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  #161  
Old 01-02-2016, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post


But Princess Alexander is not "like" Princess Elisabetta. Léa does not have a courtesy title, she has a title that was formalized by a Royal Decree like the titles of Prince Lorenz, Princess Claire, Princess Elisabeth, or Prince Amedeo.
Well, Máxima is formally not a Queen at all since her legal title is HRH Princess Máxima of the Netherlands but neither the Court nor the media nor the people use her official title.

Camilla is The Princess of Wales by virtue of marriage but she is always addressed as The Duchess of Cornwall.

James Mountbatten-Windsor simply is HRH Prince James of Wessex by birthright but everyone knows him as James, Viscount Severn.

Liliane Baels never was created Princesse de Réthy but that did not stop the Court, the media and the people using that title anyway.

As spouse to Prince Alexander respectively to Prince Amedeo, the formal courtesy titles are Princess Alexander and Princess Amedeo. But it is seen as more friendly and more personal to address them as Princess Léa and Princess Elisabetta. And that is indeed what the Court does.
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  #162  
Old 01-02-2016, 10:17 AM
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I am sorry, I don't quite understand what you're saying. Is it your opinion that Princess Alexander's title of Princess of Belgium is only a courtesy title?
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  #163  
Old 01-02-2016, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
As spouse to Prince Alexander respectively to Prince Amedeo, the formal courtesy titles are Princess Alexander and Princess Amedeo. But it is seen as more friendly and more personal to address them as Princess Léa and Princess Elisabetta. And that is indeed what the Court does.
It is only that other Princesses have to be vreated a Princess in their own right like Claire and Mathilde. They could simply refer to all married in Princessess as Princess Claire, Princess Mathilde etc. It is like this in the scandinavian monarchies.
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  #164  
Old 01-02-2016, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Well, Máxima is formally not a Queen at all since her legal title is HRH Princess Máxima of the Netherlands but neither the Court nor the media nor the people use her official title.

Camilla is The Princess of Wales by virtue of marriage but she is always addressed as The Duchess of Cornwall.

James Mountbatten-Windsor simply is HRH Prince James of Wessex by birthright but everyone knows him as James, Viscount Severn.

Liliane Baels never was created Princesse de Réthy but that did not stop the Court, the media and the people using that title anyway.

As spouse to Prince Alexander respectively to Prince Amedeo, the formal courtesy titles are Princess Alexander and Princess Amedeo. But it is seen as more friendly and more personal to address them as Princess Léa and Princess Elisabetta. And that is indeed what the Court does.
But....isn't the point that Princess Lea isn't just addressed Princess Lea because it sounds friendlier, but because that in fact is her title?
And that that is what makes the difference between her and for instance Elisabetta who might be friendly named "Princess Elisabetta" but in fact that is not her title because it actually is "Princess Amadeo"?

Sorry about harping on about this, but i try to understand how this works...
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  #165  
Old 01-02-2016, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
But....isn't the point that Princess Lea isn't just addressed Princess Lea because it sounds friendlier, but because that in fact is her title?
And that that is what makes the difference between her and for instance Elisabetta who might be friendly named "Princess Elisabetta" but in fact that is not her title because it actually is "Princess Amadeo"?

Sorry about harping on about this, but i try to understand how this works...
Well... she may be "Princess Léa" but look at this:

The Court (!!!): La Monarchie belge: Accueil - Actualités - Agenda - Décès du Prince Alexandre de Belgique

Her very own charity fund: Fonds d'Entraide Prince et Princesse Alexandre de Belgique

Or the RTBf (the French-speaking Public Broadcaster): La Princesse Alexandre de Belgique du 16 mars 2015, C'est du Belge : RTBF Vidéo

The Royal Sea Cadets School: Nieuwsbrief



So morale of the story: it can be Princess Alexander or Princess Léa, they use it both. It can be Princess Amadeo or Princess Elisabetta, they use it both as well.
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  #166  
Old 01-02-2016, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
But....isn't the point that Princess Lea isn't just addressed Princess Lea because it sounds friendlier, but because that in fact is her title?
The choice of name is ostensibly the woman's or the royal court's decision.

