Prince Christian's confirmation: May 15, 2021

[Archduchess Zelia]

Right, and JHJ writes that it probably wouldn't have been a problem for him to adapt the rules in this situation as well by scheduling work from home during the self-isolation. It depends on your priorities and Joachim didn't prioritise the confirmation but that's his own choice.

[JR76]

Originally Posted by Archduchess Zelia

Right, and JHJ writes that it probably wouldn't have been a problem for him to adapt the rules in this situation as well by scheduling work from home during the self-isolation. It depends on your priorities.

Joachim might not have the possibility at the moment to isolate at home for the whole period necessary to be able to travel.

[FasterB]

It has been comfirmed that neither the Greek Roayl Family will attend Prince Christian's confirmation due to the CoVid-19 travel restrictions.

https://www.billedbladet.dk/kongelig...ie-og-familien

[valeas]

Originally Posted by Archduchess Zelia

Right, and JHJ writes that it probably wouldn't have been a problem for him to adapt the rules in this situation as well by scheduling work from home during the self-isolation. It depends on your priorities and Joachim didn't prioritise the confirmation but that's his own choice.

How do you know he chose this?


To postpone it another time would point out more and more that the party was more important than the religious idea of conformation, which for a commoner might be acceptable but less for a future heir ;-)

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by valeas

To postpone it another time would point out more and more that the party was more important than the religious idea of conformation, which for a commoner might be acceptable but less for a future heir ;-)

I would say, that the postponements have more to do with hoping it would allow Christian's foreign godparents and family abroad to be able to attend the religious confirmation. Not about "the party".

[valeas]

Originally Posted by Nordic

I would guess, that the postponements have more to do with hoping it would allow Christian's foreign godparents to be able to attend the religious confirmation. Not about "the party".

I do not know, but tried to show a further problem with postponing it like some posters suggested not saying Christian goes only for the party, how could I am danish

[Archduchess Zelia]

Originally Posted by valeas

How do you know he chose this?

Seems pretty logical to me. They've known the date long time in advance, Joachim mainly does desk work and Marie is a stay-at-home mum. If they'd considered the confirmation important enough, it shouldn't have be hard to work out a way to get through the self-isolation. But nevermind my own musings, that's what the article says and I was just relaying from that.

Originally Posted by valeas

I do not know, but tried to show a further problem with postponing it like some posters suggested not saying Christian goes only for the party, how could I am danish

It's pretty evident the postponements have had everything to do with hoping it'd allow for the international family and friends – including, as @Nordic mentions, his godparents – to attend so the suggestion that anyone would think it's about the party doesn't make sense.

[Archduchess Zelia]

Billed Bladet report that the Danish Girls Choir of Fredensborg Chapel (of which Princess Benedikte is patron) will perform at the confirmation.

[valeas]

Originally Posted by Archduchess Zelia

Seems pretty logical to me. They've known the date long time in advance, Joachim mainly does desk work and Marie is a stay-at-home mum. If they'd considered the confirmation important enough, it shouldn't have be hard to work out a way to get through the self-isolation. But nevermind my own musings, that's what the article says and I was just relaying from that.



It's pretty evident the postponements have had everything to do with hoping it'd allow for the international family and friends – including, as @Nordic mentions, his godparents – to attend so the suggestion that anyone would think it's about the party doesn't make sense.

Thank you for your response.
I am laughing because the irony is that postponing for the sake of more attendees means it's all about the party.
But never mind, I was not speculating this was Christians intention especially as he might have a say but is not to make final decision
and the pandemic still running for quite a while.

Well, he will deal with it as so many others have to, He is then a full member of church which can be seen as an important step, too.

All the best! Velsignelser for ham.

[Archduchess Zelia]

But it doesn't though Getting confirmed is a big thing. Wanting your family and your godparents to be there to see it has just as much to do with the ceremony as it has with the following celebration.

[Muhler]

And now for another angle on Christian's confirmation.
https://www.bt.dk/royale/kongehuseks...ar-naeppe-haft

The historian Michael Bregnsbro says that Christian hardly has had any say in regards to his confirmation, let alone whether he wanted to be confirmed at all.
Being a future king and head of the state church he has to be confirmed. And that means that certain things regarding his celebration and the guests are determined in advance.
- Well, no surprise there.

His siblings will, at least on paper, have a more free hand in regards to whether they want to be celebrated. In reality IMO certainly Isabella will have no choice either. She is the spare and must be expected to stand in for Christian from time to time - and in the case of a major tragedy...

