Titles of the Belgian Royal Family

[An Ard Ri]

Could the king restore the Hainaut/Flanders titles?

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by Tilia C.

That decree is a smart move, imo. The decree is gender neutral but keeps the number of titled family member within a sensible limit.

Was it just up to the king to issue the decree, or was it done with the approval or cooperation of the government?.

All Belgian royal decrees are issued on the advice of government ministers and are countersigned by one or more ministers who take responsibility for the content of the decree (the King himself is not responsible). In this particular case, the decree was issued on the advice of the Prime Minister and the Minister of Foreign Affairs and countersigned by both.

PHILIPPE, Roi des Belges,
A tous, présents et à venir, Salut.
[...]
Sur la proposition du Premier Ministre et du Ministre des Affaires étrangères,
Nous avons arrêté et arrêtons :
Article 1er.
[....]
Art. 7. Le Premier Ministre et le Ministre ayant les Affaires étrangères dans ses attributions sont chargés, chacun en ce qui le concerne, de l'exécution du présent arrêté.
Donné à Bruxelles, le 12 novembre 2015.
PHILIPPE
Par le Roi :
Le Premier Ministre,
Ch. MICHEL
Le Ministre des Affaires étrangères,
D. REYNDERS

Could the king restore the Hainaut/Flanders titles?

King Albert II issued another decree in 2001 granting the title of Duke or Duchess of Brabant to the eldest child of the monarch, but abolishing the title of Count of Hainaut for the Duke of Brabant's eldest son. That decree is still in force and was not repealed by King Philippe's decree.

[Al_bina]

Originally Posted by *Mara*

... [snipped] And there’s another royal decree concerning Amedeo’s wedding: On September 20th 2015 Amedeo submitted a formal request to have his wedding authorised by a royal decree. King Philippe and Prime Minister Charles Michel tetroactively granted him consent to his marriage, so he and his future children are in line of throne. So far there’s no decree concerning Elisabetta’s title. And I guess there will be none and she will be addressed with her spouse's titles.

I wonder if Amedeo intended to ask for consent to his marriage from the beginning or if he had a change of mind lately. I found the idea of him aiming for indepencence and not asking for consent much more likeable.
Royal decrees can be found here: Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad

[my bolding]
Thanks for the update!
Prince Amedeo's belated request is puzzling, indeed. Upon reading your post, my first question was "What exactly prevented him from asking for a formal marriage consent earlier?"

[Cris M]

Originally Posted by Tilia C.

Btw, I assume that the Swedish King is aiming at a similar concept. Only he does it by conferring individual titles instead of issuing a decree. I really doubt the the grandchildren of CP and Madeleine will get HRH and duchies as well.

I agree with you. But I wonder if they'll have no title at all. Will Prince Carl Philip's grandchildren be just Mr/Ms Bernadotte?

The same with the grandchildren of Prince Laurent. Will a noble title be creat for them or will they become Mr/Ms de Saxe-Coburg et Gotha/ de Belgique?

What about the children of Prince Sverre Magnus of Norway? He's already just a Highness, will his children have titles?

Many questions that will need to be answered in the future.

I guess the male-line grandchildren of Prince Joachim of Denmark will be Counts and Countesses of Monpezat.

[Marengo]

Re: Al Bina

I would say that he informed with the palace what the best way would be. Perhaps they adviced him on this course of action as they were working on the title change but didn't think they could finish it on time for the wedding?

[Blog Real]

Originally Posted by *Mara*

Today a new royal decree concerning the title Prince/ss of Belgium was published. The decree aims to limit the number of persons carrying the title.
- All those who carry the title Prince/ss of Belgium will keep it, Princess Esmeralda and Princess Marie-Christine included.
- King Philippe’s and Crown Princess Elisabeth’s future grandchildren will carry the title Prince/ss of Belgium – Gabriel, Emmanuel und Eleonore will pass the title onto their children, but their grandchildren will not be titled.
- Astrid and Laurent’s future grandchildren will not carry the title Prince of Belgium.
- The royal decree form 1991 which granted all descendants of King Albert II the title Prince/ss of Belgium is declared null and void.


IMO it’s a smart and overdue move to limit the access to Belgian royal titles and to highlight that its basically the king and the crown prince/ss who are the core of the RF.


***********


And there’s another royal decree concerning Amedeo’s wedding: On September 20th 2015 Amedeo submitted a formal request to have his wedding authorised by a royal decree. King Philippe and Prime Minister Charles Michel tetroactively granted him consent to his marriage, so he and his future children are in line of throne. So far there’s no decree concerning Elisabetta’s title. And I guess there will be none and she will be addressed with her spouse's titles.

I wonder if Amedeo intended to ask for consent to his marriage from the beginning or if he had a change of mind lately. I found the idea of him aiming for indepencence and not asking for consent much more likeable.


