circles expected that Joachim would continue in his position for another year past his three year contract.
So by saying that he stops as a military attache in the summer of 2023, Joachim has basically resigned himself. So the announcement is something of a shock.

Not least because Joachim cannot expect to continue to receive his apanage when he moves to USA. It took a special dispensation by the Parliament to allow Joachim to keep his apanage in France. and as the negotiations regarding forming a new government are still going on, the Parliament don't just convene to pass new laws. Things are still in a political limbo so to speak. Which means that the Parliament cannot start the procedure enabling Joachim to keep his apanage, if that is desired.
Peter Ernstved Rasmussen suggest that the politicians as well have been caught off guard.
Because Joachim went out and announced his plans, before the politicians and various defense committees had discussed the matter.

However Peter Ernstved Rasmussen estimate that Joachim will be in a better bargaining position this time, because "...The Prince has shown to be sublimely capable and skilled for specifically the job as defense attache."
There were previously some speculations as to whether Joachim had used his title and position to land a job someone else would be more competent at, but that has shown not to be the case.

------------------

Hmm.

While I'm of course delighted that Joachim has done so well as a defense attache, not least during a very busy time, I am still perplexed as to what he will be doing in USA.
This suggests that it is not an official position for the Danish state or military.
this to me smells more like Joachim having been headhunted for a position of some sort. - And that presumably means that he is quitting the DRF as an active member. I mean working for a defense company, whether it's foreign or Danish can mean that it will be controversial for him to represent DK and the DRF - after all, who will he be representing and talking on behalf of? Denmark or the company that has employed him?

I actually bought this weeks issue of BB today to learn what J&M had to say, but they said very little. Both in regards to Joachim's new position, whatever that may be, and the internal relationship within the DRF.

So right now I suspect that Joachim has indeed gone solo and has been headhunted by someone - which more or less by default means he will have to leave the DRF as a working royal. And presumably our Marie as well?
We do appear to be in a kind of transition period in the DRF.
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  #247  
Old 12-02-2022, 05:45 PM
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If Joachim has indeed a position in Defense industry in the US, he will keep quiet, or he will jeopardize his position. Even when he is in the US, we will probably on be aware of a title, but his actual position description won't be elaborated.

It will be interesting to see whether his appanage is "put on hold" whilst he works in the US.
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  #248  
Old 12-02-2022, 06:13 PM
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They can't just not elaborate what he's doing in DC, or it will seem like he's a spy.

And as other people have pointed out, he's a Danish national whether he works for the DRF or not, and what kind of US, DC-based defense company hires those? Unless the Danish military has some substantial presence in DC I'm missing?
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  #249  
Old 12-02-2022, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by CrownPrincessJava View Post
If Joachim has indeed a position in Defense industry in the US, he will keep quiet, or he will jeopardize his position. Even when he is in the US, we will probably on be aware of a title, but his actual position description won't be elaborated.

It will be interesting to see whether his appanage is "put on hold" whilst he works in the US.
Interesting. I have no idea of how it works in the defense industry. So I guess, with that being the case, we will see fewer interviews of M&F in the future. And what we may see, will say very little of what he is doing.
In other words: They will fade away.

If Joachim has accepted a private job, especially for a foreign company, I simply cannot see how he can keep his apanage. Especially if he has accepted the job, without telling his superiors, military and political (and the Monarch?) first.
Nor do I believe he can have his apanage on hold.

Perhaps he will get some sort of "retirement-apanage" when he retires because a part of your salary in DK goes to your pension. (On top of your state-pension.) There is AFAIK no "pension-plan" in the apanage. Or he may get some kind of "golden handshake."
- A kind of payment for "services rendered."
Because once he goes private employment, he will IMO de facto have signed out of the DRF as well - as an active representative of the DRF and DK.
I have problems seeing him return from such a move.

- That sure will be interesting! Not least considering the huge controversy regarding him demanding and getting his apanage while in France.
It's also a first and may be an indication of what may happen to M&F's children, especially Isabella.

And considering that the numbers of active DRF members, in this case, being reduced by two adults and Christian turning 18 next year, will that mean that Christian will take on heavier protections basically from day one? That is take over some of J&M's protections?

