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  #261  
Old 02-06-2018, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
The concept of "direct descendant" is not so hard to grasp. It means simply that someone is a child, grandchild, great-grandchild , great-great-grandchild, etc. of someone else, as opposed to a nephew/niece, or grandnephew/grandniece for example. The only lingering doubt is if "direct descendance" can also be claimed in maternal line, or if it applies in paternal line only. As I wrote before, I understand the wording in the royal decrees of 1991 and 2015 is meant to signify cognatic direct descendance, as opposed to male-line direct descendance.
No, it isn't difficult to grasp that concept. What is hard for me to grasp instead is the practicality of having dozens and dozens of princes/princesses (yes, I got they will be rather different from those in the main line) in the future who won't be close to the throne. I like the way the british royal family deals with this business: the farther from the throne, the lesser your title...
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  #262  
Old 02-06-2018, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
The concept of "direct descendant" is not so hard to grasp. It means simply that someone is a child, grandchild, great-grandchild , great-great-grandchild, etc. of someone else, as opposed to a nephew/niece, or grandnephew/grandniece for example. [...]
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
[...]

It is also clear to me that "descendance en ligne directe" in those decrees is meant to be descendance both in paternal and maternal line. Otherwise, Art.1 of the 1991 royal decree would not apply to Princess Astrid's children and they would not be Princes/Princesses of Belgium. If the legislator had the intention to constrain the meaning of "descendance directe" to paternal line, then he would have written instead "descendance masculine et directe" as was done explicitly in the royal decree of 1891. The fact that "masculine" was explicitly dropped in the royal decrees of 1991 and 2015 seems intentional to me.
I find those to be very sound points. Indeed, if "direct descendants" (or "Princes and Princesses") meant the male-line direct descendants only, then Princess Astrid's children would not be Princes/ses of Belgium under the 1991 (or the 2015) royal decree.

Quote:
Article 1. In the public and private acts relating to them, the Princes and the Princesses born in descendance in direct line from H.R.H. Prince Albert, Felix, Humbert, Theodore, Christian, Eugene, Marie, Prince of Liege, Prince of Belgium, will be referred to as Princes or Princesses of Belgium, following their first names.
Moreover, while there is lingering doubt if Article 4 of the 2015 decree is applicable to a princess's child, there is no doubt that it is applicable to a prince's child, given that it has been applied to Amedeo's daughter.

I wish to underline that thus far all the reliable sources - I have quoted them here, the birth certificate included - state that the child's primary title is Princess Anna Astrid. As yet, no reliable sources have disputed the birth certificate or the information provided by the Palace.
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  #263  
Old 02-06-2018, 03:15 PM
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I do not contest the birth certificate but Belgium is not exactly known for it's accuratesse. The marriage of Anna-Astrid's own parents comes to mind. The Royal Court seemed taken by surprise by press questions if Prince Amedeo did request permission or not. Also the titulature of Elisabetta remained foggy. It was as if they were unprepared amateurs. When you simply look at the four articles it remains a mystery where that "princess first-name" thing comes from:

- article 1 covers the children and grandchildren of the King and the Duchess of Brabant: not applicable to Anna-Astrid
- article 2 covers the children and grandchildren of King Albert II: not applicable to Anna-Astrid
- article 3 covers the ones already holding the title Prince (Princess) of Belgium: not applicable to Anna-Astrid
- article 4 covers the descendants in direct lineage to Leopold I: not applicable to Astrid she is a granddaughter to a descendant of Leopold)

It almost looks like the title "prinses Anna-Astrid" is the result of a discutable interpretation of Article 4 (or more likely, seeing the vaudeville around the marriage) just sloppy amateurism of the Household.

In Dutch - about the fact that Amedeo retroactively requested permission, six months áfter his marriage, and that this was given, with Government and Parliament discutably keeping themselves dumb and dumber about the legal infringements to spare embarrassment to the palace:
http://m.knack.be/nieuws/belgie/amed...on-665243.html
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  #264  
Old 02-06-2018, 04:37 PM
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I second Duc_et_Pair. The Belgium court has clearly shown that they don't know what they are doing.

