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  #301  
Old 01-07-2019, 09:18 PM
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2) Saxe-Coburg family name and titles


The 2015 decree enacted changes to the rules of using "other titles" following the title Princess or Prince of Belgium.


1991 decree
[...] seront qualifiés Princes ou Princesses de Belgique, à la suite de leurs prénoms.
Translation
[...] will be referred to as Princes or Princesses of Belgium, following their first names.

2015 decree
[...] portent le titre de Prince ou de Princesse de Belgique à la suite de leur prénom et, pour autant qu'ils les portent, de leur nom de famille et de leur titre dynastique et avant les autres titres qui leur reviennent de droit par leur ascendance. [...]
Translation
[...] carry the title of Prince or of Princess of Belgium following their first name and, so far as they carry them, their family name and their dynastic title and ahead of the other titles to which their ancestry gives them the right. [...]


As stated in the last source below, the Court styled the male-line descendants of King Leopold I as Princesses and Princes of Belgium, Duchesses and Dukes of Saxony, Princesses and Princes of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha in their communication to the 2017 edition of the publication Le Carnet Mondain.

Surprise, en effet, en découvrant « Le carnet mondain » dans sa version 2017. Tous les membres de la famille royale issus de la descendance de Léopold Ier (donc pas les épouses de rois, Mathilde et Paola, ou les conjoints de princes, Lorenz et Claire), à l’exception des enfants/petit-enfant d’Astrid et Lorenz, portent désormais aussi les titres de « Duc de Saxe, Prince de Saxe-Cobourg-Gotha » ou « Duchesse de Saxe, princesse de Saxe-Cobourg-Gotha ».

[...]

[...] comme le précise le volumineux ouvrage mondain, que « les informations concernant la famille royale de belgique sont reproduites tellse qu'elles nous sont communiquées par le Palais »."

[...]

Qu’en dit le Palais royal, justement ? [...] « L’arrêté royal de 2015 a confirmé que les membres de la famille royale portent les titres auxquels ils ont droit de part leur ascendance. C’est le cas », se borne-t-il à répondre.
Translation
Surprising indeed on finding "Le carnet mondain" in its 2017 edition. All of the members of the royal family born in descent from Leopold I (thus not the wives of the kings, Mathilde and Paola, or the spouses of the princes, Lorenz and Claire), with the exception of the children/grandchild of Astrid and Lorenz, henceforth carry as well the titles of "Duke of Saxony, Prince of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha" or "Duchess of Saxony, Princess of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha".

[...]

[...] the bulky work specifies that "the information concerning the royal family of Belgium is reproduced from that which was communicated to us by the Palace"."

[...]

What does the Royal Palace have to say for it? [...] "The Royal Decree of 2015 confirmed that the members of the royal family bear the titles to which their ancestry gives them the right. This is the case," is its limited response.

The issue of what the legal surname(s) (and titles) of the born royals may be is complex and gives rise to divisions even between specialists in Belgian law. Different understandings were argued by King Baudouin, King Albert II, and King Philippe respectively.

King Philippe, according to the clarifications of the 2015 decree communicated by the royal court to the media, thinks that (for example) his daughter's legal surname is "of Saxe-Coburg" and her legal name is "HRH Princess Elisabeth Thérèse Marie Hélène, Duchess of Brabant, Princess of Belgium, Duchess of Saxony, Princess of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha".

LOI - WET
Le Roi limite l’octroi du titre de "prince de Belgique" - La Libre
Quel nom pour les princes qui ne seront plus «de Belgique»? - Le Soir
https://www.docme.ru/doc/1728984/le-soir-104-2017 (page 7)
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  #302  
Old 01-07-2019, 09:19 PM
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Interestingly, in November 2018, when the New York Times queried King Albert II's lawyer about Delphine Boël's legal rights should a court decision potentially recognize her as Albert's daughter, his lawyer agreed with King Philippe's 2015 opinion of the royal family's surnames.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/05/w...paternity.html
A lawyer for Albert, Guy Hiernaux, said that Albert would “think about the appropriate reaction to today’s decision, which is not in his favor.”