We shall see. I predict the next six months will be most interesting!
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  #250  
Old 12-02-2022, 07:21 PM
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What happened with Alexandra - wasn't she going to get some sort of "pension" once Felix turned 18 at one point? Not sure what happened after her"voluntarily" giving her appanage up bu I'm sure it was discussed.
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  #251  
Old 12-02-2022, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
What happened with Alexandra - wasn't she going to get some sort of "pension" once Felix turned 18 at one point? Not sure what happened after her"voluntarily" giving her appanage up bu I'm sure it was discussed.
Alexandra voluntarily (well, after a lot of public pressure) gave up her appanage, but is still entitled to the pension of a top ranking civil servant.
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  #252  
Old 12-02-2022, 10:16 PM
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Interesting. I have no idea of how it works in the defense industry. So I guess, with that being the case, we will see fewer interviews of M&F in the future. And what we may see, will say very little of what he is doing.
In other words: They will fade away.

If Joachim has accepted a private job, especially for a foreign company, I simply cannot see how he can keep his apanage. Especially if he has accepted the job, without telling his superiors, military and political (and the Monarch?) first.
Nor do I believe he can have his apanage on hold.

Perhaps he will get some sort of "retirement-apanage" when he retires because a part of your salary in DK goes to your pension. (On top of your state-pension.) There is AFAIK no "pension-plan" in the apanage. Or he may get some kind of "golden handshake."
- A kind of payment for "services rendered."
Because once he goes private employment, he will IMO de facto have signed out of the DRF as well - as an active representative of the DRF and DK.
I have problems seeing him return from such a move.

- That sure will be interesting! Not least considering the huge controversy regarding him demanding and getting his apanage while in France.
It's also a first and may be an indication of what may happen to M&F's children, especially Isabella.

And considering that the numbers of active DRF members, in this case, being reduced by two adults and Christian turning 18 next year, will that mean that Christian will take on heavier protections basically from day one? That is take over some of J&M's protections?

We shall see. I predict the next six months will be most interesting!
Indeed Muhler! I suspect the title fiasco may have lead to him deciding to go for the opportunity. There is nothing really stopping them, as you pointed out, Christian turns 18 next year and 18 months later, so does Isabella.

Defense has a "need-to-know" policy, so if he goes around telling everyone what he does, it can jeopardize national security and commerical-in-confidence. He knows this - and hence why he will not elaborate. Prince or not, everyone has to adhere to this
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  #253  
Old 12-04-2022, 08:06 PM
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This sounds like a good opportunity for Joachim.
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  #254  
Old 12-04-2022, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
I agree - it has been made clear that J&M are not really needed (nor some may say wanted) by the Royal Family in Denmark any more so surely the next best thing is for Joachim to have a role that supports his family without support from Denmark and the Royal Court and make his own life? The Queen was happy for them to move to France and work in the Embassy so they were away from public duties and Denmark so no one can really be unhappy if they choose to take that further and take up a private role in a foreign country.

Heads of Royal Houses need to adapt to modern times and the notion that not all members of their families will be "active, working members of the Royal Family" and a big part of that includes how those members are treated - feels to me like Daisy has been happy to have Joachim around when needed but as soon as he isn't she wants him gone, that isn't a fair situation to put someone in.
I agree with much of what you posted but I don't agree that Joachim was cast aside, and certainly not in an abrupt manner. From my perspective, Queen Margrethe has been working on some kind of life plan for her second son since he was a child. It should be noted that she has been criticized for it because it has been seen as her controlling and constraining him. The following is my recollection and understanding of things (with of course some opinion added in) with the caveat that my recall and understanding may not be 100% correct.

Schackenborg Castle was offered to the Danish Royal Family / returned to the Crown, and rather than the Queen adding it to her personal portfolio to eventually be inherited by the Crown Prince, she finagled things where the property would go to their second son and presumably his heirs. To me this is especially noteworthy because the DRF is not considered wealthy by royal standards.

Again Queen Margrethe has been criticized for this by saying that she consigned her second son to being a farmer without his consent, which is valid, but another way to look at it is that, this is par for the course for landed nobility, and she was attempting to set him up to have his own means of support and hopefully generational wealth. Nevertheless, when Joachim concluded that being a farmer / estate manager was not something that he was suited for, he sold Schackenborg and pocketed the proceeds - Schackenborg was sold to a foundation and Prince Joachim is on the board of the foundation. Note that prior to Joachim taking over Schackenborg that his parents poured money into the estate, and Joachim and Alexandra were given funds earmarked for Schackenborg from the people of Denmark as a wedding present. My guess is that, due to the proceeds from Schakenborg, at this point in time, Joachim's personal wealth exceeds that of his heir brother.