My understanding was that indeed in 1991 was decided to make all descendants princes and princess of Belgium. At that point they were a little worried about Laurent becoming the future king as his brother didn't show any desire to marry while Astrid had children that could secure the throne if necessary. Clearly, they didn't think it through as nobody would want an uncountable number of princes and princesses of Belgium in the next decades.

Therefore, in 2015, this was reversed by reserving the title of prince(ss) of Belgium to children and grandchildren of the king or heir. For the great-grandchildren of the king this means that they rely on the title and name that their lineage entitles them to, which is by their father and not including the prince(ss) of Belgium title, unless their mother would have a title or name with a special provision that it might be given to her descendants (which in Belgium seems to be the case for normal surnames but not for titles of nobility).
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  #265  
Old 02-06-2018, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I do not contest the birth certificate but Belgium is not exactly known for it's accuratesse. The marriage of Anna-Astrid's own parents comes to mind. The Royal Court seemed taken by surprise by press questions if Prince Amedeo did request permission or not. Also the titulature of Elisabetta remained foggy.
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
I second Duc_et_Pair. The Belgium court has clearly shown that they don't know what they are doing.
Yes, the Royal Family has had moments of unpreparedness and errancies, such as embarrassingly forgetting the permission for Prince Amedeo's marriage. But with Anna Astrid's title of Princess, they have recurrently given the identical information, without any variances, and so there is a clear decision.

More importantly, the birth certificate designating her "Princess" is legal documentation issued by the municipal registry, not the royal court.

Also considering that there are no reliable sources disputing the municipal registration or the information from the Palace, I see no basis for suspecting that King Philippe's intentions were not followed.


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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
When you simply look at the four articles it remains a mystery where that "princess first-name" thing comes from:
[...]
- article 4 covers the descendants in direct lineage to Leopold I: not applicable to Astrid she is a granddaughter to a descendant of Leopold)
But Astrid and Anna Astrid are descendants in direct lineage to Leopold I. Princess Anna Astrid's father Prince Amedeo of Belgium is the son of Princess Astrid of Belgium, daughter of King Albert II of Belgium, son of King Leopold III of Belgium, son of King Albert I of Belgium, son of the Count of Flanders, son of King Leopold I of Belgium.


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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
For the great-grandchildren of the king this means that they rely on the title and name that their lineage entitles them to, which is by their father and not including the prince(ss) of Belgium title,
Yes, Anna Astrid relies on the titles and surname of her father, minus the "Prince of Belgium" title.

Prince Amedeo, Prince of Belgium, Archduke of Austria-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)
Princess Anna Astrid, Archduchess of Austria-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)
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  #266  
Old 02-06-2018, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Marchesina View Post
Sure they are decreasing the number of Princes/Princesses of Belgium, but giving children from a collateral branch the same title as the main branch is rather messy, I think you all can agree on that. If it is true that the family has started using the German family name again (and therefore the titles as well), than the collateral branches should use lower titles (ducal ones for instance), the way they do in The Netherlands, for example, while still being part of the extended royal family.
I wouldn't present the Dutch as the best example in this case. It has been very messy... with different decisions in each generation.

We seem to have had the difference between the 'prince(ss) of the Netherlands' title that was reserved for children of the monarch and heir; and 'prince(ss) of Oranje-Nassau' for all others but somehow the Dutch parliament decided that prince Constantijn's children couldn't receive the 'prince of Oranje-Nassau' title. If the problem was that he had received his title through his mother not his father, his children should only have been 'jonkheer/vrouw van Amsberg', creating a new noble house (twice, both for Constantijn and a few years later for Friso) with the name 'van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg' of which the first part is 'count' and the second part is 'jonkheer' was very illogical in my opinion. If that wasn't the issue, his children should have been prince(sse)s of Oranje-Nassau, just like his cousin's children are prince(sse)s of Bourbon-Parma.
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  #267  
Old 02-06-2018, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Also considering that there are no reliable sources disputing the municipal registration or the information from the Palace, I see no basis for suspecting that King Philippe's intentions were not followed.
Is it really just the king's intentions that are important? Wouldn't this be dependent on law? Which is at the very least multi-interpretable.

Quote:
Yes, Anna Astrid relies on the titles and surname of her father, minus the "Prince of Belgium" title.

