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  #261  
Old 02-02-2017, 12:44 PM
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wow! 15 years ago - how time flies...

and look at them now! king and queen, joyous in their roles, having built a lovely family and working on educating the new generation on the strong ethics they represent.
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  #262  
Old 04-30-2017, 12:39 AM
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The Royal Order of Sartorial Splendor: Readers' Top 10 Wedding Gowns: #3. Princess Máxima of the Netherlands

I find Maxima's wedding gown absolutely amazing. Perfect for a future Queen. The fabric and simple design is exquisite and elegant. Her veil is stunningly beautiful as well. The details are immaculate. No doubt, one of my favorites of all time. This gown is regal and simply magnificent.
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  #263  
Old 11-20-2017, 10:34 AM
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Just watched the civil ceremony (I always thought I have watched it before but actually I have not!): https://youtu.be/tjbYHhgzGM4

Laugh when I saw the staff transform the table for W-A & Maxima to sign the document So thoughtful for Maxima!
It's like Constantijn and Maxima's two brothers (I guess?) are teasing their sibling while they come to sign the document, yes that's exactly how the siblings treat each other
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  #264  
Old 05-24-2020, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by MsLeonie View Post
Since I've been locked down for the past three months, I've been watching a lot of TV, mostly cable. Yesterday, I was watching YouTube and I found a video of Willem and Maxima's wedding day. Of course, since I live in the U.S., there was next to nothing about it at the time. Anyway, I was confused about the ceremonies (there appeared to be two or three).

When the film began, the Queen, her husband and what I took to be Maxima's family were walking out of a building and got into cars. Then, Willem and Maxima walked out together and got into a car. The narration was in Dutch so I understood nothing. I thought the wedding had ended and they were off to where ever. But, the cars went to what looked like an office building. When the bride and groom arrived inside the building, the people there clapped and cheered. Then there were words and signing of papers. THEN, everybody got into cars again and went to a church. That's where I saw the heads of state and other royalty enter, along with the tiny bridal attendants. Then there was a VERY LONG wedding ceremony where the bride and groom walked down the aisle together.

My question: What were the previous ceremonies and is this normal for all of this to take place on the same day? The entire thing lasted over three hours. That's long and I can imagine everyone would be exhausted. Prince Claus(?? the Queen's husband??) did not look the picture of health so this must have been really hard for him.

Don't mean to be a dummy but truly I've never seen a wedding like this. It was interesting to watch, like all royal weddings, but "different." If someone could explain, please. Thanks.
As in all Dutch weddings that opt for a blessing ceremony in church, they had a civil wedding and a 'religious wedding' (formally, the only wedding that has any legal status is the civil wedding). And yes, it is common to do both on the same day - although some spread it out over two days (back to back or within the same week). The civil wedding is always first and typically attended by only the closest family members and friends (as you witnessed here as well) and the 'church wedding' is the one that is attended by a larger group of people (anyone you would want to invite for your wedding).

It is against the law to have a religious wedding ceremony if you are not legally married; so, you have to have a civil wedding before you can proceed to the religious ceremony (because of the separation between state and church I assume - so the church cannot take the civil role of marrying people). The religious ceremony is a blessing ceremony (even though vows are exchanged) and has no legal effect. There are several other countries (most Continental & Scandinavian European countries it seems) that also require a civil marriage before a religious ceremony can take place; it seems an Anglo-Saxon tradition to combine the two.

The first part is where they left the Royal Palace of Amsterdam (Het Paleis op de Dam) - which was the first time the public saw the bridal couple. They probably stayed their overnight (as the wedding was in Amsterdam not in The Hague where both of them lived) and at least where they changed into their wedding attire. The balcony ceremony at the end of the day was also at the Royal Palace. So, it's comparable to other royal weddings where the ride to the wedding/marriage ceremony is broadcast.