Joachim is the only spare that I am aware of in a European monarchy that has his own apanage, if that is incorrect, I am pretty sure that someone will provide the correct information. Adding on to that, when Joachim and Alexandra got divorced, Alexandra herself got a apanage and a title! Alexandra did minimal royal duties after her divorce and was also free to pursue commercial endeavors, so it seems like Alexandra's apanage was a benefit to her for her past service to Denmark and indirectly a benefit to Joachim because I am willing to bet that it defrayed his alimony and child support obligations.

It seems like that Margrethe visualized a set up with her two sons similar to the set up that she has with her sister Benedickte, where the sibling carried out royal duties on an as needed basis as opposed to being a full-time working royal. It seems like the plan got derailed somewhat when Joachim married first with the Crown Prince getting married and producing heirs not happening in the foreseeable future. But again, Joachim got an apanage when he married Alexandra and the apanage remains intact to this day despite Joachim getting divorced, Frederik marrying and producing heirs, and Joachim performing fewer royal duties. It seems like the assignment in France was Margrethe trying to get the original plan back on track of Joachim and wife's primary vocation being something other than as full-time working royals.

While of course these are champagne problems, I can see why Joachim has had struggles with his mother pulling strings, to me this is a variation of the struggles that direct heirs and monarchs have with their lives being prescribed for them, but then we tend not to be overall too sympathetic to the heirs and monarchs, and most come to terms with their circumstances. Hopefully the same will happen for Joachim, especially if he remains as thrilled with the upcoming opportunity in the U.S., because to me the next chapter in his life, that he seems to be very excited about, seems to have come about due to the, dare I say, machinations of his mother, Queen Margrethe.
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  #255  
Old 12-05-2022, 07:39 AM
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Thanks for your lengthy argument. I agree that Margrethe has been working on securing a future for her second son.

However, you are indeed incorrect in thinking that Joachim is the only spare receiving an apanage. Both siblings of king Philippe of Belgium do receive one as well. However, just like in Denmark, it has been decided that practice will not continue in the next generation.
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  #256  
Old 12-05-2022, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
Personally I hope its a private job so he gets a big enough salary to not have to be beholden be the Danish RF anymore.
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I can't agree. Royal family members feeling that they are not beholden to their monarchies have produced difficult and detrimental situations for many monarchies, which is a prime reason why many European monarchies have chosen to reduce their numbers of "royals" in one manner or another.
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Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
I agree - it has been made clear that J&M are not really needed (nor some may say wanted) by the Royal Family in Denmark any more so surely the next best thing is for Joachim to have a role that supports his family without support from Denmark and the Royal Court and make his own life? The Queen was happy for them to move to France and work in the Embassy so they were away from public duties and Denmark so no one can really be unhappy if they choose to take that further and take up a private role in a foreign country.

Heads of Royal Houses need to adapt to modern times and the notion that not all members of their families will be "active, working members of the Royal Family" and a big part of that includes how those members are treated - feels to me like Daisy has been happy to have Joachim around when needed but as soon as he isn't she wants him gone, that isn't a fair situation to put someone in.
Apparently you meant something separate from what I thought you meant. To my ears, "a big enough salary to not have to be beholden be the Danish RF anymore" sounded as if he would hypothetically use his personal wealth to justify disregarding all the limitations which constrain members of the Danish Royal House, even those who have private careers (e.g. the responsibility to be politically neutral, to not harm the interests of the country, etc.). Which is quite different than simply having a private role in a foreign country, while still being aware of those limitations.
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  #257  
Old 12-05-2022, 08:35 AM
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I disagree. With the gradual sidelining of J&M and stripping the children of their titles, the Queen has made it very clear that they are unnecessary to the day to day functioning of the monarchy. F&M and their kids are the future, so J&M have every right to forge a new path of their own.
To me there is a difference between forging a new path of their own and not being at all beholden to the monarchy: Infanta Elena of Spain forged a new path of her own by having a private teaching (and later nonprofit administration) career but continued to observe her duties to the monarchy; her brother-in-law Iaki Urdangarin of Spain forged a different type of "new path" which ended in a corruption trial and devastated public opinion of the Spanish monarchy. I can't agree that the latter would be acceptable for Prince Joachim and Princess Marie.
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  #258  
Old 12-05-2022, 08:37 AM
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Thanks for your lengthy argument. I agree that Margrethe has been working on securing a future for her second son.

