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  #301  
Old 04-02-2018, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
However, initially she was called 'princess Elisabetta' (without HRH or a designation)... at least in their 'thank you cards' (see link in previous post). So, apparently the royal family did not think she was 'HRH princess Amedeo of Belgium'.
Consistency is not the strongest characteristic of the Belgian monarchy... But the current card seamlessly fits in standing practice and tradition. Finally.
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  #302  
Old 04-02-2018, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Consistency is not the strongest characteristic of the Belgian monarchy... But the current card seamlessly fits in standing practice and tradition. Finally.
Indeed.

However, I'm still not sure about Anna Astrid's title... (I know others are but to me it seems 'inconsistent' and as we've seen with Elisabetta it might take a little while before they have sorted these things out)
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  #303  
Old 04-02-2018, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Regarding the earlier discussions on Elisabetta's (and Anna Astrid's) titles. It's interesting to see the development in thank you-cards sent out by the royal family.

At first Elisabetta is considered 'princess Elisabetta' (but without HRH). On one of them Astrid, Lorenz and Amedeo are indicated as HRH but Elisabetta lacks this style. The card sent regarding their 2nd wedding anniversary however refer to her as 'TRH prince and princess Amedeo of Belgium'. So, it seems that before the retroactive permission to marry Elisabetta was considered a princess (without a designation) but not a royal highness and since the permission was granted she is now considered a royal highness as 'prince Amedeo of Belgium'.
Interesting, and a plausible answer. If I might add an alternative solution, it is also a possibility that she is only allowed the style of HRH when she uses her husband's title as a courtesy.

In all cases when the royal family and court styled Lili Rosboch as a Princess of Belgium, she was styled Princess Amedeo of Belgium. By contrast, whenever the family and court styled Lili as a Princess without a designation, they styled her Princess Elisabetta.

Which may possibly indicate that when Lili is styled Princess Elisabetta, she is being addressed with the title of "Princess" (as demonstrated earlier in the thread, the title of "Princess" is independent of the title "Princess of Belgium"), in her own right, and not the title "Princess of Belgium", which she takes from her husband.

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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Indeed.

However, I'm still not sure about Anna Astrid's title... (I know others are but to me it seems 'inconsistent' and as we've seen with Elisabetta it might take a little while before they have sorted these things out)
Are you not sure about the legal basis for it, or are you not sure that it is used? There's no question that the title is (consistently) used: The royal family, court, and civil registry have used it with absolute consistency (so far), even on the legal registration of birth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
However, initially she was called 'princess Elisabetta' (without HRH or a designation)... at least in their 'thank you cards' (see link in previous post). So, apparently the royal family did not think she was 'HRH princess Amedeo of Belgium'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Consistency is not the strongest characteristic of the Belgian monarchy... But the current card seamlessly fits in standing practice and tradition. Finally.
In her most current thank-you cards (the ones sent for her daughter's birthday and her own birthday in 2017), she was again called Princess Elisabetta.
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  #304  
Old 04-02-2018, 05:40 PM
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Archduchess Anna Astrid of Austria-Este is currently 7th in line to the Belgian throne surely the Belgian royal court can clarify her title?
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  #305  
Old 04-02-2018, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
Archduchess Anna Astrid of Austria-Este is currently 7th in line to the Belgian throne surely the Belgian royal court can clarify her title?
Is there an address we can write to in order to seek clarification ?
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  #306  
Old 04-02-2018, 05:58 PM
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Clarification would be nice to have, but at least the court has been consistent with styling her Princess Anna Astrid (rather than Archduchess Anna Astrid). Read the official statements and birth certificate here:

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...ml#post2071175

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Is there an address we can write to in order to seek clarification ?
There is contact information here, though I have no idea whether the Palace would send a reply.

https://www.monarchie.be/en/monarchy...people/contact
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  #307  
Old 04-03-2018, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
If I might add an alternative solution, it is also a possibility that she is only allowed the style of HRH when she uses her husband's title as a courtesy.
To correct myself, the card sent out in connection with Anna Astrid's birthday seems to have used both "Princess Elisabetta" and "Royal Highness" regarding Lili Rosboch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
- Letters from the household of Princess Astrid (one in English is pictured in the photograph here) styled her granddaughter as Princess Anna Astrid.
"Their Royal Highnesses Princess Astrid, Prince Lorenz, Prince Amedeo and Princess Elisabetta thank you for the kind wishes you have sent on the occasion of the first birthday of our little sunshine Princess Anna Astrid.