I guess the 'Beurs van Berlage' (where the civil wedding to place) won't be too happy about your characterization of it being an 'office building'
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  #265  
Old 05-24-2020, 12:52 PM
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The bride and groom on the balcony of the Royal Palace.
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  #266  
Old 05-24-2020, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
As in all Dutch weddings that opt for a blessing ceremony in church, they had a civil wedding and a 'religious wedding' (formally, the only wedding that has any legal status is the civil wedding). And yes, it is common to do both on the same day - although some spread it out over two days (back to back or within the same week). The civil wedding is always first and typically attended by only the closest family members and friends (as you witnessed here as well) and the 'church wedding' is the one that is attended by a larger group of people (anyone you would want to invite for your wedding).

It is against the law to have a religious wedding ceremony if you are not legally married; so, you have to have a civil wedding before you can proceed to the religious ceremony (because of the separation between state and church I assume - so the church cannot take the civil role of marrying people). The religious ceremony is a blessing ceremony (even though vows are exchanged) and has no legal effect. There are several other countries (most Continental & Scandinavian European countries it seems) that also require a civil marriage before a religious ceremony can take place; it seems an Anglo-Saxon tradition to combine the two.

The first part is where they left the Palace - which was the first time the public saw the bridal couple. They probably stayed their overnight (as the wedding was in Amsterdam not in The Hague where both of them lived) and at least where they changed into their wedding attire.
Thanks tons for the info. Is it only the Dutch who do this because I've been watching a lot of royal wedding ceremonies these past couple of months and I've never seen one like theirs, with the civil on the same day and then a two hour wedding ceremony. It just sounds exhausting. I was tired just watching.

At the beginning of the video, Maxima and Willem were walking out of the building together and walked down both aisles together. Very strange to me. In the U.S. we don't do the "civil" thing. However, I've read/seen/heard about civil ceremonies but they all seemed to happen the day or week (or even months) before the wedding ceremony. I had never seen it done on the same day. Poor Maxima had to get in and out of the cars (and a coach at the end) so often with that enormous dress. Thankfully, her four attendants did a stellar job in helping. Just seemed unnecessary to me.

I can't send you a link to the YouTube show I was watching because (1) I have no clue how to do that; and (2) it wasn't on my computer YouTube but on my TV via ROKU so that would be a problem.

Again, thanks for taking the time to explain it all to me. If this lockdown continues, I will have watched just about every royal wedding ceremony there ever was.
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  #267  
Old 05-24-2020, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by MsLeonie View Post
Thanks tons for the info. Is it only the Dutch who do this because I've been watching a lot of royal wedding ceremonies these past couple of months and I've never seen one like theirs, with the civil on the same day and then a two hour wedding ceremony. It just sounds exhausting. I was tired just watching.

At the beginning of the video, Maxima and Willem were walking out of the building together and walked down both aisles together. Very strange to me. In the U.S. we don't do the "civil" thing. However, I've read/seen/heard about civil ceremonies but they all seemed to happen the day or week (or even months) before the wedding ceremony. I had never seen it done on the same day. Poor Maxima had to get in and out of the cars (and a coach at the end) so often with that enormous dress. Thankfully, her four attendants did a stellar job in helping. Just seemed unnecessary to me.

I can't send you a link to the YouTube show I was watching because (1) I have no clue how to do that; and (2) it wasn't on my computer YouTube but on my TV via ROKU so that would be a problem.

Again, thanks for taking the time to explain it all to me. If this lockdown continues, I will have watched just about every royal wedding ceremony there ever was.
I most likely found the coverage that you watched; and can confirm they indeed left the Royal Palace.

And as I said; it's the common thing to do in the Netherlands. Most weddings I've attended, the civil ceremony is during the day; after that there is several hours of 'down time' with the smaller group that attended the civil ceremony - the church ceremony could very well be in the evening (7 pm or so), so people can attend more easily and may even work during the day. Another Dutch royal wedding in which they had both ceremonies back to back was the one between prince Friso and Mabel Wisse Smit. Three of the Van Vollenhoven cousins and their brides; and brother prince Constantijn & Laurentien Brinkhorst had their church wedding two days after the civil wedding. Prince Maurits and Marilene van den Broek had it on back-to-back days.