However, you are indeed incorrect in thinking that Joachim is the only spare receiving an apanage. Both siblings of king Philippe of Belgium do receive one as well. However, just like in Denmark, it has been decided that practice will not continue in the next generation.

Also Princess Benedikte continues to get her own apanage and she is not even the spare anymore.
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  #259  
Old 12-05-2022, 08:39 AM
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Our favorite BT dude has done a new piece, this time with a genuine expert.
https://www.bt.dk/kongehuset-bag-kul...-kommer-som-et

Peter Ernstved Rasmussen is the editor of the online defense-media Olfi, that deal in various military matters, in regards to organization, procurement of equipment and publishing various views on new military developments. It's a very serious site run by man who actually knows what he talking about. His site also present views that career officers may be reluctant to say out loud, so he has a lot of connections within the military.
And this is his view on Joachim resigning as military attache in Paris and moving to USA.

- That came as a huge surprise!
It was within military circles expected that Joachim would continue in his position for another year past his three year contract.
So by saying that he stops as a military attache in the summer of 2023, Joachim has basically resigned himself. So the announcement is something of a shock.

Not least because Joachim cannot expect to continue to receive his apanage when he moves to USA. It took a special dispensation by the Parliament to allow Joachim to keep his apanage in France. and as the negotiations regarding forming a new government are still going on, the Parliament don't just convene to pass new laws. Things are still in a political limbo so to speak. Which means that the Parliament cannot start the procedure enabling Joachim to keep his apanage, if that is desired.
Peter Ernstved Rasmussen suggest that the politicians as well have been caught off guard.
Because Joachim went out and announced his plans, before the politicians and various defense committees had discussed the matter.

However Peter Ernstved Rasmussen estimate that Joachim will be in a better bargaining position this time, because "...The Prince has shown to be sublimely capable and skilled for specifically the job as defense attache."
There were previously some speculations as to whether Joachim had used his title and position to land a job someone else would be more competent at, but that has shown not to be the case.
It seems rather ironic that after feeling caught off guard by the lack of communication from the queen regarding his children's futures, the prince himself is catching the government and parliament off-guard with his announcements about his own future (unless there have been behind-the-scenes discussions which Mr. Ernstved Rasmussen is unaware of).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
Also Princess Benedikte continues to get her own apanage and she is not even the spare anymore.
Princess Benedikte is compensated for her representation costs from her sister's apanage, while Prince Joachim receives his own apanage.

https://www.kongehuset.dk/%C3%98konomi#
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  #260  
Old 12-05-2022, 11:48 AM
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I think it should be pointed out that no one from the extended Schack family wanted to take over Schackenborg so it reverted so to speak to the Crown.
And the last owners didn't do much about the place so it was a pretty derelict manor Joachim took over.

I think QMII and PH were too trusting of the last owners of Schackenborg otherwise I doubt they (and their lawyers) would have accepted taking over the place on behalf of Joachim. Considering the state the manor was in, due to lack of maintenance and investments.

I also suspect that had it not been for the money donated by the public as a wedding present, Joachim would have had to give up the place much sooner.
Joachim would certainly not have been able to afford renovating the building otherwise.
Alexandra's business sense IMO also helped a lot. However, Alexandra was and is a city-girl. While Schackenborg would have been a nice weekend retreat, I doubt very much it was ever a home for her.

In hindsight it might have been better to let Joachim pursue a career as diplomat or as a civil servant within the Ministry of Trade, where he talents for diplomacy, giving speeches and wear suits would be of better use.
I mean Joachim was destined to take over a manor, a large farm, when he was around ten or so - without anyone knowing whether he had a talent or even a desire for farming. (*)

I hope M&F don't make a similar mistake in regards to their children, in particular Isabella, who is the de facto spare. And who will, for at least a part of her life, have a role similar to that of Joachim.

(*) It is of course also one of the major flaws in the whole concept of monarchy: That the one who is going to take over, may not necessarily be the best suited - or willing.
Need I mention Thailand?

I wonder if the next step for modern monarchies will be to have some sort of vetting process, to determine who among the available candidates is best suited. Or perhaps rather an option of overriding the first born?
Right now it seems like the (young) heirs and future heirs in DK, Belgium, Norway, Spain and the Netherlands are actually well suited and have accepted their destiny, so to speak. And let us be grateful for that!
But what if the cards had been stacked a little differently?
Because today and in the future the heirs can't hide behind the palace walls and unfortunate behavior and character traits can no longer be hushed up.
- All that is of course a topic for another debate.
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