Jan Matthysen
Ambassador (ret.)
Advisor to Princess Astrid"


Addressing the previous discussions in the thread, pertaining to who is seen as a descendant "in direct line", here is the Belgian legal system's concept of "direct line", defined by the Civil Code.

Dutch - LOI - WET
French - LOI - WET

Translated into English:

Quote:
Art. 735. The proximity of consanguinity is stipulated by the number of generations; each generation is called a degree.

Art. 736. The succession of the degrees makes the line: the succession of degrees between people who descend one from the other is called direct line; the succession of degrees between people who do not descend from each other, but who descend from a common ancestor, collateral line.

[…]
In Dutch:

Quote:
Art. 735. De afstand in bloedverwantschap wordt bepaald door het getal van de generaties; elke generatie wordt een graad genoemd.

Art. 736. De opvolging van graden maakt de lijn : men noemt rechte lijn de opvolging van graden tussen personen die de ene van de andere afstammen; zijlijn, de opvolging van graden tussen personen die niet de ene van de andere, maar van een gemene stamvader afstammen.

[...]
In French:

Quote:
Art. 735. La proximité de parenté s'établit par le nombre de générations; chaque génération s'appelle un degré.

Art. 736. La suite des degrés forme la ligne : on appelle ligne directe la suite des degrés entre personnes qui descendent l'une de l'autre; ligne collatérale, la suite des degrés entre personnes qui ne descendent pas les unes des autres, mais qui descendent d'un auteur commun.

[...]
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  #308  
Old 04-03-2018, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
To correct myself, the card sent out in connection with Anna Astrid's birthday seems to have used both "Princess Elisabetta" and "Royal Highness" regarding Lili Rosboch.
The 'their royal highnesses could also refer to only the first three (Astrid, Lorenz and Amedeo; as that would be more consistent with previous cards). Interestingly Anna Astrid is not considered a (royal) highness (which apparently is inconsistent with her birth certificate on which she was considered a imperial and royal highness (as an archduchess of Austria-Este no doubt) but a princess of nothing...
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  #309  
Old 04-03-2018, 06:02 PM
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I think "princess Elisabetta" or "princess Anna-Astrid" are a sort of easygoing way, like we see (in media) "Duchess Catherine". I have also seen communiqué s by the Dutch Court saying "Koning Willem-Alexander en Koningin Máxima" while their style is The King and Queen Máxima. I think they try to be more accessible. Maybe that happens here as well.
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  #310  
Old 04-03-2018, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
The 'their royal highnesses could also refer to only the first three (Astrid, Lorenz and Amedeo; as that would be more consistent with previous cards). Interestingly Anna Astrid is not considered a (royal) highness (which apparently is inconsistent with her birth certificate on which she was considered a imperial and royal highness (as an archduchess of Austria-Este no doubt) but a princess of nothing...
It is the same with the cards sent by Filip and Mathilde and Laurent and Claire in connection with their children's birthdays. The children are called Prince(ss) without a predicate and the parents are called Their Majesties or Their Royal Highnesses.
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  #311  
Old 04-03-2018, 08:44 PM
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The fact that Astrid’s family think of themselves as princes of the Austro-Hungarian Empire confuses things. I know other posters don’t necessarily agree, but my interpretation still is that, post-2015:

1. Persons who are born as children or grandchildren of the King or the heir to the throne are princes/princesses of Belgium and HRHs.

2. All other dynasts who are not in category 1 above are, however, also princes and princesses, but not HRHs or ‘“of Belgium”..

The distinction is similar to the one between “enfants/ petits-enfants de France” and “princes du sang”. in the old French monarchy.

Royal wives on the other hand are “of Belgium” and HRHs in their own right only if they are given that title and style by a specific royal decree. Otherwise, they may use their husbands’ title and style by courtesy,

Hence, Claire is HRH Princess Claire of Belgium; Lili is HRH Princess Amedeo of Belgium,Archduchess of Austria-Este, and Anna—Astrid is Princess Anna-Astrid, Archduchess of Austria-Este with no HRH or “of Belgium”.
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  #312  
Old 04-03-2018, 09:34 PM
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Can you explain the old French system? That might help interpret the confusing Belgium situation. Thanks in advance!
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  #313  
Old 04-03-2018, 09:55 PM
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The children of the King, children of the Dauphin, and, I believe, children of the eldest son of the Dauphin were “enfants de France”. The grandchildren of the King in male line (other than the children of the Dauphin) were “petits-enfants de France”. Both enfants and petits-enfants de France had the style of HRH.