In the circumstances in which Máxima's father was not allowed to attend the wedding, it made a lot of sense for Willem-Alexander and Máxima to walk down the aisle together. Moreover, it is not uncommon in Netherlands, although many have started to pick up the Anglo-Saxon tradition of having the father 'give away' the bride. In Sweden, it caused a little uproar when Victoria asked her father to do so, so they had Daniel wait for her mid-way. In my personal opinion, it is rather weird to have the father to walk the bride down the aisle in the church (which seems more common than at the civil ceremony) if the couple already married a few hours earlier.
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  #268  
Old 05-24-2020, 06:17 PM
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In the protestant church it is -or at least was- normal for the bride and groom to arrive together. The father handing over the daughter to the husband was used in the catholic church.

Under the influence of American television and films more and more brides now want to be 'given away' by the father. Even in civil weddings or in orthodox protestant churches this habit slowly has creeped in.

I am not sure if any of the main Dutch royals married in the catholic way. Beatrix, Friso, Constantijn, Margriet and Juliana all walked down the aisle with their future spouse.

I can not remember all the Van Vollenhoven weddings but Hans van den Broek did walk his -catholic- daughter Marilène to the altar. The protestant Annemarie Gualtérie van Weezel was escorted to the altar by her protestant father while marrying her catholic husband prince Carlos.

For the daughters of the King I would not be surprised if they will go with the catholic tradition or chose a compromise as in Sweden.

As for the length of the religious ceremony: this is absolutely normal for a Dutch reformed service. I suppose a proper mass will even take longer. I am always surprised with the great speed the Scandinavian royal church services have.
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  #269  
Old 05-24-2020, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
In the protestant church it is -or at least was- normal for the bride and groom to arrive together. The father handing over the daughter to the husband was used in the catholic church.

I am not sure if any of the main Dutch royals married in the catholic way. Beatrix, Friso, Constantijn, Margriet and Juliana all walked down the aisle with their future spouse.

I can not remember all the Van Vollenhoven weddings but Hans van den Broek did walk his -catholic- daughter Marilène to the altar. The protestant Annemarie Gualtérie van Weezel was escorted to the altar by her protestant father while marrying her catholic husband prince Carlos.
I looked up the wedding of Floris and Aimée: they walked in together (the religious wedding starts at 2 min).

But two months earlier Anita was walked down by her father when she married Floris' brother Pieter-Christiaan:


As was Annette when she married prince Bernhard (around 3 min):


And as Marengo already said; Constantijn and Laurentien walked in together.


And yes, I fully agree that the custom was to walk in together (at least for the protestants; haven't been to Catholic weddings in the Netherlands - only abroad). I never really considered asking my father to walk me down the aisle; my brother and his bride didn't do that either but my (younger) sister did. My take on the difference between protestants and Catholics is the difference in perception of the religious wedding; while for the Catholic church it is considered a sacrament and a marriage isn't really acknowledged when it wasn't followed by the church ceremony (for example, for the Roman Catholic church is was not a problem for Letizia to marry Felipe as her first marriage was only a civil one); while the protestant churches see the civil wedding as the moment the marriage takes place and the religious wedding as the blessing of that union (the word 'huwelijksinzegening' ('blessing in' of the marriage) is used instead of 'huwelijkszegening' (blessing of the marriage); however, a marriage is just as valid whether they had the church ceremony or not.
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  #270  
Old 05-25-2020, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
In the protestant church it is -or at least was- normal for the bride and groom to arrive together. The father handing over the daughter to the husband was used in the catholic church.

Under the influence of American television and films more and more brides now want to be 'given away' by the father. Even in civil weddings or in orthodox protestant churches this habit slowly has creeped in.

I am not sure if any of the main Dutch royals married in the catholic way. Beatrix, Friso, Constantijn, Margriet and Juliana all walked down the aisle with their future spouse.

I can not remember all the Van Vollenhoven weddings but Hans van den Broek did walk his -catholic- daughter Marilène to the altar. The protestant Annemarie Gualtérie van Weezel was escorted to the altar by her protestant father while marrying her catholic husband prince Carlos.