Princess Alexander (Léa) has a substantive legal title by virtue of marrying Prince Alexander when the decree of 1891, which automatically created a woman who marries a Prince of Belgium a Princess of Belgium, was in force.
Quote:
Art. 1er. Dans les actes publics et privés qui les concernent, les princes et les princesses issus de la descendance masculine et directe de feu Sa Majesté Léopold Ier, seront qualifiés de princes et princesses de Belgique, à la suite de leurs prénoms et avant la mention de leur titre originaire de duc ou duchesse de Saxe.
Les princesses unies par mariage aux princes de notre maison royale seront qualifiées de la même manière à la suite des noms et titres qui leur sont propres.
This decree was repealed in December 1991, however, the titles created by it were preserved, which is confirmed by Article 3 of the 2015 decree with respect to royal titles. (If not, Prince Alexander and his sisters Marie-Christine and Esmeralda would have also lost their titles.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
And that that is what makes the difference between her and for instance Elisabetta who might be friendly named "Princess Elisabetta" but in fact that is not her title because it actually is "Princess Amadeo"?

Sorry about harping on about this, but i try to understand how this works...
Elisabetta's formal social title written in the court's thank-you notes is Princess Elisabetta: http://www.koningsfan.dse.nl/bedankkaartje231.jpg
Her legal title written in a royal decree issued last November is Mrs. Elisabetta Maria Rosboch von Wolkenstein: Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad
This corresponds to Belgian noblemen's wives, who are commoners legally but are traditionally addressed by their husbands' titles in society.
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  #167  
Old 01-02-2016, 04:23 PM
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Esmeralda remains Princess of Belgium her whole life; her Children are Alexandra and Leopoldo Moncando.
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  #168  
Old 01-02-2016, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
Esmeralda remains Princess of Belgium her whole life; her Children are Alexandra and Leopoldo Moncando.
Her full style is Her Royal Highness Princess Marie-Esméralda of Belgium, Lady Moncada,I forgot her husband was awarded a Knighthood some years ago.
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  #169  
Old 01-02-2016, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
The choice of name is ostensibly the woman's or the royal court's decision.

Princess Alexander (Léa) has a substantive legal title by virtue of marrying Prince Alexander when the decree of 1891, which automatically created a woman who marries a Prince of Belgium a Princess of Belgium, was in force. This decree was repealed in December 1991, however, the titles created by it were preserved, which is confirmed by Article 3 of the 2015 decree with respect to royal titles. (If not, Prince Alexander and his sisters Marie-Christine and Esmeralda would have also lost their titles.)



Elisabetta's formal social title written in the court's thank-you notes is Princess Elisabetta: http://www.koningsfan.dse.nl/bedankkaartje231.jpg
Her legal title written in a royal decree issued last November is Mrs. Elisabetta Maria Rosboch von Wolkenstein: Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad
This corresponds to Belgian noblemen's wives, who are commoners legally but are traditionally addressed by their husbands' titles in society.
Im somewhat confused. In English, an unmarried woman carries the generic title of "Miss." But here Elisabetta is clearly being referred to as a married woman, "Mrs.," but her last name is still the same as her unmarried last name. So, for instance, my name before marriage is Miss Jane Brown, then when I get married and if I still choose to use my unmarried (or "maiden") name it is still Miss Jane Brown or Ms. Jane Brown, not Mrs. Jane Brown (unless my husband has the exact same last name as my maiden name). If Miss Jane Brown marries Mr Charles Black, then she becomes Mrs. Jane Black. Same with the Duke of York ' s ex-wife. Miss Sarah Ferguson married HRH Prince Andrew of Great Britain, even if she would not have gained a title, she would not have been known as Mrs. Sarah Ferguson. So why the "Mrs." title in front of Lili's maiden name?
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  #170  
Old 01-02-2016, 06:31 PM
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^^^^^ i think this is a little different; in dutch there used to be a similar difference between Mevrouw (married) and Mejuffrouw (unmarried), but this difference is rarely used anymore, all women are Mevrouw unless a woman explicitely wants differently

but i think this is another matter from the royal titles
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  #171  
Old 01-02-2016, 06:41 PM
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Thanks for correcting An Ard Ri.
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  #172  
Old 01-02-2016, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
^^^^^ i think this is a little different; in dutch there used to be a similar difference between Mevrouw (married) and Mejuffrouw (unmarried), but this difference is rarely used anymore, all women are Mevrouw unless a woman explicitely wants differently

