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  #441  
Old 10-08-2020, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post


Thanks for elaborating. Now I understand what you mean.

Sorry, I think I am missing this difference between Articles 2 and 4. Can you elaborate?

But Article 2 does not say "every descendant in male or female line", or even "every child or grandchild in male or female line", so there is no difference there.
I've tried several times (see my previous references to subordinate phrases), not sure that I will succeed this time but will try again

You re right that it says 'children and grandchildren', however, the point was that article 2 DOES specify something, while article 4 does NOT specify anything.

Article 2 says 'children and grandchildren COMMA', there is no such specification in article 4 (it goes straight to descendants), so the specification that is included in article 2 which apparently is interpreted to clarify who they are talking about is missing in article 4. There is only one comma in article 4, while there are two in article 2 - which means the specification that is included in article 2 is NOT included in article 4. In my example I added a comparable specification to show how both articles could be similar in wording; however, because in reality there is no such specification in article 4 the only conclusion can be (imho) that the formulation is not exactly the same as article 2 but has a slightly but important different sentence structure.

However, I'm happy to reword:
Article 2. In the public and private acts relating to them, the Princes and the Princesses, children and grandchildren, born in direct descendance from His Majesty King Albert II carry the title of Prince or of Princess of Belgium following their forename, and, so far as they carry them, their family name and their dynastic title and ahead of the other titles to which their ancestry gives them the right. Their forename is preceded by the predicate His or Her Royal Highness.

would be comparable to

Article 4. The Princes and Princesses, children and grandchildren, born in direct descendance from His Majesty Leopold, George, Christian, Frederick of Saxe-Coburg, who are not covered by Articles 1 to 3, carry following their forename and, so far as they carry it, their family name, the titles to which their ancestry gives them the right.

but not to a phrase that does not include such additional phrase followed by a comma.

(However, the above wouldn't work because articles 1 to 3 cannot apply to any of them as none of his children or grandchildren are alive, that's why I used a different example that would be theoretically possible)

So, if we throw out all ballast from article 4 it reads:
The Princes and Princesses carry following their forename and their family name, the titles to which their ancestry gives them the right.

However, that would be a little hard to interpret, so they added to additional clauses to specify who they were talking about - and one more to recognize that not every prince or princess might have a family name.
The Princes and Princesses, born in direct descendance from His Majesty Leopold, George, Christian, Frederick of Saxe-Coburg, who are not covered by Articles 1 to 3, carry following their forename and, so far as they carry it, their family name, the titles to which their ancestry gives them the right.

It does specifically NOT read: the princes and princesses born in direct descendance... carry (as that comma after princes and princesses in this sentence structure indicates that that full phrase should be removed to simplify the sentence).

Hope this helps (and not further confuses )

Quote:
That was exactly my point: The Royal Decree was not (intended to be) about limiting the title of prince(ss) but about indicating who would and would not be prince(ss) of Belgium. (So, the Royal Decree did not affect Anna Astrid's entitlement to be a princess, only her entitlement to be a princess of Belgium.)
That's something we've agreed on from the start

The fact that this article is interpreted to indicate that Delphine and her children as children and grandchildren of Albert are princesses and prince of Belgium (which falls within the intention of the royal decree: to indicate who is a prince(ss) of Belgium) MAKES them prince and princess; not the other way around. This is not applicable to article 4 which doesn't confer the title of prince(ss) of Belgium (or any other title) on anyone.
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  #442  
Old 10-09-2020, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
For the present, I have not read another interpretation which is capable of explaining why, for example, members of the royal family were styled Princes and Princesses before the decrees, or why the 1891 report stated what it did.
It can be even more intersesting to nete that before 1891 they were not only Princes and Princesses but alsa had style of HRH. And if one can say they were princes/ses of SCG, nobody can say they were SCG HRH because SCG were merely Highnesses.

I suppose it was just custom that children of king are princes/ses and HRH. I have read famous discussion in The Times in 1957 concerning princely title of the Duke of Edinburgh. He was named Prince Philip every time in media but was not prince. As result of discussion he was finally granted the title he really used for decade.