But there are some things about the confirmation, historically, that was new to me.
It was normal up to 1960 or so to leave school after 7th grade and that was also the same time you were confirmed.
The popular remarks in DK that you by having been confirmed now enter the ranks of the adults was to a large extent true. At least around 100 years ago.

You were examined at your confirmation back then, about the Christian faith and you could actually fail the examination.
If you failed, you couldn't become an apprentice, you couldn't sign legal documents, you couldn't become a soldier, you couldn't get married, you couldn't take an oath. (*)
That didn't mean you had full legal rights though. You still couldn't vote until you were older, if were you were eligible to vote at all. That depended on when you were confirmed in regards to the changes in the Constitution. It was only after the change of the Constitution in 1915 that for example women and domestic servants were allowed to vote.

(*) A Danish oath is based on "faith and law" I.e. I pledge on faith and law that...
So if you weren't a part of the State Church or any other religious community, you couldn't pledge on your faith.

[SLV]

Fascinating history.

[victor1319]

Originally Posted by Muhler

Being a future king and head of the state church he has to be confirmed. And that means that certain things regarding his celebration and the guests are determined in advance.

Well, but this "he has to be confirmed" does no mean, he has to be a Christian, the Christian, right?

I mean, Crown Prince Frederick, as I think to have been reading here in the Forums, has for example his polite difficulties with the church rite and leaves on a regular basis before the end of the church service.

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by victor1319

Well, but this "he has to be confirmed" does no mean, he has to be a Christian, the Christian, right?

I mean, Crown Prince Frederick, as I think to have been reading here in the Forums, has for example his polite difficulties with the church rite and leaves on a regular basis before the end of the church service.

Yes, that was based on an interview Frederik gave in the early 90's IIRC. Where he among other things expressed his doubts about becoming king. But also very much his uncertainty about his life in general. - Which of course suggests that he is a ponderer.
In that interview he also expressed a doubt as the whether there is a god and whether things really are just as it is taught by the church.
- While most people could easily relate to his thoughts there were some in the State Church who said that surely he cannot be head of the State Church if he doesn't believe in God.

I think it's safe to say that today Frederik does believe in God, or at least an omnipotent deity/Creator. But in his own way, with his own interpretation.
That I think is in line with most Danes who are religious (Lutherans). I.e. what the church teach is an interpretation that may not line up with your own interpretation or experience with God and your faith.
Frederik has found his interpretation and I think he is at peace with that.

But mind you, religion is considered a very private matter in DK. In some countries and cultures there are constant referring to God, which is here seen as presumptuous, hypocritical and even arrogant. - It's considered presumptuous and arrogant to claim that you know what God want and that God is on your side. And it's considered hypocritical to constantly flaunt your religion. Calling upon God to help you or your cause in public is also very frowned upon. As if God hasn't got better things to do.
All this is to explain why we actually know very little about the DRF-member's personal faith.

Frederik and Christian are both destined to become head of the State Church, which of course means that they have to be members of the State Church and preferably also believe in the whole thing. Hence why the Confirmation is important, and why Christian in this case really has no say. He is to be confirmed, period.

[Roskilde]

I am sincerely sorry that such a big event as the confirmation of a heir to the throne and a great way of focusing on Prince Christian has ended up having to be so toned down. Most of all that Prince Christian's grandfather and Susan can’t attend, the same with Mary's entire family in Australia and the rest of family, friends and all of Prince Christian's godparents abroad. But after postponing the confirmation twice I understand if Christian would like the confirmation completed now. I hope Prince Christian gets a really fine and lovely confirmation tomorrow with 25 close guests, which means a more intimate and cozy confirmation. I look much forward to follow the event tomorrow even though it will be from the sickbed and thus as a not so active member in here.

[Muhler]

I understand there will be no TV-coverage of the confirmation tomorrow. But check Billed Bladet and BT, they may have some sort of live coverage from outside Fredensborg.

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by Muhler

Frederik and Christian are both destined to become head of the State Church, which of course means that they have to be members of the State Church and preferably also believe in the whole thing. Hence why the Confirmation is important, and why Christian in this case really has no say. He is to be confirmed, period.

Is there any talk of doing away with the idea of a State Church? It seems the Lutherans stick to State Churches while the Calvinists didn't. Meaning that when king Willem-Alexander confessed his faith, it was not at the expected age of 18 but 10 years later when he decided that he indeed wanted to do so.