For the daughters of the King I would not be surprised if they will go with the catholic tradition or chose a compromise as in Sweden.

As for the length of the religious ceremony: this is absolutely normal for a Dutch reformed service. I suppose a proper mass will even take longer. I am always surprised with the great speed the Scandinavian royal church services have.
Thank you for this information. I am a 75 year old American and a Baptist and I had never seen the bride and groom walk down the aisle together in any religious ceremony. Since I began life well before we had a TV, I don't see how brides could have been influenced by it. As I had mentioned before, I've been watching a lot of weddings while in lockdown on YouTube, including the weddings of the Queen Mother and Princess Marina back in the 20s and 30s, Grace Kelly to Rainier in the 50s and Felipe and Letitia, along with both sisters. I had never seen a Dutch wedding before Saturday. It was interesting, very, very long but interesting. Also, didn't the King of Sweden walk Victoria down the aisle, as well as the other daughter.

I appreciate the differences from one culture to the other so, again, thanks for the information. I just thought it looked "strange" to see a bride and groom walking DOWN the aisle without the father being involved. And the "giving away" is a very old part of the marriage ceremony. It didn't just happen because of television. I'm going to search for some more royal weddings that are not British and just enjoy them. And you're right, that Dutch wedding was very long. I was amazed that everyone still looked happy at the end. And they still had photos to be taken!!
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  #271  
Old 05-25-2020, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by MsLeonie View Post
Thank you for this information. I am a 75 year old American and a Baptist and I had never seen the bride and groom walk down the aisle together in any religious ceremony. Since I began life well before we had a TV, I don't see how brides could have been influenced by it. As I had mentioned before, I've been watching a lot of weddings while in lockdown on YouTube, including the weddings of the Queen Mother and Princess Marina back in the 20s and 30s, Grace Kelly to Rainier in the 50s and Felipe and Letitia, along with both sisters. I had never seen a Dutch wedding before Saturday. It was interesting, very, very long but interesting. Also, didn't the King of Sweden walk Victoria down the aisle, as well as the other daughter.

I appreciate the differences from one culture to the other so, again, thanks for the information. I just thought it looked "strange" to see a bride and groom walking DOWN the aisle without the father being involved. And the "giving away" is a very old part of the marriage ceremony. It didn't just happen because of television.

I'm going to search for some more royal weddings that are not British and just enjoy them. And you're right, that Dutch wedding was very long. I was amazed that everyone still looked happy at the end. And they still had photos to be taken!!
No, 'giving away' is not a very old part of all marriage ceremonies; and theoretically it doesn't make sense when a couple already got married... It makes it easier to appreciate and understand the differences if it is acknowledged that what might be an 'old tradition' in one culture is not an 'old tradition' in other cultures.

In this case, it is indeed an old part of the Roman Catholic and Anglican/Episcopalian marriage ceremonies (and others in countries that are heavily influenced by them). In other countries/traditions, it was never part of the marriage ceremony. In those cases (including the Netherlands and Sweden), it was due to the American influence that this 'foreign idea' of walking a bride down the aisle become more common. Which is also, why Victoria was criticized for it in Sweden and they opted for a compromise (her father didn't walk her down all the way); see video (compared to the wedding in the 70's of her parents where they walked down the aisle together:

Of course, the same cannot be said for American weddings; American television showed American practice - so that wasn't influenced by television. However, we were discussing the Dutch situation in which this American tradition was recently introduced (partly because it was presented as the 'standard' in American television/movies) in protestant weddings - just like for example, nowadays Halloween is celebrated instead of Sint Maarten

Máxima's father was banned from her wedding because of his involvement in de Videla regime in Argentina. Had they not been able to manage this (they send special envoys to Argentina to convince Máxima's father that it was in her best interest that he 'voluntary' decided not to attend his daughter's wedding), Willem-Alexander would have given up the throne to marry her; and we might have had king Constantijn instead (or maybe the Friso and Mabel story would have played out differently in that case). So, especially in these circumstances it was very beneficial that the Dutch tradition is that bride and groom walk into the church together. So, nobody batted an eye.
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  #272  
Old 05-25-2020, 11:17 AM
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It is logical that bride and groom arrive together in Church: for Continental law they already are husband and wife. It is only respect for law not to play a comédie and pretend to be future husband waiting for his wife-to-be. They are a married couple.