Look at page of Almanac de Gotha 1886. It was before 1891 decree but they all were princes/ses and Alt.Roy. Please note that this information was approved by the court. Thus in 1891 it was just transferred from custom into law.



And 1890:

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  #443  
Old 10-09-2020, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
By my understanding they bear the surname De Roumanie Medforth-Mills and prefer to be known as De Roumanie. . Nicholas is a Swiss-born son from British and Romanian parents, residing in Romania. No idea which passport he uses and how his surname is in it.
No, their legal surnames at birth did not include de Roumanie. How they may have used or represented the name since is a different matter. Nicholas's sister in particular is little interested and very low-key about her royal background. Her friends know her as Karina Medforth-Mills. Sorry, this is quite tangential to the topic here, but I was responding to a questionable comparison made above concerning double royal surnames.
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  #444  
Old 07-06-2021, 08:54 PM
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If Princess Elisabeth marries a foreign Prince, does he automatically become HRH Prince of Belgium?

If Princess Elisabeth marries a foreign Prince, will he still not be considered a Prince because he was born a Prince?
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  #445  
Old 07-07-2021, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
I've tried several times (see my previous references to subordinate phrases), not sure that I will succeed this time but will try again
Thank you for your detailed explanation. I still am not sure I have understood your arguments, but your patience is much appreciated.


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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
The fact that this article is interpreted to indicate that Delphine and her children as children and grandchildren of Albert are princesses and prince of Belgium [...]
Indeed, the court interpreted it in that manner. But I was not questioning the court's interpretation. I was questioning the interpretation of "royal experts" on social media who claimed that it was Delphine's right to become a princess of Belgium but also claimed that Delphine and Astrid had no right to pass titles on to their children/grandchildren.


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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Article 2 says 'children and grandchildren COMMA', there is no such specification in article 4 (it goes straight to descendants) [...] the formulation is not exactly the same as article 2 but has a slightly but important different sentence structure.
Yes, because Article 4 (no matter which interpretation one accepts) is not restricted by degree of kinship to children and grandchildren. Thus, there is no need for a clause in commas to specify the degree limitation.

I'm afraid I still do not see how the lack of a degree of kinship clause relates to the interpretation of whether or not Article 2/Article 4 applies the designation of "Prince or Princess" to every member of the class of descendants that is mentioned in that article (children and grandchildren of Albert II in Article 2; descendants of Leopold I in Article 4).

Hopefully, my point will be clearer if I adopt your excellent idea of color-coding to indicate the comparable parts of Article 2 and Article 4.

Article 2. In the public and private acts relating to them, the Princes and the Princesses, children and grandchildren, born in direct descendance from His Majesty King Albert II carry the title of Prince or of Princess of Belgium following their forename, and, so far as they carry them, their family name and their dynastic title and ahead of the other titles to which their ancestry gives them the right. Their forename is preceded by the predicate His or Her Royal Highness.

Article 4. The Princes and Princesses, born in direct descendance from His Majesty Leopold, George, Christian, Frederick of Saxe-Coburg, who are not covered by Articles 1 to 3, carry following their forename and, so far as they carry it, their family name, the titles to which their ancestry gives them the right.


The formulations in red are identical in Article 2 and Article 4.

The formulation in blue specifies a class of descendants.
Article 2: children and grandchildren of Albert II
Article 4: descendants of Leopold I who are not already covered by the preceding articles

The formulation in purple specifies what is to be "carried".
Article 2: ancestral titles, Prince/ss of Belgium, HRH, (optionally) family name, (optionally) dynastic title
Article 4: ancestral titles, (optionally) family name

If I understand your earlier explanations: The social media "experts" interpreted Article 2 by applying the formulation in purple to every member of the class in blue. According to this interpretation, Article 2 would confer HRH Prince/ss of Belgium and ancestral titles (the purple) on every child or grandchild of Albert II (the blue).