Prince Amedeo, Prince of Belgium, Archduke of Austria-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)
Princess Anna Astrid, Archduchess of Austria-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)
No, she doesn't in my point of view (but I know you think differently). The princess part apparently relies on his 'prince of Belgium' title, so, no she doesn't rely on her father's titles minus the prince of Belgium part for her titles... He is a prince of Belgium, that's why he is a prince. She apparently is called princess because her father is a prince of Belgium, which she shouldn't be (as that is the part of his title that he cannot pass on to his children). Before he became a prince of Belgium he was an archduke first and foremost (and only a prince of Hungary as a secondary title), so she should be an archduke.

Furthermore, do we already know for sure how her mother Elisabetta is to be addressed?
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  #268  
Old 02-06-2018, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Is it really just the king's intentions that are important? Wouldn't this be dependent on law? Which is at the very least multi-interpretable.
My previous comment was addressed to the suggestion that the "Princess" title in the birth certificate and announcements was sloppy writing instead of being the intention of the King and his Royal Decree. It is a different question whether King Philippe's intentions were dependent on law.


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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
No, she doesn't in my point of view (but I know you think differently). The princess part apparently relies on his 'prince of Belgium' title, so, no she doesn't rely on her father's titles minus the prince of Belgium part for her titles... He is a prince of Belgium, that's why he is a prince.
I do think that it is clear from the decrees and Amedeo's birth certificate that the prince title does not rely on the prince of Belgium title.

Have you read posts #199 and #222? I think they address your thoughts.

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...ml#post2070779
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
It is a reversion to pre-1891 rules.

Before the Royal Decree in 1891, all of the royal Belgian princes and princesses were without a designation.

The report accompanying the Royal Decree stated that the princes and princesses were not called "of Belgium" in Belgium, unlike in foreign countries, where they were referred to by the name "of Belgium".

When Prince Baudouin died in January 1891, there was discomfort with his death certificate because there was no "of Belgium" or characteristically Belgian title on it (while his Saxony titles were recognized on Belgian documents).

The Royal Decree of March 14, 1891 resolved the problem by granting the title of Prince/Princess of Belgium to all of the Princes and Princesses who were in direct male line descent from King Léopold I.

Royal Titles in Belgium - Titres Royaux en Belgique
http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...ml#post2071217

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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I guess that depends on how you interpret Art. 4 of the 2015 royal decree. Just to provide some context, let us examine first what the previous royal decrees said.

1) Royal Decree of 18/3/1891

"Art. 1er. Dans les actes publics et privés qui les concernent, les princes et les princesses issus de la descendance masculine et directe de feu Sa Majesté Léopold Ier, seront qualifiés de princes et princesses de Belgique, à la suite de leurs prénoms et avant la mention de leur titre originaire de duc ou duchesse de Saxe.
Les princesses unies par mariage aux princes de notre maison royale seront qualifiées de la même manière à la suite des noms et titres qui leur sont propres
"

2) Royal Decree of 2/12/1991

"Art. 1er. Dans les actes publics et privés qui les concernent, les Princes et les Princesses issus de la descendance, en ligne directe de S.A.R. le Prince Albert,(...), Prince de Liège (sic), Prince de Belgique, seront qualifiés Princes et Princesses de Belgique, à la suite de leurs prénoms.
Art. 2. L'arrêté Royal du 18/3/1891, qualifiant Princes et Princesses de Belgique les Princes et Princesses issus de la descendance de feu Sa Majesté Léopold Ier, est abrogé."


3) Royal Decree of 12/11/2015

"Article 1er. Dans les actes publics et privés qui les concernent, les Princes et les Princesses, enfants et petits-enfants, issus de la descendance directe du Roi ainsi que les Princes et les Princesses, enfants et petits-enfants, issus de la descendance directe du Prince héritier ou de la Princesse héritière portent le titre de Prince ou de Princesse de Belgique à la suite de leur prénom et, pour autant qu'ils les portent, de leur nom de famille et de leur titre dynastique et avant les autres titres qui leur reviennent de droit par leur ascendance. Leur prénom est précédé par le prédicat Son Altesse Royale.

