Four years down the track; Is Mary OK now?

[Binz]

Originally Posted by carlota

i think some of us focus on her appearance because that's the only thing we see. i agree mary dresses lovely, but what i see of her most of the time is a quite superficial mary. just judging by mary's events, most of them are quite 'silly' events in my opinion: the two 'baptises' of the 'crown princess' flowers', the fashion fairs and catwalks to which she attends, those 3 magazines for which she posed, the recent trip to london with caroline, etc are some examples of this. going to a conference on human rights, going on an official visit as un ambassador, making an interesting and consistent speech on why are global economics helping emerging economies success... that includes work, research, commitment and is an activity more suitable for a royal in my opinion.

in addition:
royals who do more 'challenging' activities deserve more credit and show a lot more of their own personality if they make an intelligent speech, like maxima, mathilde or rania at world conferences or visit a country in need, like maxima, mathilde, mette marit....

I don't know how often I've red similar arguments.
I'm confused and flabbergasted. The following is not meant to criticize your post carlota. Your post is used only as a start.

It's such a worthy activity to travel to Africa or Asia and visit a country in need. And than? Doing what? Cleaning a hospital, washing sick people, changing dirty bed sheets, cooking for the poor and sick or at least giving private money? Can I see pictures of this kind of activities please or do you have an other proof? Oh yes there are this very nice pictures of some princesses. Hugging sad, starving, sick and sometimes happy children. Princesses who are looking sad, shaking hands with doctors or politicians, cuddle exotic animals and sitting at the bed of a sick person looking even more depressed. Ah and sometimes they bring along some money that was donated by the people of her home country. After three or four days they are back at home. What was the real purpose of the visit besides maintaining their image? Maybe her fellow countrymen will donate even more money in the future.

I'm absolutely sure sooner or later Mary will visit a country in need too.

I hope she continues with her silly and fluffy activities in the meantime at home in Denmark.
Like:
Mary opens Anker Fjord Hospice, 12 October 2006 - Hvide Sande. A hospice for dying Danes. A son of one of the dying woman has told a reporter that his mom was waiting for Marys visit eagerly and was very pleased. Sadly there was no camera shoven in the face of this woman. How silly and fluffy.
Mary at Heart Association family course, 20 August 2006 -- Horsens. Mary brought a personal gift for a little girl who had birthday and has had a heart transplant. She was hugged by one of the other girls who also has a heart problem and clearly was trilled to have Mary there.
Mary at presentation of Christmas Seal 2006, 30 October 2006 - Copenhagen. The danish Christman Seal works with overweight kids. Mary tries to help them collecting money for their work. Etc, etc, etc. - how silly and fluffy.
Instead of visiting a country in need she went together with her husband to Thailand. Just to accompany the family members of the danish tsunami victims. She and her husband have spoken with this people sadly also without a camera shoven in the faces of this people. How silly and fluffy.

Maybe Marys speech at the WHO conference, 11 September 2006 in Copenhagen hasn't changed the world. Show me the speeches of other princesses that have done this. Mary is a princess for 2 1/2 years. The other crown princesses are in the business for 5 or 7 years. Her ex SIL even for 11 years.

The fashion:
I thought people must earn money that they can donate money for good causes. Silly me, obviously for a princess it's only okay to help people spent money for good causes but not to help them earn money. Uff I forgot fashion is so shallow and superfluous. I'm sure all the people who criticize Mary for her involvement and interest in fashion are running around dressed only in simple blue pants and jackets. And all the other princesses too because it's such a shame to help people earning money with fashion. Yes it's fashion and even Mary is the patron of the danish fashion fair she isn't willed to be only a living, breating advertisement for the danish fashion. How criminal.

And I should not forget. She baptizes flowers for the benefit of the danish gardeners. How can she do something like this? No other royal ever does something like this. Non has ever visited a flower exhibition or a botanical garden.

At least I'm sure non other princess ever goes shopping or is out with friends so Mary really is nothing than.... - what?

[Madame Royale]

Originally Posted by juliana

I suspect she will have to a lot more to do to catch up with Queen Ingrid.

An irrelevant statement as the Crown Princess isn't Queen Ingrid, and nor is this the mid 20th century.

one about creating a fashion icon and being the best rep of the DRF as the latest book describes.

So its Mary's "fault" for how the media portray her and because someone writes in a book that Mary is the best rep for the royal house that she, herself, feels this to be true? Surely your not being serious, juliana.