[…]

Asked whether Ms. Boël could claim a succession to the Belgian throne, Mr. Hiernaux said that “if she’s proven to be his biological daughter, she could hypothetically take his aristocratic name,” which is Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.

But to become a member of the royal family and claim succession to the throne, she would first need the agreement of the Belgian government — and “we’re not quite there yet,” he said.

Delphine Boël herself is said to agree with King Philippe's opinion. The Belgian newspapers have stated she has decided that if she is recognized as Albert's daughter, she intends to take his surname and she considers it is "of Saxe-Coburg".
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  #303  
Old 01-08-2019, 06:34 AM
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Join Date: May 2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
2) Saxe-Coburg family name and titles


The 2015 decree enacted changes to the rules of using "other titles" following the title Princess or Prince of Belgium.


1991 decree
[...] seront qualifiés Princes ou Princesses de Belgique, à la suite de leurs prénoms.
Translation
[...] will be referred to as Princes or Princesses of Belgium, following their first names.

2015 decree
[...] portent le titre de Prince ou de Princesse de Belgique à la suite de leur prénom et, pour autant qu'ils les portent, de leur nom de famille et de leur titre dynastique et avant les autres titres qui leur reviennent de droit par leur ascendance. [...]
Translation
[...] carry the title of Prince or of Princess of Belgium following their first name and, so far as they carry them, their family name and their dynastic title and ahead of the other titles to which their ancestry gives them the right. [...]


As stated in the last source below, the Court styled the male-line descendants of King Leopold I as Princesses and Princes of Belgium, Duchesses and Dukes of Saxony, Princesses and Princes of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha in their communication to the 2017 edition of the publication Le Carnet Mondain.

Surprise, en effet, en découvrant « Le carnet mondain » dans sa version 2017. Tous les membres de la famille royale issus de la descendance de Léopold Ier (donc pas les épouses de rois, Mathilde et Paola, ou les conjoints de princes, Lorenz et Claire), à l’exception des enfants/petit-enfant d’Astrid et Lorenz, portent désormais aussi les titres de « Duc de Saxe, Prince de Saxe-Cobourg-Gotha » ou « Duchesse de Saxe, princesse de Saxe-Cobourg-Gotha ».

[...]

[...] comme le précise le volumineux ouvrage mondain, que « les informations concernant la famille royale de belgique sont reproduites tellse qu'elles nous sont communiquées par le Palais »."

[...]

Qu’en dit le Palais royal, justement ? [...] « L’arrêté royal de 2015 a confirmé que les membres de la famille royale portent les titres auxquels ils ont droit de part leur ascendance. C’est le cas », se borne-t-il à répondre.
Translation
Surprising indeed on finding "Le carnet mondain" in its 2017 edition. All of the members of the royal family born in descent from Leopold I (thus not the wives of the kings, Mathilde and Paola, or the spouses of the princes, Lorenz and Claire), with the exception of the children/grandchild of Astrid and Lorenz, henceforth carry as well the titles of "Duke of Saxony, Prince of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha" or "Duchess of Saxony, Princess of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha".

[...]

[...] the bulky work specifies that "the information concerning the royal family of Belgium is reproduced from that which was communicated to us by the Palace"."

[...]

What does the Royal Palace have to say for it? [...] "The Royal Decree of 2015 confirmed that the members of the royal family bear the titles to which their ancestry gives them the right. This is the case," is its limited response.

The issue of what the legal surname(s) (and titles) of the born royals may be is complex and gives rise to divisions even between specialists in Belgian law. Different understandings were argued by King Baudouin, King Albert II, and King Philippe respectively.

King Philippe, according to the clarifications of the 2015 decree communicated by the royal court to the media, thinks that (for example) his daughter's legal surname is "of Saxe-Coburg" and her legal name is "HRH Princess Elisabeth Thérèse Marie Hélène, Duchess of Brabant, Princess of Belgium, Duchess of Saxony, Princess of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha".