but i think this is another matter from the royal titles

The French version of the royal decree refers to her as "Madame" not "Mademoiselle". I suppose then that "Mewrouw" in the Dutch version is indeed supposed to mean "Mrs" rather "Ms".
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  #173  
Old 01-02-2016, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
The French version of the royal decree refers to her as "Madame" not "Mademoiselle". I suppose then that "Mewrouw" in the Dutch version is indeed supposed to mean "Mrs" rather "Ms".
Or did you mean to state "Ms." rather than "Mrs." (=married/divorced, still using ex-husband ' s surname)?
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  #174  
Old 01-02-2016, 08:35 PM
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My understanding is that unmarried women are regularly referred to as Madame (or Mevrouw) in Belgium. All the same, the court always used the old-fashioned Miss (Juffrouw or Mademoiselle) with Elisabetta, Mathilde and Claire before the weddings.
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  #175  
Old 01-03-2016, 07:04 AM
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Sire, Mevrouw , Madame
So were called Queen Fabiola and Queen Paola.
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  #176  
Old 01-03-2016, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
My understanding is that unmarried women are regularly referred to as Madame (or Mevrouw) in Belgium. All the same, the court always used the old-fashioned Miss (Juffrouw or Mademoiselle) with Elisabetta, Mathilde and Claire before the weddings.
Not always Mademoiselle. To make things complicated: in unmarried French aristocrat ladies are Demoiselle, like the Dutch equivalent Jonkvrouw.

See the Act of Marriage of Philippe and Mathilde:

" [...] et Demoiselle Mathilde Marie Christine Ghislaine d'Udekem d'Acoz, née à Uccle, le vingt janvier mil neuf cent septante-trois [...] "

(and Demoiselle Mathilde Marie Christine Ghislaine d'Udekem d'Acoz, born in Uccle, the Twentieth of January Nineteen hundred and seventy-three)




" [...] Dont Acte fait en présence de [...] Demoiselle Élisabeth Marie Hedwige Ghislaine d'Udekem d'Acoz, soeur de l'Epouse, âgée de vingt-deux ans, domiciliée à Bastogne, et de Demoiselle Stéphanie Priscilla Marie-Anne Jane de Radigues de Chennevière, ni parente ni alliée des Epoux, âgée de vingt-quatre ans, domiciliée à Forest. [...] "

( "The Act was set up in the presence of [...] Demoiselle Élisabeth Marie Hedwige Ghislaine d'Udekem d'Acoz, sister of the female spouse, aged Twenty-two years and residing in Bastogne, and of Demoiselle Stéphanie Priscilla Marie-Anne Jane de Radigues de Chennevière, neither parented nor allied to the spouses, aged Twenty-four years and residing in Forest. [...] " )

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  #177  
Old 04-10-2016, 10:44 AM
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The royal palace referred to Princess Elisabetta and her husband as "Prince and Princess Amedeo" when it confirmed her pregnancy to RTL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
Sire, Mevrouw , Madame
So were called Queen Fabiola and Queen Paola.
Queen Mathilde, on the other hand, is said to prefer "Majesty".

According to the made-over website, the kings should only be addressed as Sire (in Dutch and French), while the queens may be addressed as either Majesty or Mevrouw/Madame. The princes and princesses may be addressed as Royal Highness or as Monseigneur (in Dutch and French) or Mevrouw/Madame.

http://www.monarchie.be/nl/monarchie/protocol
http://www.monarchie.be/fr/monarchie/protocole
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  #178  
Old 05-20-2016, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
The royal palace referred to Princess Elisabetta and her husband as "Prince and Princess Amedeo" when it confirmed her pregnancy to RTL.
Elisabetta was again styled Princess Amedeo in the official announcement of her daughter's birth.
http://www.facebook.com/BeMonarchie/...84077428522557

The Twitter account of Place Royale on RTL claims that the daughter of Prince and Princess Amedeo holds the title Princess of Saxe-Cobourg. In November, La Libre similarly claimed that the grandchildren of Princess Astrid and Prince Laurent would have the title Prince or Princess of Saxe-Cobourg. Both stories are unconfirmed.
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  #179  
Old 05-20-2016, 02:28 PM
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An elegant sollution if it is true, esp. for Laurent's children. In the case of Anna Amalia I would have preferred incorporating her into the Belgian nobility as 'Princess de Habsburg-Este', but well. Let's see if the palace gives any clarity on the matter soon. Probably not...

I also noticed the 'Princesse Amedeo'. Not that odd as the nobility is usually still referred to in these ways in society magazines, invitations or family advertisements in newspapers. But f.e. the countess Thierry de Limburg-Stirum calls herself Katia della Faille professionally.
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  #180  
Old 05-20-2016, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
The Twitter account of Place Royale on RTL claims that the daughter of Prince and Princess Amedeo holds the title Princess of Saxe-Cobourg. In November, La Libre similarly claimed that the grandchildren of Princess Astrid and Prince Laurent would have the title Prince or Princess of Saxe-Cobourg. Both stories are unconfirmed.
That's interesting and I also wonder if the grandchildren of Prince Laurent would be styled HRH Prince/Princess of Saxe-Cobourg or just H.H.Prince/Princess of Saxe-Cobourg?
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