Then, if we are to interpret Article 4 consistently with that interpretation of Article 2, meaning by applying the formulation in purple to every member of the class in blue: Article 4 would be interpreted as conferring ancestral titles (the purple) on every descendant of Leopold I not already covered by other rules (the blue).

That is why the "experts"' interpretation of Articles 2 and 4 (specifically, that Delphine is entitled to be a princess but Delphine's children and Astrid's (grand)children are not) strikes me as inconsistent.
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  #446  
Old 07-07-2021, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
If Princess Elisabeth marries a foreign Prince, does he automatically become HRH Prince of Belgium?

No, he has to be created a Prince of Belgium in his own right by a separate royal decree. Since 1991, that requirement also applies to wives of Princes of Belgium.


Mathilde, Claire and Lorenz are all Princesses/Prince of Belgium in their own right.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
The fact that this article is interpreted to indicate that Delphine and her children as children and grandchildren of Albert are princesses and prince of Belgium (which falls within the intention of the royal decree: to indicate who is a prince(ss) of Belgium) MAKES them prince and princess; not the other way around. This is not applicable to article 4 which doesn't confer the title of prince(ss) of Belgium (or any other title) on anyone.

I think the intention of Arts. 1 and 2 in King Philippe's royal decree was pretty clear and the court interpreted it correctly: all children and grandchildren of King Albert II are to be Princes/Princesses of Belgium with the style of HRH. Delphine's or Astrid's grandchildren on the other hand are/will not be either HRHs or Princes/Princesses of Belgium as they are/will not be born as children or grandchildren of a king, or children or grandchildren of a Crown Prince.



The confusing part to me is whether Art.4 implies that all descendants of Leopold I are entitled to the prefix Prince/Princess even though they are neither HRHs nor Princes/Princesses of Belgium.



As of today, there are descendants of Leopold I who are not in the line of succession to the throne and do not use the prefix Prince/Princess, e.g. the descendants of Princess Marie-Esméralda. King Baudouin's 1991 decree included an article with similar wording to Art.4 in the new decree, but with an important difference that it explicitly applied only to descendants of Leopold I in male line. Has the titulaire of Princess Esméralda's children, or of her children's descendants born after the new decree came into force changed and can they now call themselves Prince/Princess? Maybe they should ask the courts to clarify that.
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  #447  
Old 07-07-2021, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
No, he has to be created a Prince of Belgium in his own right by a separate royal decree. Since 1991, that requirement also applies to wives of Princes of Belgium.

Mathilde, Claire and Lorenz are all Princesses/Prince of Belgium in their own right.
However, even in cases where a wife of a Prince of Belgium has not legally been created a Princess of Belgium, the Palace refers to her as a princess. At times the Palace uses the formulation "Princess Alexandre/Amedeo of Belgium" for such wives, and at other times "Princess Léa/Elisabetta" without the territorial designation.

https://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...ml#post2340994

There is no comparable tradition of courtesy titles for husbands. Prior to his legal creation as Prince of Belgium, Princess Astrid's husband was referred to by the Palace as "Archduke Lorenz of Austria-Este".

I hope - but do not expect - that will change when the next generation of princesses marries.
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  #448  
Old 07-07-2021, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I think the intention of Arts. 1 and 2 in King Philippe's royal decree was pretty clear and the court interpreted it correctly: all children and grandchildren of King Albert II are to be Princes/Princesses of Belgium with the style of HRH. [...]

The confusing part to me is whether Art.4 implies that all descendants of Leopold I are entitled to the prefix Prince/Princess even though they are neither HRHs nor Princes/Princesses of Belgium.
As I discussed in detail in the post preceding yours, and in this earlier post, I believe that is the only interpretation of Article 4 which is consistent with the interpretation of Article 2 to mean "all children and grandchildren of King Albert II are to be Princes/Princesses of Belgium with the style of HRH".

Do you see another possible (consistent) interpretation?