All other descendants in male line of Hugh Capet who were not either enfants or petits-enfants de France were “ princes du sang”. The most senior agnate who was not in the Maison de France in particular was the “premier prince du sang” ( a position once held by the Bourbons, the Bourbon-Condés, and the Orléans at different times). I believe “princes du sang” were entitled to the style of Serene Highness, but they were not HRHs or members of the Royal Family (Maison de France).

Generally speaking, Dynasts in France were , however, referred to by their peerages, rather than being called “Prince xxx”.
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  #314  
Old 04-03-2018, 10:20 PM
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Thanks! So, these princes du sang; would they just be 'prince Julien' or '(HSH) prince Julien of France/Something else (such as Bourbon/Orléans/i.e. their 'house')'?

Important difference seems to be that they were princes by blood according to the rules of their house of origin as male-line descendants; this is not the case for the Belgian great grandchildren in female line - who seem to apply it quite arbitrarily (as for example king Leopold own grandchildren by his youngest daughter aren't even addressed as prince and princess nor are any (other) great grandchildren of former Belgian monarchs in female line - unless a prince/princess because of their paternal lineage).
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  #315  
Old 04-03-2018, 11:02 PM
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The French posters probably can give you a better answer, but my understanding is that nobody was actually (normally) called “ Prince”. In the Old Regime. The princes of the Royal Family had peerages and were referred to by their titles in the peerage. The “family name”, if you will, of all princes of the blood who descended from a particular petit-enfant de France was in turn the territorial designation of that petit-enfant’s peerage ; the peerage itself descended by male primogeniture and was held at each generation by the head of that collateral branch of the Capetian dynasty. I. Also believe that, in conversation, people were never called “Royal Highness” or “Serene Highness”, but rather Monseigneur, Madame or Monsieur.

In Belgium, however, the royal decree of 2015 explicitly says that the style of Royal Highness precedes in public and private acts the names of persons who bear the title of Prince/Princess of Belgium. Moreover, in addition to the princes/princesses of Belgium properly, the decree mentions other “princes and princesses” born as direct descendants of Leopold I , but who are not entitled to the same prefix of HRH. or to the title of “Prince or princess of Belgium”. I think Anna-Astrid falls under that category.

The members by birth of the Belgian Royal Family properly are consistently cited in official documents as

Son Altesse Royale le / la Prince/Princesse xxx, Prince/Princesse de Belgique

and don’t use any family name. If they have an additional dynastic title like Duc/Duchesse de Brabant or Comte de Flandre, it appears before Prince/Princesse de Belgique and after the given names. The royal wives, however. use their maiden family name, e.g.

Son Altesse Royale la Princesse Claire Coombs, Princesse de Belgique

versus

Son Altesse Royale la Princesse Élisabeth Thérèse Marie Hélène, Duchesse de Brabant, Princesse de Belgique

In second person, however, as in the French custom, princes/princesses of Belgium are normally addressed as Monseigneur/Madame rather than Royal Highness.

In conclusion, my interpretation is that prince is a rank (shared by all dynasts) whereas ‘prince of Belgium’ is a title reserved only to members (or former members ) of the Royal Family, which the 2015 decree narrowed down to persons born as children or grandchildren of the monarch or the heir to the throne.
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  #316  
Old 05-29-2018, 07:49 PM
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Princes of Belgium: in which generation, if any, does the title stop?

In the United Kingdom, the title of prince is limited to the sons and patrilineal grandsons of the monarch—except, of course, where HM has, essentially, granted the title early to the grandchildren of the Prince of Wales.

Is there a Belgian equivalent? Would the children of Prince Nicolas and Prince Aymeric be Princes and Princesses of Belgium, or just de Belgique / van België / von Belgien?

It appears that since 1831 there has not yet been a legitimate male-line great-grandson of a king of the Belgians whose grandfather did not become king. So precedent is no guide. Does anyone know the law?

Thanks!
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  #317  
Old 05-29-2018, 08:21 PM
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The monarchies all have their own take on titles.

In 1991 when Belgium introduced absolute primogeniture, it didn't simply impact succession. It affected all those eligible for titles. Unlike the UK where Anne's children are in line of succession, but could not take their mother's titles/styles, Belgium was different. Astrid's children all became prince/ss of Belgium, as well as their father's titles. It allowed that ALL descendants of Albert II, even those in the female line, were entitled to the title prince/ss of Belgium.