Goodness! How long are we going to hold that photo spread/interview against Mary?! Its been four years...can we move on? Is Mary going to be celebrating her 10th, 20th, heck 25th Wedding anniversary and are we still going to be talking about that article?

Its seems that way Zonk, and I dont think it so much that they can't move on, rather, they don't want to.

I think that's pretty sad actually

[Australian]

Originally Posted by Madame Royale

Its seems that way Zonk, and I dont think it so much that they can't move on, rather, they don't want to.

I think that's pretty sad actually

I agree, i think thre reason some don't want to is because they would have nothing else to condemn Mary about and we can't have that now can we lol.

Also, sometimes i wonder what certain posters are arguing about because I don't think some of them know what they are arguing themselves. Just as long as they are condemning her i guess. One can condemn but is that all we have to hear from certain posters?

[Zonk]

Binze...welcome to the Royal Forums and thank you for your insightful comments.

Your comments and examples of some of Mary's activities brought home a much stonger point (at least to me) and is tied into another of Carlota's Points.

Originally Posted by carlota

i think some of us focus on her appearance because that's the only thing we see.

The key phrase is everything we see.....well everything I see about Mary is based on the internet. Its from this forum, other blogs, articles that other members share etc., and an odd article or two in Royalty, Hello, and Majesty (magazines I personally purchase, etc.). So if all of the above is my only introduction to Mary...and yes...they do tend to focus on shallow events...they don't seem to share or convey the true value of the Mary/Human Interest Story......I could agree with Carlotta's statement.

In other words....I don't read Danish and German magazines/newspapers or see Mary on my television on a regular. So perhaps the information that some of us receive is one sided. And not to offend my Australian members...but other than the odd story or two ...a majority of the articles tend to focus on the shallow as well. And yes....I recognize that a lot of the Australian media that I am judging is tabloid/pink press. And I acknowledge that type of media exists in the Danish and German outlets (US too!) as well. The legitimate Australian media focuses on Mary's family, her connection to Australia, etc. So some of the examples that Binze uses to illustrate Mary's work performance as well as projects that she is involved in ......... I am hearing about for the very first time. And I wonder if that is the case for a lot of people who question Mary's dedication to her job or her ability to do it well.

Carlota...I am sorry to use you again as a reference...I swear I am not picking on you. :)

[tabbitha]

Originally Posted by Zonk

Goodness! How long are we going to hold that photo spread/interview against Mary?! Its been four years...can we move on? Is Mary going to be celebrating her 10th, 20th, heck 25th Wedding anniversary and are we still going to be talking about that article?

I think Mary is doing a good job as Crown Princess..and honestly...if you look at her engagement schedule...you can tell that she is just not doing superficial engagements. I think there is a decent mix of all the organizations that she supports. And I agree with Empress about how her engagements are publicized by the media. She shouldn't be blamed that they are goign to put tons of focus on her attending a fashion show vs. visting sick children in the hospital, etc. Unfortunately for all of us...shallow sells over good deeds.

I can also see where some members think she comes across as cold, phony...but really those are just impressions that some of us get via images that are snapped with seconds and videos that don't follow her 24/7. From what I see of her personality...she doesn't seem warm to me either...but really..I don't know her. I don't spend time with her therefore I don't think I can fully judge her personaltiy. For all we know, behind closed doors Mary could be the biggest jokester around with the warmest personality. She could be like Maxima behind closed doors.

Sorry, Carlota...my comments are not directed just towards you...as others have mentioned it before as well.

I have to agree too Zonk
But why does Mary have to act the joker in order for people to FEEL more towards her- why can't she just be the way she is- taking her work seriously which i commend her for-I can't understand why people are hell bent in finding the worst in someone they know nothing about .I'd like to see you (not you Zonk) but others photographed day in day out and see how SOFT and beautiful you look- if she appears COLD then it is because she is concentrating on someone talking to her and is interested in her work- If I saw her laughing and being stupid in every photo I would think she's not taking her role serious and that she is immature.To be honest I have never seen her look cold .To some we only want to see the negative .So what if she had VOGUE photos done- she looked beautiful and I for one wish she had more done...I only wish i looked as half as good as her to be able to do that- half her luck.She is young and beautiful- why not.I love to see what she wears as i do with all the CP's...That's what the forums are for to discuss from what we see- not what is real- no one knows what Mary is really like apart from her family and Fred... I think she is doing a great job..

[lise]

Originally Posted by Binz

I don't know how often I've red similar arguments.
I'm confused and flabbergasted. The following is not meant to criticize your post carlota. Your post is used only as a start.

