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  #441  
Old 10-08-2020, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post


Thanks for elaborating. Now I understand what you mean.

Sorry, I think I am missing this difference between Articles 2 and 4. Can you elaborate?

But Article 2 does not say "every descendant in male or female line", or even "every child or grandchild in male or female line", so there is no difference there.
I've tried several times (see my previous references to subordinate phrases), not sure that I will succeed this time but will try again

You re right that it says 'children and grandchildren', however, the point was that article 2 DOES specify something, while article 4 does NOT specify anything.

Article 2 says 'children and grandchildren COMMA', there is no such specification in article 4 (it goes straight to descendants), so the specification that is included in article 2 which apparently is interpreted to clarify who they are talking about is missing in article 4. There is only one comma in article 4, while there are two in article 2 - which means the specification that is included in article 2 is NOT included in article 4. In my example I added a comparable specification to show how both articles could be similar in wording; however, because in reality there is no such specification in article 4 the only conclusion can be (imho) that the formulation is not exactly the same as article 2 but has a slightly but important different sentence structure.

However, I'm happy to reword:
Article 2. In the public and private acts relating to them, the Princes and the Princesses, children and grandchildren, born in direct descendance from His Majesty King Albert II carry the title of Prince or of Princess of Belgium following their forename, and, so far as they carry them, their family name and their dynastic title and ahead of the other titles to which their ancestry gives them the right. Their forename is preceded by the predicate His or Her Royal Highness.

would be comparable to

Article 4. The Princes and Princesses, children and grandchildren, born in direct descendance from His Majesty Leopold, George, Christian, Frederick of Saxe-Coburg, who are not covered by Articles 1 to 3, carry following their forename and, so far as they carry it, their family name, the titles to which their ancestry gives them the right.

but not to a phrase that does not include such additional phrase followed by a comma.

(However, the above wouldn't work because articles 1 to 3 cannot apply to any of them as none of his children or grandchildren are alive, that's why I used a different example that would be theoretically possible)

So, if we throw out all ballast from article 4 it reads:
The Princes and Princesses carry following their forename and their family name, the titles to which their ancestry gives them the right.

However, that would be a little hard to interpret, so they added to additional clauses to specify who they were talking about - and one more to recognize that not every prince or princess might have a family name.
The Princes and Princesses, born in direct descendance from His Majesty Leopold, George, Christian, Frederick of Saxe-Coburg, who are not covered by Articles 1 to 3, carry following their forename and, so far as they carry it, their family name, the titles to which their ancestry gives them the right.

It does specifically NOT read: the princes and princesses born in direct descendance... carry (as that comma after princes and princesses in this sentence structure indicates that that full phrase should be removed to simplify the sentence).

Hope this helps (and not further confuses )

Quote:
That was exactly my point: The Royal Decree was not (intended to be) about limiting the title of prince(ss) but about indicating who would and would not be prince(ss) of Belgium. (So, the Royal Decree did not affect Anna Astrid's entitlement to be a princess, only her entitlement to be a princess of Belgium.)
That's something we've agreed on from the start

The fact that this article is interpreted to indicate that Delphine and her children as children and grandchildren of Albert are princesses and prince of Belgium (which falls within the intention of the royal decree: to indicate who is a prince(ss) of Belgium) MAKES them prince and princess; not the other way around. This is not applicable to article 4 which doesn't confer the title of prince(ss) of Belgium (or any other title) on anyone.
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  #442  
Old 10-09-2020, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
For the present, I have not read another interpretation which is capable of explaining why, for example, members of the royal family were styled Princes and Princesses before the decrees, or why the 1891 report stated what it did.
It can be even more intersesting to nete that before 1891 they were not only Princes and Princesses but alsa had style of HRH. And if one can say they were princes/ses of SCG, nobody can say they were SCG HRH because SCG were merely Highnesses.

I suppose it was just custom that children of king are princes/ses and HRH. I have read famous discussion in The Times in 1957 concerning princely title of the Duke of Edinburgh. He was named Prince Philip every time in media but was not prince. As result of discussion he was finally granted the title he really used for decade.

Look at page of Almanac de Gotha 1886. It was before 1891 decree but they all were princes/ses and Alt.Roy. Please note that this information was approved by the court. Thus in 1891 it was just transferred from custom into law.



And 1890:

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  #443  
Old 10-09-2020, 09:07 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Durham, United States
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
By my understanding they bear the surname De Roumanie Medforth-Mills and prefer to be known as De Roumanie. . Nicholas is a Swiss-born son from British and Romanian parents, residing in Romania. No idea which passport he uses and how his surname is in it.
No, their legal surnames at birth did not include de Roumanie. How they may have used or represented the name since is a different matter. Nicholas's sister in particular is little interested and very low-key about her royal background. Her friends know her as Karina Medforth-Mills. Sorry, this is quite tangential to the topic here, but I was responding to a questionable comparison made above concerning double royal surnames.
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