I am fairly sure that this interpretation of Articles 2 and 4 was not the intention of King Philippe, but that is a different issue.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
King Baudouin's 1991 decree included an article with similar wording to Art.4 in the new decree, but with an important difference that it explicitly applied only to descendants of Leopold I in male line.
Could you cite the article? I do not see it.
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  #449  
Old 07-07-2021, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post

Could you cite the article? I do not see it.

Sorry, it was actually the decree of 14/3/1891, where it says:


Quote:

"Art. 1er. Dans les actes publics et privés qui les concernent, les princes et les princesses issus de la descendance masculine et directe de feu Sa Majesté Léopold Ier, seront qualifiés de princes et princesses de Belgique, à la suite de leurs prénoms et avant la mention de leur titre originaire de duc ou duchesse de Saxe.
Les princesses unies par mariage aux princes de notre maison royale seront qualifiées de la même manière à la suite des noms et titres qui leur sont propres.
That is to be read in conjunction with Art.3 of the 2015 decree, which kept the titles of Prince/Princess of Belgium and, presumably, of Duke/Duchess of Saxe for that same class of people (assuming they are still deemed entitled to the latter by virtue of their family origin).



Quote:
Art. 3. Les Princes et les Princesses qui portent le titre de Prince ou de Princesse de Belgique en vertu de l'arrêté royal du 14 mars 1891 qualifiant Princes et Princesses de Belgiqueles Princes et Princesses issus de la descendance masculine et directe de feu Sa Majesté Léopold Ier gardent ce titre à la suite de leur prénom et, pour autant qu'ils le portent, de leur nom de famille et avant les autres titres qui leur reviennent de droit par leur ascendance. Leur prénom est précédé par le prédicat Son Altesse Royale.
Art.1 of the 1991 decree was the first reference to descendants in female line as Prince/Princess, but it applied only to Prince Albert's descendants. Art.4 of the 2015 decree referred in turn to all descendants of Leopold I, including descendants in female line who do not descend from Albert II, as Prince/Princess, which is the confusing part.

Note that the royal decree of 1891, in conjuction with Art.3 of the royal decree of 2015, also guarantees that Queen Paola for example retains the title of Princess of Belgium, but the same doesn't apply to any woman married to a Prince of Belgium after 1991.
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  #450  
Old 07-08-2021, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
If Princess Elisabeth marries a foreign Prince, will he still not be considered a Prince because he was born a Prince?
I expect him to be titled as prince but probably not with the style (at least that is what happened to Lorenz if I am not mistaken; his HIIH wasn't recognized but him being an Archduke was); but he won't automatically be a prince of Belgium - but will most likely be made a prince of Belgium in his own right.
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  #451  
Old 07-08-2021, 10:07 PM
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Might he not have to renounce a foreign title if he's the future consort?
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  #452  
Old 07-08-2021, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
I expect him to be titled as prince but probably not with the style (at least that is what happened to Lorenz if I am not mistaken; his HIIH wasn't recognized but him being an Archduke was)
Lorenz's son, born before the abolition of Salic law in 1991, was styled as HIRH Prince Amedeo in his (Belgian) birth registration. I suppose his father's HIRH would likewise have been recognized in any Belgian documents where his name appeared.

After their creations as Princes and Princesses of Belgium, Lorenz and his children were recognized as HRH in Belgium and were styled as HRH Prince/Princess. Examples can be found in the court circular.


Note: I replied belatedly in post #445 to your thoughtful response to me regarding the royal experts on social media, although I admittedly still find it impossible to understand their logic.

If anyone should have further information on that issue, I remain very interested in hearing it. Making inconsistent statements on social media would be nothing abnormal in and of itself, but these comments were made by self-proclaimed experts.
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  #453  
Old 11-03-2021, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
Was Prince Albert styled Duke of Brabant at the time of the wedding?
For whatever reason, King Leopold II never styled either of his brother's sons as Duke of Brabant or with any other historical dynastic title, even after it became obvious that no legitimate son was forthcoming and his nephews would inherit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by macedonsky View Post
Exactly. But in registrary office not via court.