But this changed in 2015 with a new royal decree. The new royal decree makes it so only the children and grandchildren of the monarch are entitled to the title Prince/ss of Belgium. And grandchildren of the heir (so if Philippe was alive to be a great-grandfather, Elisabeth's grandchildren would be entitled). So any children born to any of Philippe's kids, even his daughters, will be entitled to Prince/ss of Belgium.

Prior to this decree, all descendants of Albert II would have had the title.

We have seen the change already with Prince Amadeo's daughter Anna-Astrid. Under the old rules, she would have been a Princess of Belgium. None of the grandchildren of Astrid or Laurent will be prince/ss.
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  #318  
Old 05-29-2018, 08:59 PM
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None of Princess Astrid’s or Prince Laurent’s grandchildren will be princes/ princesses of Belgium, but all grandchildren of King Philippe will, including Gabriel’s, Emmanuel’s and Eléonore’s children.
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  #319  
Old 05-29-2018, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by rootsroutes View Post
In the United Kingdom, the title of prince is limited to the sons and patrilineal grandsons of the monarch—except, of course, where HM has, essentially, granted the title early to the grandchildren of the Prince of Wales.

Is there a Belgian equivalent? Would the children of Prince Nicolas and Prince Aymeric be Princes and Princesses of Belgium, or just de Belgique / van België / von Belgien?

It appears that since 1831 there has not yet been a legitimate male-line great-grandson of a king of the Belgians whose grandfather did not become king. So precedent is no guide. Does anyone know the law?

Thanks!


The grandchildren of Princess Astrid and Prince Laurent are/will not be Princes or Princesses of Belgium. However, (at least) their legitimate male line grandchildren in the line of succession will be Princes and Princesses (but will not use the surname de Belgique / van België / von Belgien).


Here is the decree that has governed the title of Princess/Prince of Belgium since November 12, 2015.

In Dutch - Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad
In French - Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad


Translation:
Article 1. In the public and private acts relating to them, the Princes and the Princesses, children and grandchildren, born in direct descendance from the King as well as the Princes and the Princesses, children and grandchildren, born in direct descendance from the Crown Prince or the Crown Princess carry the title of Prince or of Princess of Belgium following their first name and, so far as they carry them, their family name and their dynastic title and ahead of the other titles to which their ancestry gives them the right. Their first name is preceded by the predicate His or Her Royal Highness.

Article 2. In the public and private acts relating to them, the Princes and the Princesses, children and grandchildren, born in direct descendance from His Majesty King Albert II carry the title of Prince or of Princess of Belgium following their first name, and, so far as they carry them, their family name and their dynastic title and ahead of the other titles to which their ancestry gives them the right. Their first name is preceded by the predicate His or Her Royal Highness.

Article 3. The Princes and the Princesses who already carry the title of Prince or of Princess of Belgium pursuant to the Royal Decree of 14 March 1891 qualifying the Princes and Princesses born in direct male descendance from His late Majesty Leopold I to be Princes and Princesses of Belgium retain this title following their first name and, so far as they carry it, their family name and before the other titles to which their ancestry gives them the right. Their first name is preceded by the predicate His or Her Royal Highness.

Article 4. The Princes and Princesses, born in direct descendance from His Majesty Leopold, George, Christian, Frederick of Saxe-Coburg, who are not covered by Articles 1 to 3, carry following their first name and, so far as they carry it, their family name, the titles to which their ancestry gives them the right.

As you can see:

a) Articles 1 through 3 establish that the following are automatically Princes(ses) of Belgium:
Princes and Princesses born as children or grandchildren of the King or Crown Prince(ss)
Princes and Princesses born as children or grandchildren of King Albert II
Princes and Princesses who were Princes and Princesses of Belgium under the rules of the royal decree of 1891 (which was in effect until December 15, 1991)
Thus, none of Astrid's and Laurent's grandchildren will be Princes(ses) of Belgium if neither Astrid nor Laurent succeeds as King/Queen or Crown Prince/ss.


b) Article 4 establishes that "Princes and Princesses" who are not covered by Articles 1-3, but are born as direct descendants of King Leopold I, still carry "the titles to which their ancestry gives them the right". The implication is that some or all of King Leopold I's descendants who are not Princes and Princesses of Belgium will continue to be Princes and Princesses and will carry other ancestral titles.

The Palace has made public that the only grandchild of Astrid (in male line) is officially known as Princess Anna Astrid. On her birth certificate, she was also registered as a Princess, with the ancestral title Archduchess of Austria-Este.