Royal decrees can be found here: Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad

Amedeo is still in line to the throne? Elisabetta has title princess?

[MAfan]

Amedeo is still in the line of succession to the Belgian throne. As for Elisabetta's Belgian title, nothing has been said on the matter.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Tilia C.

That decree is a smart move, imo. The decree is gender neutral but keeps the number of titled family member within a sensible limit.

Was it just up to the king to issue the decree, or was it done with the approval or cooperation of the government? I keep forgetting: was there a government at the time of Amedeo's wedding? If not, I wonder if that has something to do with him not 'officially' asking approval for his marriage at the time. Maybe the king wanted to sort out the future title questions first. He could have asked Amedeo to wait with the officially asking consent till the matter of the decree was solved.

Btw, I assume that the Swedish King is aiming at a similar concept. Only he does it by conferring individual titles instead of issuing a decree. I really doubt the the grandchildren of CP and Madeleine will get HRH and duchies as well.

There is always a Government. 24 hours a day and 7 days a week. A Government may be outgoing but unless the new Government has been installed, the outgoing Government remains in force. Articles in media like "Belgium is without Government for 200 days" are complete nonsense.

Like in any Constitutional system always and ever a ministerial contraseign is needed. A decision of the King without a contraseign has no jurisdiction and is not covered by the Government.

Belgium has an active nobility. Every year the King grants noble titles or even hereditary nobility. If he can do that to Mrs Jansen, he can do that too to the grandchildren of Prince Laurent. The title Princesse de Réthy is an example.

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by MAfan

Amedeo is still in the line of succession to the Belgian throne. As for Elisabetta's Belgian title, nothing has been said on the matter.

Elisabetta clearly is not a Princess of Belgium in her own right as the title is no longer automatic for consorts of HRHs and no rioyal decree was issued granting her that title. I suppose though that, as Prince Amedeo's wife, she can be referred to by the courtesy title of Princess Amedeo.

As for Amedeo's other titles (archduke of Austria, prince of Hungary and Bohemia, duke of Modena, etc.), they are merely titles of pretense as they are not legally recognized by Austria, Hungary, Italy, or the Czech Republic.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by MAfan

Amedeo is still in the line of succession to the Belgian throne. As for Elisabetta's Belgian title, nothing has been said on the matter.

Like the wife of a Baron can be adressed as Baroness, like the wife of a Viscount can be addressed as Viscountess, so can Donna Elisabetta be called Princess as the legally wedded spouse in a legally approved marriage to a gentleman whom holds the legally recognized titles Prince de Belgique and Archiduc d'Autriche-Este.... So Princess Elisabetta as a titre-de-courtoisie is perfect.

[MAfan]

Originally Posted by Mbruno

I suppose that, as Prince Amedeo's wife, she can be referred to by the courtesy title of Princess Amedeo.

I do believe the same, although for having a confirmation I think we will have to wait and see how she will be called on the first official occasion that will happen.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Blog Real

Amedeo is still in line to the throne?

The new decree authorizing Amedeo's marriage is worded to retroactively restore his succession rights, having retrospective effect from July 4, 2014 - the day before the marriage.

It may be technically illegal, inasmuch as the Constitution (official English translation) clearly says

Article 85

The constitutional powers of the King are hereditary through the direct, natural and legitimate descent from H.M. Leopold, George, Christian, Frederick of Saxe-Coburg, by order of primogeniture.

The descendant mentioned in the first paragraph who marries without the King’s consent or, in his absence, without the consent of those exercising the King’s powers in cases provided for by the Constitution shall be deprived of his right to the crown.

Nonetheless, this right may be restored by the King or, in his absence, by those exercising the powers of the King in cases provided for by the Constitution, but only with the assent of both Houses.

Originally Posted by Mbruno

Elisabetta clearly is not a Princess of Belgium in her own right as the title is no longer automatic for consorts of HRHs and no rioyal decree was issued granting her that title. I suppose though that, as Prince Amedeo's wife, she can be referred to by the courtesy title of Princess Amedeo.

I agree. She has sent cards using the title "Princess Elisabetta" (see here), but it can only be a courtesy title, for the reason that she is not covered under any royal decree, as you said (unlike princesses Mathilde, Claire, and Léa).

The decree retroactively granting consent to her marriage styles her "Mrs. Elisabetta Maria Rosboch von Wolkenstein", which is presumably her legal name and title.


12 NOVEMBER 2015. - Koninklijk besluit houdende instemming met het huwelijk van Zijne Koninklijke Hoogheid Prins Amedeo, Prins van België, met Mevrouw Elisabetta Maria Rosboch von Wolkenstein

12 NOVEMBRE 2015. - Arrêté royal portant consentement au mariage de Son Altesse Royale le Prince Amedeo, Prince de Belgique, avec Madame Elisabetta Maria Rosboch von Wolkenstein

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Cris M

I agree with you. But I wonder if they'll have no title at all. Will Prince Carl Philip's grandchildren be just Mr/Ms Bernadotte?