AFAIK applicant was Delphine, she won her surname and the court decision can not affect another persons and their surnames.
The opinion that surnames belong to the jurisdiction of the registry office rather than the courts was submitted by the counsel for King Albert II. As we know, his interpretation did not prevail in the courts.

Whether or not the surname of the O'Hare children was changed (there were conflicting reports on that question), they were indisputably affected by the court decision to the extent of being judicially created Princess and Prince of Belgium.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
In the official communication (on Monarchie.be), she is called HRH Princess Delphine, so she is addressed with her new title, which is another sign of acceptance of her new status as Princess.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
She is legally HRH Princess Delphine, so I would expect the palace to address her correctly.
Royal palaces in Belgium and elsewhere very often do not address people with their legally correct titles. For instance, until he was created Prince of Belgium, the Palace addressed Lorenz as HI&RH Archduke Lorenz of Austria-Este, and not as Mr. Lorenz Habsbourg-Lorraine.


Quote:
Originally Posted by macedonsky View Post
We are not experts in Belgian law but I think that Her Royal Highness was born as daughter of heк present father :)
Since you are discussing Belgian law and not biology, from the legal point of view Delphine was born as the daughter of Jonkheer Jacques Boël, thus the necessity for legal action in order to become the daughter of King Albert II.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Delphine could have opted for o'Hare de Saxe-Cobourg or De Saxe-Cobourg o'Hare (see De Roumanie Medforth Mills or Van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Addapalla View Post
de Roumanie in Nicholas and Karina's case is one of their middle names. The siblings' legal surname in the UK: Medforth-Mills.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Addapalla View Post
No, their legal surnames at birth did not include de Roumanie. How they may have used or represented the name since is a different matter. Nicholas's sister in particular is little interested and very low-key about her royal background. Her friends know her as Karina Medforth-Mills. Sorry, this is quite tangential to the topic here, but I was responding to a questionable comparison made above concerning double royal surnames.
The post did not include any comparisons, questionable or otherwise, of the legal distinction (or the lack thereof) between "middle names" and "surnames" in Belgian and UK law. It merely cited the Roumanie Medforth-Mills siblings as an example of persons who bear both paternal and maternal family names. (And after reading the UK government's explainer on the applicable law, it is far from clear to me that the distinction is present in UK law.)
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  #454  
Old 11-06-2021, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by macedonsky View Post
You invented the title "prince/ss of Nowhere".
Quote:
Originally Posted by macedonsky View Post
Yes, I read all messages in this thread.
In that case, you will be aware that "the title 'prince/ss of Nowhere'" was your invention and not mine.
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  #455  
Old 11-06-2021, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by macedonsky View Post
Oh, God!

Article 1-3: "some descendants of Leopold I IS princes(ses) of Belgium".
Article 4: "other descendants of Leopold I IS NOT princes(ses) of Belgium".

No.

Once more, Article 4:
Art. 4. De Prinsen en Prinsessen, geboren uit de nakomelingschap in rechte lijn van Zijne Majesteit Leopold, Joris, Christiaan, Frederik van Saksen-Coburg en die niet worden beoogd door de artikelen 1 tot 3, voeren na hun voornaam en voor zover ze die voeren, hun familienaam, de titels die hun krachtens hun ascendentie toekomen.

Art. 4. Les Princes et Princesses, issus de la descendance directe de Sa Majesté Léopold, Georges, Chrétien, Frédéric de Saxe-Cobourg qui ne sont pas visés par les articles 1er à 3, portent à la suite de leur prénom et, pour autant qu'ils le portent, de leur nom de famille, les titres qui leur reviennent de droit par leur ascendance.
Translation:
Article 4. The Princes and Princesses, born in direct descendance from His Majesty Leopold, George, Christian, Frederick of Saxe-Coburg, who are not covered by Articles 1 to 3, carry following their forename and, so far as they carry it, their family name, the titles to which their ancestry gives them the right.