Art. 2. Dans les actes publics et privés qui les concernent, les Princes et les Princesses, enfants et petits-enfants, issus de la descendance directe de Sa Majesté le Roi Albert II portent le titre de Prince ou de Princesse de Belgique à la suite de leur prénom et, pour autant qu'ils les portent, de leur nom de famille et de leur titre dynastique et avant les autres titres qui leur reviennent de droit par leur ascendance. Leur prénom est précédé par le prédicat Son Altesse Royale.

Art. 3. Les Princes et les Princesses qui portent le titre de Prince ou de Princesse de Belgique en vertu de l'arrêté royal du 14 mars 1891 qualifiant Princes et Princesses de Belgique les Princes et Princesses issus de la descendance masculine et directe de feu Sa Majesté Léopold Ier gardent ce titre à la suite de leur prénom et, pour autant qu'ils le portent, de leur nom de famille et avant les autres titres qui leur reviennent de droit par leur ascendance. Leur prénom est précédé par le prédicat Son Altesse Royale.

Art. 4. Les Princes et Princesses, issus de la descendance directe de Sa Majesté Léopold, Georges, Chrétien, Frédéric de Saxe-Cobourg qui ne sont pas visés par les articles 1er à 3, portent à la suite de leur prénom et, pour autant qu'ils le portent, de leur nom de famille, les titres qui leur reviennent de droit par leur ascendance."

It appears to me that the only reasonable interpretation for the the words "les princes et princesses, issus de la descendance [...]" in all those documents is to take "prince" and "princess" as synonyms of "dynasts", which would be consistent with both French and Germanic tradition. The separate title of "Prince/Princess of Belgium", which implies membership of the royal family and the style of HRH (cf. Arts 1-3 of the 2015 royal decree) applies, on the other hand, only to a more restricted class of persons.

It is also clear to me that "descendance en ligne directe" in those decrees is meant to be descendance both in paternal and maternal line. Otherwise, Art.1 of the 1991 royal decree would not apply to Princess Astrid's children and they would not be Princes/Princesses of Belgium. If the legislator had the intention to constrain the meaning of "descendance directe" to paternal line, then he would have written instead "descendance masculine et directe" as was done explicitly in the royal decree of 1891. The fact that "masculine" was explicitly dropped in the royal decrees of 1991 and 2015 seems intentional to me.
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Furthermore, do we already know for sure how her mother Elisabetta is to be addressed?
The royal court has styled her as Princess Amedeo of Belgium and as Princess Elisabetta (never Princess Elisabetta of Belgium).

http://www.facebook.com/BeMonarchie/...84077428522557
koninklijkepost.punt.nl
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  #269  
Old 02-06-2018, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
My previous comment was addressed to the suggestion that the "Princess" title in the birth certificate and announcements was sloppy writing instead of being the intention of the King and his Royal Decree. It is a different question whether King Philippe's intentions were dependent on law.
Thanks for the clarification.

Quote:
I do think that it is clear from the decrees and Amedeo's birth certificate that the prince title does not rely on the prince of Belgium title.
It was you who said that her titles derived from her father's titles minus the prince of Belgium title. So, I am glad to see that you agree with me on this issue. The question remains where the 'princess designation' comes from.

Quote:
Have you read posts #199 and #222? I think they address your thoughts.

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...ml#post2070779

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...ml#post2071217
Yes, of course. I just question that interpretation - but it's always interesting to read others' interpretations. In short, I agree that the intend is that male and female lineage should be treated the same. So, it is clear that the prince(ss) of Belgium title is to be passed on in female lineage as well. However, since the last decree for non-(grand)children (such as great-grandchildren) this seems irrelevant as the title has been restricted and they rely on their father's (and mother's?) titles (except for the prince of Belgium title).

So, the interesting question would be, which title it is that they are entitled to based on their royal ascendance, as it is NOT the 'prince(ss) of Belgium title... And a royal decree cannot govern other titles (such as the archduke/duchess of Austria-Este title). Some of you seem to suggest that it is the title 'prince or princess' without a designation but that is one I find really hard to phantom. Could it be the S-C(-G) title they are talking about? As the name of king Leopold I is also included as 'of Saxe-Coburg'? So, did any of king Leopold I's descendants already start using a(nother) title based on this royal decree?