The same with the grandchildren of Prince Laurent. Will a noble title be creat for them or will they become Mr/Ms de Saxe-Coburg et Gotha/ de Belgique?

What about the children of Prince Sverre Magnus of Norway? He's already just a Highness, will his children have titles?

The problem in Sweden and Norway is that the respective King's can not create new Titles. They can decide about the Title Prince/Princess and the for the members of the Royal Families and the swedish King can also decide about the Dukeodoms for members of the RF which are personal and not heriditary.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

I agree. She has sent cards using the title "Princess Elisabetta" (see here), but it can only be a courtesy title, for the reason that she is not covered under any royal decree, as you said (unlike princesses Mathilde, Claire, and Léa).

She has signed the Card as Elisabetta Maria but not with Princess Elisabetta as far as i cann see in the pic-

[Skippy]

Originally Posted by Stefan

She has signed the Card as Elisabetta Maria but not with Princess Elisabetta as far as i cann see in the pic-

Koninklijke Bedankkaartjes 2015 - search for Elisabetta.
Basically the same as the link that Tatiana Maria gave, but still.
If Amedeo only signs with his name, it would probably be a bit strange if Elisabetta would sign with "Princess Elisabetta".

[Noble Consort Ming]

Originally Posted by Stefan

She has signed the Card as Elisabetta Maria but not with Princess Elisabetta as far as i cann see in the pic-

Scroll further in the link you quoted and you will see a card where she is called Princess Elisabetta.

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

The new decree authorizing Amedeo's marriage is worded to retroactively restore his succession rights, having retrospective effect from July [FONT=Verdana]4, 2014 - the day before the marriage.

It may be technically illegal, inasmuch as the Constitution (official English translation)


I agree. She has sent cards using the title "Princess Elisabetta" (see here), but it can only be a courtesy title, for the reason that she is not covered under any royal decree, as you said (unlike princesses Mathilde, Claire, and Léa).

The decree retroactively granting consent to her marriage styles her "Mrs. Elisabetta Maria Rosboch von Wolkenstein", which is presumably her legal name and title.


12 NOVEMBER 2015. - Koninklijk besluit houdende instemming met het huwelijk van Zijne Koninklijke Hoogheid Prins Amedeo, Prins van België, met Mevrouw Elisabetta Maria Rosboch von Wolkenstein

12 NOVEMBRE 2015. - Arrêté royal portant consentement au mariage de Son Altesse Royale le Prince Amedeo, Prince de Belgique, avec Madame Elisabetta Maria Rosboch von Wolkenstein

Interesting point about the decree being unconstitutional. I agree that a resolution passed by both houses of Parliament would be necessary to restore Amedeo's succession rights, but i doubt anyone will challenge the retroactive decree in the courts.

[Marengo]

Originally Posted by Skippy

Koninklijke Bedankkaartjes 2015 - search for Elisabetta.
Basically the same as the link that Tatiana Maria gave, but still.
If Amedeo only signs with his name, it would probably be a bit strange if Elisabetta would sign with "Princess Elisabetta".

Thank you Skippy.

A direct link to the card: http://www.koningsfan.dse.nl/bedankkaartje231.jpg

[maria-olivia]

We had no Government when Prince Amadeo 's wedding took place in Rome.

His Children will be Imperial and Royal Highnesses of Habsbourg not bad at all. The same for Prince Joachim.

The Girls of Princess Astrid will keep their tittle their whole life ;

For Prince Laurent
The same for Louise
But for the twins future wifes will they be Princesses of Belgium, I don't know.

[eya]

Originally Posted by *Mara*

Today a new royal decree concerning the title Prince/ss of Belgium was published. The decree aims to limit the number of persons carrying the title.
- All those who carry the title Prince/ss of Belgium will keep it, Princess Esmeralda and Princess Marie-Christine included.
- King Philippe’s and Crown Princess Elisabeth’s future grandchildren will carry the title Prince/ss of Belgium – Gabriel, Emmanuel und Eleonore will pass the title onto their children, but their grandchildren will not be titled.
- Astrid and Laurent’s future grandchildren will not carry the title Prince of Belgium.
- The royal decree form 1991 which granted all descendants of King Albert II the title Prince/ss of Belgium is declared null and void.


IMO it’s a smart and overdue move to limit the access to Belgian royal titles and to highlight that its basically the king and the crown prince/ss who are the core of the RF.


***********






Royal decrees can be found here: Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad

Thanks *Mara* for this like the others said very interest. I see that the children of Princess Eleonore will have the titles prince-princess like Princess Madeleine in Sweden. And of course the other i want to say I think of Prince Laurent grandchildren certainly there will be noble titles to give them.