There are a variety of legitimate interpretations of the message of Article 4.

For instance, as Somebody pointed out, it could be interpreted that Article 4 specifies the order in which any other descendants of Leopold I who may happen to be princes(ses) should use their titles - but without specifying which descendants are entitled to be princes(ses) or hold titles. (In my opinion, this interpretation comes nearer to King Philippe's intentions.)

Or, as Mbruno pointed out, it could interpreted that Article 4 entitles all other descendants of Leopold I to be princesses/princes, but (unlike Articles 1, 2 and 3) not "of Belgium". (For Article 2, the Brussels court of appeals adopted an interpretation analogous to this one, as we saw in 2020.)


But there is no room for the interpretation that the message of Article 4 is "other descendants of Leopold I IS NOT princes(ses) of Belgium".
(ETA: As a clarification for readers who have not read the preceding discussion, I am not arguing that the other descendants are princes(ses) of Belgium: They are not. The point is that this is not because of Article 4, and it is not the purpose of Article 4.)

In Article 4, there is simply no reference to princes(ses) of Belgium per se.

In addition, Article 4's only mention of Articles 1 through 3 (the articles which do deal with princes(ses) of Belgium) neither adds nor subtracts anything from what is already laid down in Articles 1-3.


That being said, should any of the fluent French or Dutch speakers know of another possible reading, I welcome their corrections.
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  #456  
Old 11-06-2021, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Lorenz's son, born before the abolition of Salic law in 1991, was styled as HIRH Prince Amedeo in his (Belgian) birth registration. I suppose his father's HIRH would likewise have been recognized in any Belgian documents where his name appeared..
Lorenz's name actually appears in the transitional provisions of the Belgian constitution in connection with the constitutional amendment that introduced equal primogeniture in the royal succession. As you can see, he is not referred to as HIRH or any specific prefix, but rather only by the title Archduke of Austria-Este postponed to his forename.

Quote:
I. Les dispositions de l’article 85 seront pour la première fois d’application à
la descendance de S.A.R. le Prince Albert, Félix, Humbert, Théodore, Christian, Eugène, Marie, Prince de Liège, Prince de Belgique, étant entendu que le mariage de S.A.R. la Princesse Astrid, Joséphine, Charlotte, Fabrizia, Elisabeth, Paola, Marie, Princesse de Belgique, avec Lorenz, Archiduc d’Autriche-Este, est censé avoir obtenu le consentement visé à l’article 85, alinéa 2.
The royal decree of 10/11/1995 that made Lorenz a Prince of Belgium in his own right also cites him as Archduke [Given Names] of Austria-Este without any style prefix. In this case, however, unlike in the constitution, the prefix HRH is also omitted before Princess Astrid's name although the titular dignity of Princess is prefixed to the given names.

Quote:
Art. 1er. Dans les actes publics et privés qui le concernent, l'Archiduc Lorenz – Otto – Carl - Amedeus d'Autriche-Este, époux de Notre Fille bien-aimée, la Princesse Astrid – Joséphine – Charlotte – Fabrizia – Elisabeth – Paola - Marie, Princesse de Belgique, sera qualifié Prince de Belgique à la suite des noms et titres qui lui sont propres.
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  #457  
Old 11-29-2021, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by macedonsky View Post
It can be even more intersesting to nete that before 1891 they were not only Princes and Princesses but alsa had style of HRH. And if one can say they were princes/ses of SCG, nobody can say they were SCG HRH because SCG were merely Highnesses.

I suppose it was just custom that children of king are princes/ses and HRH. [...]

Look at page of Almanac de Gotha 1886. It was before 1891 decree but they all were princes/ses and Alt.Roy. Please note that this information was approved by the court. [...]



And 1890:


The parts of your comment which I have quoted are factual. They however do not support your assertion that "as daughter she was HRH by virtue of 1891 decree" (even if we pass over the fact that the 1891 decree was repealed in 1991).