It's such a worthy activity to travel to Africa or Asia and visit a country in need. And than? Doing what? Cleaning a hospital, washing sick people, changing dirty bed sheets, cooking for the poor and sick or at least giving private money? Can I see pictures of this kind of activities please or do you have an other proof? Oh yes there are this very nice pictures of some princesses. Hugging sad, starving, sick and sometimes happy children. Princesses who are looking sad, shaking hands with doctors or politicians, cuddle exotic animals and sitting at the bed of a sick person looking even more depressed. Ah and sometimes they bring along some money that was donated by the people of her home country. After three or four days they are back at home. What was the real purpose of the visit besides maintaining their image? Maybe her fellow countrymen will donate even more money in the future.

I'm absolutely sure sooner or later Mary will visit a country in need too.

Excellent post Binz I agree, everytime I see a royal visiting a country in need I think all this is really going to do is make them look good. As you said all they seem to there is have their pictures taken with poor children and hand over money that was donated by other people.

I think the reason Mary may come across as cold is because she seems to be taking her work seriously which I think is a good thing.

Also Zonk there's tabloid press in Australia and I have read some useless page filling stuff about Mary before. I don't take any notice of them anymore. Don't worry I'm not offended.

[tabbitha]

Originally Posted by lise

I think the reason Mary may come across as cold is because she seems to be taking her work seriously which I think is a good thing.

Just what i said Lise- good post

[ricarda]

Originally Posted by carlota

it's also a paradox to support danish fashion at fairs, but then dressing in prada. it's the same as if frederik supported sports but never was seen practising one or if alexandra supported humanitarian causes and then was seen buying a product that involves children working on it, as it unfortunately happens in many places in the world.

This too is an argument that I have read many times.
Therefore I want to stress out:
Mary is not out "to support danish fashion at fairs",
she is patron of Copenhagen International Fashion Fair,
it's a fashion fair in Denmark but there are participants from many different countries.

Secondly, Mary is patron of Designers Nest, an award for new designers from Scandinavian countries.

If you want to inform yourself about those patronages here are the links:
http://www.ciff.dk
http://www.designersnest.dk

Neither the first nor the second patronage restricts Mary to wear Danish designers only, quite on the contrary.
Of course Mary has to promote Danish fashion too, and she does by wearing Danish designers.

(Btw Alexandra is patron of the Animal Foundation but she has no problems with wearing fur, for example.)

[sweetness]

Mary is not a lwayer, she is merely a law graudate. She hasn't done the Bar or completed her Articles, which would qualify her as a barrister or solicitor.

Yes, you are right, Little Star....a lot of people in this forum have this misconception that she's a lawyer but she's not!! The recent pregnancy announcement was huge, both on TV and radio, here Australia...and they all referred her as "Mary Donaldson, the former real estate agent...."

[ricarda]

Originally Posted by carlota

there's nothing wrong in baptising a flower. but in my opinion, royals who do more 'challenging' activities deserve more credit and show a lot more of their own personality if they make an intelligent speech, like maxima, mathilde or rania at world conferences or visit a country in need, like maxima, mathilde, mette marit.... that's why we have several 'elements' to build an opinion about them: we can see how they dress and how they behave in different situations, etc and we have an ampler view of that individual. this is a comment that is directly linked to show why people see the 'fashion' side of mary so much.

I like Maxima, Mette-Marit, Mathilde and Rania and I think they all do a great job.
But do you know when they started with their more "challenging" activities?
How many years after their weddings?
What did they do in the first 2 1/2 years of their marriages?
Maxima's involvement with microfinance for example did not start before November 2004, 2 years and ~9 months after her wedding.
Mette-Marit is a crownprincess since August 2001, her involvement with mental health started in 2004, with UNAIDS in April 2006.
Mathilde married in December 1999, Rania married in the early 90ies, I believe.
Besides, not all their engagements are that challenging.
Like Mary they do have engagements that require much preparation and engagements that require less preparation.

And I think that we do have several "elements" to build an opinion about Mary.
It's just that people seem to prefer a restricted view when it comes to Mary.

I don't think Mary is a superprincess but IMO she achieved a lot in her first 2 1/2 years as a crownprincess
and I am curious to watch her next 2 1/2 years.