- Le Soir quoted the exact words of her birth certificate: She was registered in the civil registry as Princess Anna Astrid Marie Archduchess of Austria-Este.
"A la rubrique « nom et prénoms », son acte de naissance porte en effet, comme nous avons pu le voir : « Son Altesse Impériale et Royale la Princesse Anna Astrid Marie Archiduchesse d'Autriche-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine) »."

"In the column 'surname and given names', her birth certificate uses, as a matter of fact, as we were able to see it: 'Her Imperial and Royal Highness Princess Anna Astrid Marie Archduchess of Austria-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)'."

http://plus.lesoir.be/53935/article/...us-de-belgique


- Letters from the household of Princess Astrid (one in English is pictured in the photograph here) styled her granddaughter as Princess Anna Astrid.
"Their Royal Highnesses Princess Astrid, Prince Lorenz, Prince Amedeo and Princess Elisabetta thank you for the kind wishes you have sent on the occasion of the first birthday of our little sunshine Princess Anna Astrid.

Jan Matthysen
Ambassador (ret.)
Advisor to Princess Astrid"

- A palace spokesman confirmed that she would enjoy the title of princess.
"The royal family’s newest member will enjoy the title of princess – but, for dynastic reasons, she will not be a Princess of Belgium, the palace spokesman confirms to PEOPLE.

“It’s entirely possible that she may assume other titles in due course,” according to the spokesman, who confirms that the young family will live in Brussels."

Princess Anna Astrid: Brussels Prince Amedeo and Elisabetta Welcome Baby | PEOPLE.com

- The Palace communicated that she was "Princess Anna Astrid" to Le Carnet Mondain, the yearbook of noble and distinguished Belgian families.
"Par contre, la petite Anna Astrid n'a ni titre ni nom dans « Le carnet mondain », étant simplement renseigné comme « la princesse Anna Astrid » . Preuve de l'existence d'un royal problème ? Sachant, comme le précise le volumineux ouvrage mondain, que « les informations concernant la famille royale de belgique sont reproduites tellse qu'elles nous sont communiquées par le Palais »."

"In contrast, the small Anna Astrid has neither title nor surname in "Le carnet mondain", being filled out as "the princess Anna Astrid". Proof of the existence of a royal problem? Knowing the bulky work specifies that "information concerning the royal family of Belgium is reproduced from that which was communicated to us by the Palace"."

http://plus.lesoir.be/92478/article/...e-saxe-cobourg

- The Palace communicated the same information to Place Royale. (Place Royale uses the term "Officiel" to describe information given from the Palace.)
"OFFICIEL Le bébé du Prince et de la Princesse Amedeo de Belgique est la Princesse Anna Astrid @MonarchieBe"

"OFFICIAL The baby of Prince and Princess Amedeo of Belgium is Princess Anna Astrid @MonarchieBe

http://twitter.com/RTLPlaceRoyale/st...64995834245120
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  #320  
Old 07-25-2018, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
I meant this thread, where sources regarding the Belgian royal family's titles were discussed (and where we can appropriately continue this discussion).

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...ml#post2071524
http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...ml#post2071594




The article is clearly incorrect, as it claims Amedeo continued to be HI&RH rather than HRH after 1991 (which is refuted by the official documents you provided in the above thread, and the website of the Belgian royal family) and claims he (and his daughter) was not born a Prince/ss (refuted by their birth certificates, quoted in the thread).

THe "correct" part of the article I was alluding to is that he was not a Prince of Belgium until December 1991, which is what I equated to him not having any Belgian title when he was born.


Whether he was an HI&RH and a prince from birth is quite frankly debatable. As I said, I am almost sure that is how Astrid and Lorenz registered him, i.e. "HI&RH Prince [...]". If it is on his birth certificate, does it mean though that those titles/styles were legally recognized in Belgium ? Honestly, I am not sure.



Note that Amedeo, in addition to not being a Prince of Belgium, was not a "prince" either in any sense under the 1891 (?) royal decree then in force, as he was not a descendant of King Leopold I in male line and was not in the line of succession. Furthermore, the reference to Astrid's marriage being consented to , which surprisingly is actually in the Belgian constitution, doesn't cite Lorenz as HI&RH, but only as "Archduke of Austria-Este". And the website of the Royal House, I think, uses only HRH, which he is indeed after he was made a Prince of Belgium in his own right.


It is funny that people concentrate their fire on Laurent, but this HI&RH business shows that Astrid and Lorenz are the ones who actually have a somewhat inflated sense of entitlement, at least IMHO.
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