On the contrary, the Almanach de Gotha substantiates that the 1891 Royal Decree was not meant to allow a future Delphine, or any other future descendant (legitimate or illegitimate), to be born as HRH Princess. Every single person ("direct male-line descendants from His late Majesty Leopold I") who was potentially impacted by the 1891 decree at the time the decree was issued already was HRH Princess or Prince (or HM King) by custom.
Article 1. In the public and private acts relating to them, the princes and the princesses born in direct male descendance from His late Majesty Leopold I will be referred to as princes and princesses of Belgium, following their first names and preceding the mention of their original title of duke or duchess of Saxony.

Quote:
Originally Posted by macedonsky View Post
Thus in 1891 it was just transferred from custom into law
There is little point in guesswork about the intentions of the 1891 Royal Decree, because the report about the Royal Decree presented by the Government in 1891 makes the government's intentions plain and explicit:

[...] on ne les désigne que par leur prénom, mais à l'étranger, on qualifie nos princes et princesses du nom de la Belgique et tel est bien leur nom qui leur revient.
Nous avons la conviction, Sire, de répondre au vœu de tous, en soumettant à la signature royale un arrêté qui leur confère ce nom, [...]

Translation:

([...] we designate them solely by their forename, but in foreign countries, they refer to our princes and princesses by the name of Belgium, and indeed such is their name that they merit.
We are determined, Sir, to answer the wishes of all, by subjecting to the royal signature a decree which confers this name on them, [...])

So it was enacted not to make any person a prince or princess, but to officially confer the name (surname) "of Belgium" on those male-line descendants of Leopold I who were already, by custom, princes and princesses. It was the surname, not the title, that was transferred from custom into law by the 1891 Royal Decree.

https://www.heraldica.org/topics/roy...e.htm#Belgique
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  #458  
Old 12-27-2021, 06:16 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 5,586
I wonder what will happen concerning the titles of Princess Maria Laura, her future husband William Isvy, and any possible children of the marriage.


The princess:

Princess Maria Laura's official style will certainly continue to be HRH Princess Maria Laura, in the same way that her mother (since the succession changes of 1991) is officially styled as HRH Princess Astrid, Princess of Belgium.

https://www.monarchie.be/en/royal-fa...rincess-astrid

However, if Laura and William continue to live in Britain, I wonder if she will call herself Mrs. Isvy in private life, in accordance with British custom.


Her future husband:

William Isvy will not acquire any legal titles; Prince Amedeo's wife Lili Rosboch did not.

However, the Royal Palace currently styles Lili by courtesy as Princess Elisabetta Rosboch von Wolkenstein, which is often shortened to Princess Elisabetta.

https://www.lesoir.be/246315/article...e-annoncent-la
https://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...ml#post2186635

Will the Palace likewise give William Isvy the courtesy style of Prince William Isvy or Prince William after marriage? Probably not, as there is little to no modern precedent in the nobility for a man to be addressed with his spouse's title even as a courtesy, but unlike the nobility, the royal family has introduced gender-equal succession for the descendants of King Albert II.


The possible future children of the marriage:

Any children from the marriage will almost certainly take their surname from their father. It remains exceedingly rare for a Belgian woman to transmit her surname to her children, and I believe it is even rarer amongst the nobility.

Any children also will not inherit their mother's HRH or territorial designation "of Belgium". The predicate HRH and the title Prince/ss of Belgium are no longer hereditary, except for the children and grandchildren of the King or Crown Princess, under the Royal Decree of November 24, 2015.

https://www.ejustice.just.fgov.be/cg...75&caller=list

However, Article 4 of the decree refers to "Princes and Princesses" who descend from King Leopold I but are not Princes and Princesses "of Belgium". Prince Amedeo's children appear to fall under that category, as his daughter Anna Astrid was entered into her birth certificate as "Her Imperial and Royal Highness Princess Anna Astrid Marie Archduchess of Austria-Este (Habsburg-Lorraine)" (emphasis added). Moreover, the Royal Palace has always given her the style of Princess Anna Astrid (rather than Archduchess Anna Astrid).