I am not trying to say that my interpretation is the right one (I'd say it is still evolving), just would like all of us to acknowledge that it is multi-interpretable and anyone of us could be right or wrong. As we've seen, interpretation isn't straight-forward.

Quote:
The royal court has styled her as Princess Amedeo of Belgium and as Princess Elisabetta (never Princess Elisabetta of Belgium).

http://www.facebook.com/BeMonarchie/...84077428522557
koninklijkepost.punt.nl
So, as I seemed to remember, they haven't been consistent in the way they address her. Early on in the marriage they seemed to actively avoid addressing her with a title.

It is about time that they clearly communicate how they will go about the titles of the wifes of the grand-child princes and the great-grandchildren...
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  #270  
Old 02-07-2018, 09:58 AM
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What I meant to stress was that the facts of her registration on her birth certificate as "Princess Anna Astrid Marie", and the Royal Court consistently addressing her as "Princess Anna Astrid", are facts on the record rather than mere speculation.

The logic or illogic of the decisions made by the Brussels registrar and the Royal Court, and if the wording of the royal decree accurately provided for the king's apparent intent or not, are open to interpretation, absolutely.

I have tried to abstain from interpreting the vague portions of the decree. So, it remains unclear to me if the intent is to treat paternal and maternal lineage the same, specifically Amedeo's children opposite his sisters' hypothetical children.



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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Some of you seem to suggest that it is the title 'prince or princess' without a designation but that is one I find really hard to phantom.
As the entire royal family used the title of prince or princess without a designation until 1891, likewise Amedeo until 1991, I think it makes sense that a great-grandchild without "of Belgium" has reverted to the pre-1891/1991 title.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
It was you who said that her titles derived from her father's titles minus the prince of Belgium title. So, I am glad to see that you agree with me on this issue. The question remains where the 'princess designation' comes from.
I am slightly confused by your comment. When the prince designation does not rely on the prince of Belgium title, the prince designation is capable of being passed on to his daughter without the prince of Belgium title, surely?


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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Could it be the S-C(-G) title they are talking about? As the name of king Leopold I is also included as 'of Saxe-Coburg'? So, did any of king Leopold I's descendants already start using a(nother) title based on this royal decree?
The Palace confirmed to Le Soir that "de andere titels die hun rechtens hun ascendentie toekomen" in the decree is applicable to the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha titles. However, the decree states that those titles are used after the name, and so they are thereby separate from the "prince/ss without a designation" title, which is used before the name.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eya View Post
[...] Indeed, the discovery of the social book of 2017, all the descendants of King Albert I recovered the title, except the children of the princess, who take the name of their father, the Archduke of Austria-Este. [...]

La famille royale s'appelle à nouveau Saxe-Cobourg: pourquoi est-ce bientôt la fin des "de Belgique"? - RTL Info
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
The article is about the yearbook Le Carnet Mondain. Last week Le Soir stated that in the current edition, all of the royal descendants of King Leopold I have gained the titles of "Duchess/Duke of Saxony, Prince/ss of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha" - exempting Princess Astrid's descendants and the late King Albert I (the king who renounced the German titles in 1921).
Their wives and husbands do not carry these titles.
The daughter of Prince Amedeo of Belgium is styled "Princess Anna Astrid" with no surname or further titles.
Le Carnet Mondain states that this information was presented to them by the royal palace.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
The spokesperson of the royal palace confirmed to Le Soir that the Saxony titles are covered by the expression "the titles which their ancestry gives them the right to", appearing in articles 1-4 of the royal decree of 2015.
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  #271  
Old 02-07-2018, 11:34 AM
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To add more confusion to an already confusing thread, I looked up how Prince Lorenz was addressed in Belgian documents before he was made a Prince of Belgium. The goal of this exercise was to figure out how his Austrian titles appeared in Belgian documents.

First, see below an excerpt from the Transition Provisions (Title IX) of the constitution of Belgium itself. The following article has to do with the constitutional amendment that introduced equal primogeniture in the succession to the throne. Since Princess Astrid entered the line of succession after she had already got married to Lorenz, a special provision had to be inserted in the constitution to give retroactive consent to her marriage so that she would not lose her place in the line of succession under the terms of Art. 85.