We don't know whether his brothers did or did not confess their faith.

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by Somebody

Is there any talk of doing away with the idea of a State Church? It seems the Lutherans stick to State Churches while the Calvinists didn't. Meaning that when king Willem-Alexander confessed his faith, it was not at the expected age of 18 but 10 years later when he decided that he indeed wanted to do so.

We don't know whether his brothers did or did not confess their faith.

There has been some talk. But not nearly to the same extent as in Sweden and Norway. In Norway the monarch is no longer also head of the State Church. Not sure off hand how it is in Sweden.

I think one of the reasons is that in comparison to Norway, much fewer Danes identify themselves as Christians and let alone feel they have a particular affiliation with the State Church. I think it is much more common in DK to have personal interpretation of Christianity, where the State Church is not that necessary and as such who leads it, is really not that important either.
Those who don't care or are atheists have simply signed out of the State Church.

Another reason is that the current system works fine, so why fix what ain't broken?

A third reason is probably comparable to why the Danish monarchs still have a very specific Constitutional role, (Laws must be signed in order to be valid. All power comes from the Majesty and so on.) is that most people actually like the idea of the politicians having to be accountable to someone, that there is someone above them, even if it's mostly in theory.
Instead of QMII we would have the Minister of Church as head of the State Church. I can't even remember the name or the face, or gender of that minister!

A fourth reason is that there is little political will to change the system. And even less public will. Not to mention that it will a huge trouble! Because it will require a change of the Constitution.

While an overhaul of the Constitution might be needed, it really doesn't matter that much. Because in most cases the Constitution de facto says that X, Y, Z is definite - unless another law says something else...
The Constitution is for most practical purposes not particular rigid.

So Frederik will in all likelihood become head of the State Church. Whether things will change before Christian sits on the throne is an open question, but it's far from certain, and not something that the DRF can plan for by not having Christian confirmed.

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by Muhler

There has been some talk. But not nearly to the same extent as in Sweden and Norway. In Norway the monarch is no longer also head of the State Church. Not sure off hand how it is in Sweden.

I think one of the reasons is that in comparison to Norway, much fewer Danes identify themselves as Christians and let alone feel they have a particular affiliation with the State Church. I think it is much more common in DK to have personal interpretation of Christianity, where the State Church is not that necessary and as such who leads it, is really not that important either.
Those who don't care or are atheists have simply signed out of the State Church.

Another reason is that the current system works fine, so why fix what ain't broken?

A third reason is probably comparable to why the Danish monarchs still have a very specific Constitutional role, (Laws must be signed in order to be valid. All power comes from the Majesty and so on.) is that most people actually like the idea of the politicians having to be accountable to someone, that there is someone above them, even if it's mostly in theory.
Instead of QMII we would have the Minister of Church as head of the State Church. I can't even remember the name or the face, or gender of that minister!

A fourth reason is that there is little political will to change the system. And even less public will. Not to mention that it will a huge trouble! Because it will require a change of the Constitution.

While an overhaul of the Constitution might be needed, it really doesn't matter that much. Because in most cases the Constitution de facto says that X, Y, Z is definite - unless another law says something else...
The Constitution is for most practical purposes not particular rigid.

So Frederik will in all likelihood become head of the State Church. Whether things will change before Christian sits on the throne is an open question, but it's far from certain, and not something that the DRF can plan for by not having Christian confirmed.

Thanks for your explanation!

If there is no longer a state church, I don't see why a government (i.e., state) minister would be head of a non-state church... My suggestion wasn't about removing the monarch as head of the state church but doing away with the Lutheran church as the state church altogether.

However, I do see the issue with the Constitution if that would have to be changed. This doesn't seem important enough to drive a change of the Constitution but could probably be tagged on at one point if it is considered better to separate church and state.

[Muhler]

Ah, I see.

Well, that would also call for a change of the Constitution. Because the Constitution says very clearly that Denmark is a Christian country, adhering to the Lutheran faith. I.e. the State Church.

And then we are back to square one. Those who care are members of the State Church and they are unlikely to abolish the State Church.
And those who are not members of the State Church, don't pay church-tax, so it really doesn't matter to us.
So it's only a small minority who, mainly for principle, wish to abolish the concept of a State Church.
It certainly ain't something that's gonna sell and get people off the couches and off to the ballot boxes!

I do however disagree with you on one thing: There will be a minister for religious affairs even after the State Church was abolished.
The current Church Minister also oversee the affairs other religions.