Or perhaps, as others have suggested she just doesn't have an area she's interested in. Unlike Alex who is passionate about her humans right work,

I have the opposite impressions.
Alexandra's 25 engagements this year don't give me the impression of a passionate involvement with her "human rights work".
Moreover she was not much involved with humanitarian work during the first years of her marriage,
her work for UNICEF for example started in 2002, her busiest years were 2003-2005.
If you ask me Alexandra was first of all interested in creating a positive image for herself
and finding a role that she could sustain even after the divorce from her prince.
I am sure Alexandra does her work efficiently, but with passion? I doubt it.

and they all referred her as "Mary Donaldson, the former real estate agent...."

and she is not a former real estate agent either
although the papers may refer to her as one

[Empress]

Zonk -

I am not picking on you, but you were the one to bring up where one can find information regarding Mary.

I find that one of the better sources is www.kongehuset.dk from there you can link to the crown prince and princesses personal website, which has loads of information. There is also loads of information on the regular royal family website. Some of it is only in Danish, although, speaking Dutch and German I can get the gist of a lot of it, but there is also quite a lot in English if you click to that portion of the site.

Hope that helps. I also totally understand your point regarding how and where we get our information. It does sometimes leave alot to be considered and wished for.

[Little_star]

Originally Posted by tabbitha

I have to agree too Zonk
But why does Mary have to act the joker in order for people to FEEL more towards her- why can't she just be the way she is- taking her work seriously which i commend her for

Where did anybody say she must be a joker? I've looked through the thread and I can't see that comment.
So far as your comment goes, I don't think Mary comes across as serious, often she looks bored and disinterested in some of the photos and other times plain confused. That could just be a language thing, but it doesn't reflect well, imo.

[carlota]

thanks everyone for your replies.

i would like to point out something about those 'silly' engagements. perhaps i used a wrong word. if the danish royal house considers that mary should go to baptise a ship or a flower, then i think that's perfect: after all, they are the experts. every single engagement has importance to someone and by that reason all of them are important BUT we will all have to agree that not all of them require the same effort, preparation and research.

i really think a good speech can and does make a difference. and i strive to support those royals whose activities make a difference. it's as simple as that and my only rule to judge whether royals are making a good job. i really couldn't care less about what royals wear or not wear as long as they are doing well. royals are in a privileged position to change the world little by little and there's so much more to be done rather than baptising a flower. again, that's MY opinion and other's opinions that think the flower business is more important than other issues are also welcome and most appreciated.

i could talk endlesly about the fashion issue, but i don't think there's much point in it.

[Zonk]

Empress...thanks for the info. Yes..I am aware of the link....although I will admit that I rarely visit it...I just count on you guys :)

But I think its worth pointing out that while the Danish Royal site does give out information regarding the particular engagements of its Royals.....it doesn't quite touch on the human aspect of any visit. For an example, the scene that Binze referenced about the patients being excited about Mary's visit. Television can convey a thought, an idea or a reception that no print media can easily convey. Hope that makes sense.

[MargreteI]

Originally Posted by ricarda

I have the opposite impressions.
Alexandra's 25 engagements this year don't give me the impression of a passionate involvement with her "human rights work".
Moreover she was not much involved with humanitarian work during the first years of her marriage,
her work for UNICEF for example started in 2002, her busiest years were 2003-2005.
If you ask me Alexandra was first of all interested in creating a positive image for herself
and finding a role that she could sustain even after the divorce from her prince.
I am sure Alexandra does her work efficiently, but with passion? I doubt it.

Alexandra did not have to do anything to sustain her self after a divorce. The Prince have to sustain her. It is in the marriage documents.

After the divorce was setled it was the parliament who decided to grant her apanage of her own, because of the work she did. However that was not something she could have anticipated under any cirkumstance.

As for her work, I know some divorced women who also all of a sudden have more time to do what they want to.

Finally patronages are for life or until you leave to another royal. That explain why Mary does not have many yet. It would not be smart to just pick a huge amount of noble causes. The patronages she holds are those she has dedicated her self to, and more is added along the way.

[juliana]

Originally Posted by sweetness

Mary is not a lwayer, she is merely a law graudate. She hasn't done the Bar or completed her Articles, which would qualify her as a barrister or solicitor.

Yes, you are right, Little Star....a lot of people in this forum have this misconception that she's a lawyer but she's not!! The recent pregnancy announcement was huge, both on TV and radio, here Australia...and they all referred her as "Mary Donaldson, the former real estate agent...."