https://www.lesoir.be/53935/article/...us-de-belgique
https://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...ml#post2117594

But it is unclear if Princess Maria Laura's possible children would be styled in the same way, being children of a Princess instead of a Prince. Although Article 4 of the Royal Decree says nothing about "male line", titles of nobility such as Prince/ss are normally transmitted in the male line only.

https://diplomatie.belgium.be/en/ser...s/nobility/faq
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  #459  
Old 12-27-2021, 06:49 AM
Majesty
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 8,726
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
I wonder what will happen concerning the titles of Princess Maria Laura, her future husband William Isvy, and any possible children of the marriage.


The princess:

Princess Maria Laura's official style will certainly continue to be HRH Princess Maria Laura, in the same way that her mother (since the succession changes of 1991) is officially styled as HRH Princess Astrid, Princess of Belgium.

https://www.monarchie.be/en/royal-fa...rincess-astrid

However, if Laura and William continue to live in Britain, I wonder if she will call herself Mrs. Isvy in private life, in accordance with British custom.


Her future husband:

William Isvy will not acquire any legal titles; Prince Amedeo's wife Lili Rosboch did not.

However, the Royal Palace currently styles Lili by courtesy as Princess Elisabetta Rosboch von Wolkenstein, which is often shortened to Princess Elisabetta.

https://www.lesoir.be/246315/article...e-annoncent-la
https://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...ml#post2186635

Will the Palace likewise give William Isvy the courtesy style of Prince William Isvy or Prince William after marriage? Probably not, as there is little to no modern precedent in the nobility for a man to be addressed with his spouse's title even as a courtesy, but unlike the nobility, the royal family has introduced gender-equal succession for the descendants of King Albert II.


The possible future children of the marriage:

Any children from the marriage will almost certainly take their surname from their father. It remains exceedingly rare for a Belgian woman to transmit her surname to her children, and I believe it is even rarer amongst the nobility.

Any children also will not inherit their mother's HRH or territorial designation "of Belgium". The predicate HRH and the title Prince/ss of Belgium are no longer hereditary, except for the children and grandchildren of the King or Crown Princess, under the Royal Decree of November 24, 2015.

https://www.ejustice.just.fgov.be/cg...75&caller=list

However, Article 4 of the decree refers to "Princes and Princesses" who descend from King Leopold I but are not Princes and Princesses "of Belgium". Prince Amedeo's children appear to fall under that category, as his daughter Anna Astrid was entered into her birth certificate as "Her Imperial and Royal Highness Princess Anna Astrid Marie Archduchess of Austria-Este (Habsburg-Lorraine)" (emphasis added). Moreover, the Royal Palace has always given her the style of Princess Anna Astrid (rather than Archduchess Anna Astrid).

https://www.lesoir.be/53935/article/...us-de-belgique
https://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...ml#post2117594

But it is unclear if Princess Maria Laura's possible children would be styled in the same way, being children of a Princess instead of a Prince. Although Article 4 of the Royal Decree says nothing about "male line", titles of nobility such as Prince/ss are normally transmitted in the male line only.

https://diplomatie.belgium.be/en/ser...s/nobility/faq

There is some confusion as to whether Anna-Astrid and Maximilian are referred to as Princess/Prince based on their membership of the House of Austria-Este or as a consequence of Art 4 of the Royal Decree of 2015. Hopefully, that will be clarified once and for all when Princess Maria Laura has children of her own as they will be the first great-grandchildren of King Albert II who are not entitled to the style of HRH and the title of Prince or Princess of Belgium under the Royal Decree of 2015 and do not hold any other royal title inherited in paternal line.
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  #460  
Old 12-27-2021, 07:04 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 12,601
Most likely she will remain known as prinses Maria Laura, like her aunts are always referred to as prinses Marie-Christine, prinses Maria Esmeralda and prinses Margareta. Her sister-in-law is usually mentioned as prinses Elisabetta.
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