In Sweden they found an in-between of the country's tradition (bride and groom together) and the Disney tradition (dad gives away his daughter): King Carl XVI Gustaf walked halfway the aisle with his daughter Victoria and then the bridal couple walked together the other half of the aisle.

In my personal view "daddy giving away his daughter" is an insult to the intellect, the self-determination and the individual independence of women. As if women are not perfectly in case to make their very own choices but have "to be given away" or worse: need "permission".

Maybe it is simply too Anglo-Saxon for me to comprehend that idea.
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  #273  
Old 07-27-2020, 04:31 PM
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It is logical that bride and groom arrive together in Church: for Continental law they already are husband and wife. It is only respect for law not to play a comédie and pretend to be future husband waiting for his wife-to-be. They are a married couple.

In Sweden they found an in-between of the country's tradition (bride and groom together) and the Disney tradition (dad gives away his daughter): King Carl XVI Gustaf walked halfway the aisle with his daughter Victoria and then the bridal couple walked together the other half of the aisle.

In my personal view "daddy giving away his daughter" is an insult to the intellect, the self-determination and the individual independence of women. As if women are not perfectly in case to make their very own choices but have "to be given away" or worse: need "permission".

Maybe it is simply too Anglo-Saxon for me to comprehend that idea.
It's not just Anglo-Saxons who do it, it is also the custom in Celtic countries like Scotland, Ireland and Wales.
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  #274  
Old 07-27-2020, 04:46 PM
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It is against the law to have a religious wedding ceremony if you are not legally married; so, you have to have a civil wedding before you can proceed to the religious ceremony (because of the separation between state and church I assume - so the church cannot take the civil role of marrying people). The religious ceremony is a blessing ceremony (even though vows are exchanged) and has no legal effect. There are several other countries (most Continental & Scandinavian European countries it seems) that also require a civil marriage before a religious ceremony can take place; it seems an Anglo-Saxon tradition to combine the two.

It is not so much "an Anglo-Saxon tradition", but rather just because marriages in the Church of England are legally recognized in the UK without any need for a civil wedding.


That happens in same Catholic countries too. For example, in Spain, although the new constitution of 1978 separated the Church from the State, Catholic marriages are still legally recognized by the State under, I think, the terms of agreements that Spain has signed with the Vatican. Maybe someone more knowledgeable may be able to explain it better.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MsLeonie View Post
Thanks tons for the info. Is it only the Dutch who do this because I've been watching a lot of royal wedding ceremonies these past couple of months and I've never seen one like theirs, with the civil on the same day and then a two hour wedding ceremony. It just sounds exhausting. I was tired just watching.

The Belgians do it too. Google the wedding of Philippe and Mathilde (unfortunately I don't think there is any full video available online, but you can find clips of the civil and religious weddings).


Royals don't do it in England, Spain and Denmark (I think) because, as I said, weddings performed by an authorized religious minister are legally recognized in those countries and a civil wedding is not required. I don't know about Sweden.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
It is logical that bride and groom arrive together in Church: for Continental law they already are husband and wife. It is only respect for law not to play a comédie and pretend to be future husband waiting for his wife-to-be. They are a married couple.

Mathilde was already married to Philippe, but her father walked her down the aisle.



In fact, a bride being walked down the aisle by her father is not exclusively Anglo-Saxon at all. It happens in Portugal, Spain, all Latin American countries, Greece (?), etc. etc.
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  #275  
Old 07-27-2020, 06:51 PM
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Royals don't do it in England, Spain and Denmark (I think) because, as I said, weddings performed by an authorized religious minister are legally recognized in those countries and a civil wedding is not required. I don't know about Sweden.
It's the same in Sweden.
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