You are both correct. She is not a lawyer and never has been- worked in marketing and real estate- nothing wrong with that but it does tend to be ignored by many.
I would like to point out that being a law graduate, unless the student gets very high marks, it is not possible to go on to do the professional training. Many law grads are not qualified to become solicitors or barristers. Usually a 2.1. degree is needed and those who do not get that grade end up doing other jobs- maybe marketing/business occupations.

[Australian]

Originally Posted by Little_star

Where did anybody say she must be a joker? I've looked through the thread and I can't see that comment.
So far as your comment goes, I don't think Mary comes across as serious, often she looks bored and disinterested in some of the photos and other times plain confused. That could just be a language thing, but it doesn't reflect well, imo.

I think Tabbitha knows nobody said she was a joker, it is simply what tabbitha feels after reading this thread most probably, no where did tabbitha said someone said Mary was a joker.It is her observation. And in my opinion, quite accurate.

Well i don't think she looks bored at all, i think she looks attentive. I don't get the impression she is bored or disinterested at all, but again, its a matter of opinion

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by juliana

You are both correct. She is not a lawyer and never has been- worked in marketing and real estate- nothing wrong with that but it does tend to be ignored by many.
I would like to point out that being a law graduate, unless the student gets very high marks, it is not possible to go on to do the professional training. Many law grads are not qualified to become solicitors or barristers. Usually a 2.1. degree is needed and those who do not get that grade end up doing other jobs- maybe marketing/business occupations.

Are you talking about Canada or Australia? I found the information that Mary has two Bachelors, one for law and one for commerce. With her LL.B. degree she could have undertaken a one year articled clerkship or the Legal Practice Course (Commonly Practical Legal Training or PLT) and then apply for registration as a solicitor. Still the LL.B is the basic professional law degree and Mary could have applied for the two year (6 trimester) programme of the University of Melbourne to become a Doctor Juris with it. Instead she made use of her other Baccalaureate and went into commerce (which, as I found, could have lead to an alternative way to register as a solicitor/lawyer specialised in commerce.

As she is the daughter of an academic teacher, I guess at least her father would have been knowledgeable (or fit enough to do research on her behalf) when it comes to acquiring the necessary academic titles for a sucessful career.

Thus, any discussions about whether she is a "lawyer" of whichever country is not necessary - Mary finished the basic law and commerce training of her country's educational system, then worked in a field which would have been accepted as qualification for the next academic step - the post-graduate training to become a titled academic. Instead she decided to become a titled wife and mother...

[Empress]

Well, at the same time as we are all discussing this, we need to bear in mind the privacy of the people that Mary visits in the hospitals, or wherever else. Perhaps it is to protect them that those scenes are not shown on international television. While Mary gave up a certain amount of her privacy when she became a public figure, those people did not. So I would applaud her for not shoving them and the difficulties in the spot light any more than neccesary. I think that it is a good tihng that she does not "take advantage" of these people to boost her public image. Some of these people are seriously ill, have serious issues, and sometimes a kind word is greatly appreciated. I can imagine that were I in their position, I would not want a camera shoved in my face either.

So, maybe it would be an idea that we look at Mary from the point of view that she does do these events, but does not overly publicize the content of the visits/events. She might just very well be protecting the privacy of others.

Also, I think that we should not read too much into the face any body language presented in photos. it might very well be that concentration is being misread as coldness.

On another note, I just do not think that we as people, have the right to JUDGE others. I do not mean any offense to anyone, that is just my opinion. And secondly, everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE, is entitled to the benefit of the doubt.

So while we are all only looking at photos, we might bring some thoughts as above into our thought process before we start making decisions on someones character based only on photos.

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by sweetness

Mary is not a lwayer, she is merely a law graudate.

I wonder if you are a doctor juris or why do you say she is "merely" a law graduate? Being one myself and having taken a similar decision as Mary (she went into commerce instead of doing the course which would have ended up with her being a solicitor, while I trained to become a TV journalist instead of doing the training for a position of judge/prosecutor/solicitor in Germany) I have quite the idea what getting the LL.B means. To be honest, I tried for the German equivalent (Dipl.-Kff.) of Mary's BComm. parallely when studying law but it simply was too much work because I had started as a writer as well (otherwise I wouldn't have gotten the chance at TV.).

So I have a fair idea what she had to do to get these degrees and saying she is "merely" that when in fact she could have used her professional experience to acquire yet another academic title is a bit much, IMHO. Even if you were a professor yourself - in that case I believe you'd have respect for other's academic merits. And there is a world beyond the horizons of university and academic life. IMHO.