LOI - WET
Le Roi limite l’octroi du titre de "prince de Belgique" - La Libre
Quel nom pour les princes qui ne seront plus «de Belgique»? - Le Soir
https://www.docme.ru/doc/1728984/le-soir-104-2017 (page 7)

So, should we infer that Prince Laurent’s grandchildren will be called “ Prince/ Princess xxx, Duke/Duchess of Saxony, Prince/Princess of Saxe-Coburg -Gotha” without the HRH style ?

As far as family names are concerned, even though King Philippe’s children’s family name may be Saxe-Coburg, they don’t use it in practice after their given names and before the title of Prince/Princess of Belgium as the 2015 royal decree mandates that family names be used. My interpretation then still is that, for all practical purposes they don’t use a family name and that “ Prince of Saxe-Coburg -Gotha”, if used at all, is a title rather than a family name.
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  #304  
Old 01-28-2020, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
The claim to the titles was confirmed by a communiqué from the Palace itself in 2017. It is true that it has not been used in any public legal document.

Here is the quote from the Palace communiqué, which I posted in the thread on titles and styles:




Again, I will return to this in the thread Titles of the Belgian Royal Family.

But if you read the Royal Decree of November 12, 2015, the Civil Code, the statements from the Palace in 2015, and the commentary from legal experts in 2015, it is clear that the Royal Decree would likely be unenforceable (and the name on Princess Anna Astrid's birth certificate in 2016 would likely be incorrect) unless the Saxe-Coburg titles and surname are valid. And if it is not clear, I will be happy to explain in the thread Titles of the Belgian Royal Family in due course.

Princess Anna Astrid does not carry the name Saxe-Coburg, nor any Saxe-Coburg titles.



The royal decree only says that family names are used after given names and before dynastic titles as long as the person in question carries them. I don't see any evidence King Albert or his children ever carried a family name.



The royal decree also says that other titles to which they are entitled by descendance are used after "prince of Belgium". I am not sure either if they are entitled by descendance to use "prince of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha" and "duke of Saxony" as those titles have been abolished in Germany, but by the House laws they are. Again, there is no proof other than the palace note that they are actually using it in legal documents. Does Anna-Astrid use Archduchess of Austria-Este ? The royal decree where consent is given to Prince Amedeo's marriage refers to hin only as Prince of Belgium and omits Archduke of Austria-Este or family names, apparently in violation of the 2015 decree per your logic.



Quote:
PHILIPPE, Roi des Belges,
A tous, présents et à venir, Salut.
Vu l'article 85, alinéa 2, de la Constitution;
Considérant la demande formelle qui Nous a été adressée le 20 septembre 2015 par Son Altesse Royale le Prince Amedeo, Prince de Belgique, à consentir au mariage avec Mme Elisabetta Maria Rosboch von Wolkenstein, célébré le 5 juillet 2014,
Nous avons arrêté et arrêtons :
Article unique. Consentement est accordé au mariage de Son Altesse Royale le Prince Amedeo, Prince de Belgique, avec Madame Elisabetta Maria Rosboch von Wolkenstein, célébré le 5 juillet 2014.
Le présent consentement produit ses effets le 4 juillet 2014.
Donné à Bruxelles, le 12 novembre 2015.
PHILIPPE
Par le Roi :
Le Premier Ministre,
Ch. MICHEL
Le Ministre de la Justice,
K. GEENS
Please also note that all articles in the 2015 decree on titles apply exclusively to the "Princes and Princesses [....]", which some people understand to mean the dynasts (in the French sense of princes du sang), i.e. legitimate descendants of Leopold I in male line up to Albert II and any legitimate descendant (in paternal or maternal line) of Albert therafter. It is not clear if Delphine falls under that category.
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  #305  
Old 01-28-2020, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Princess Anna Astrid does not carry the name Saxe-Coburg, nor any Saxe-Coburg titles.
Nor did I say she did. What I said is that without the validity of those titles (for others), the name on her birth certificate would be arguably incorrect.

Again, I will respond to your points, but as you raise a long list of good questions and points and the available information is unfortunately printed in many different articles and sources, it will take some time (if you would like, I can outline the main points for you by private message, but a full answer with sources will need more work).
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