Quote:
I. Les dispositions de l’article 85 seront pour la première fois d’application
à la descendance de S.A.R. le Prince Albert, Félix, Humbert, Théodore, Christian,
Eugène, Marie, Prince de Liège, Prince de Belgique, étant entendu que le mariage
de S.A.R. la Princesse Astrid, Joséphine, Charlotte, Fabrizia, Elisabeth, Paola, Marie,
Princesse de Belgique, avec Lorenz, Archiduc d’Autriche-Este, est censé avoir
obtenu le consentement visé à l’article 85, alinéa 2.
Note that Astrid, as a Princess of Belgium, is referred to by the style HRH (S.A.R. in French), but Lorenz is not styled HI&RH.

Next, see an excerpt of King Albert II's royal decree of 10/11/1995 that created Lorenz a Prince of Belgium in his own right. Again, the style HI&RH is not used to refer to Lorenz, with the caveat, however, that, in this particular case, Astrid is not styled HRH either.

Quote:
Art. 1er. Dans les actes publics et privés qui le concernent, l'Archiduc Lorenz – Otto – Carl - Amedeus d'Autriche-Este, époux de Notre Fille bien-aimée, la Princesse Astrid – Joséphine – Charlotte – Fabrizia – Elisabeth – Paola - Marie, Princesse de Belgique, sera qualifié Prince de Belgique à la suite des noms et titres qui lui sont propres.
Note also that, in the agenda at the website of the Royal House, Astrid and Lorenz are always styled Their Royal Highnesses (which is their proper style in Belgium), but never Their Imperial & Royal Highnesses. For example:

Quote:
Leurs Altesses Royales la Princesse Elisabeth, le Prince Gabriel, le Prince Emmanuel et la Princesse Eléonore, Leurs Altesses Royales la Princesse Astrid et le Prince Lorenz, Leurs Altesses Royales la Princesse Claire, le Prince Nicolas et le Prince Aymeric assistent également au concert.
Quote:
Leurs Altesses Royales la Princesse Astrid et le Prince Lorenz assistent aux funérailles de S.M. le Roi Michael I de Roumanie. La cérémonie se déroule à Bucarest.
Overall, I don't think there is a legal basis to use the style HI&RH in Anna-Astrid's birth certificate as it was done, probably at the insistence of her parents or, more likely, of her grandparents. She can still be called a princess under Art.4 of the 2015 royal decree as a descendant in direct line of King Léopold I, but she cannot be called a princess of Belgium (which she correctly was not in her birth certificate) or be styled HRH. Her Austrian style of HI&RH, like her father's before here, is probably not recognized in Belgium.
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  #272  
Old 02-07-2018, 12:03 PM
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Considering Anna-Astrid a "descendant in direct lineage" of Léopold I is really a stretch too far. Note that Amedeo is born a Habsburg (yes, created Prince of Belgium later in life). Astrid married into the House of Austria-Este and her children are Archdukes and -duchesses of Austria-Este because of their paternal descent.

The complete nobiliary system in Belgium works on paternal descendance. Mathilde, Paola, Fabiola, etc.: all aristocrat ladies because their father, their grandfather, their great-grandfather, etc. did procreate the noble dynasty.

Anna-Astrid is the granddaughter of a Belgian Princess. There are two generations between her and a direct lineage of father on son starting with Léopold I. If we consider her "a direct descendant", boy... where is the end? The many, many descendants of Joséphine-Charlotte in Luxembourg come to mind. Are they also "direct descendants"? No. Of course not. They are direct descendants of the Kings of France, of Spain and of the Dukes of Parma. They are indirect descendants of Leopold I, in the usual understanding of that concept in terms of nobility and royalty.
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  #273  
Old 02-07-2018, 03:47 PM
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But if one considers descendants not in the paternal lineage to be "indirect descendants", then how does one explain that Amedeo is a Prince of Belgium? As Mbruno noted, the royal decree of 1991 made only the princes(ses) in direct lineage of the future Albert II "Princes or Princesses of Belgium".

Further, Article 1 of the royal decree of 2015 reserves the inherited "Prince/ss of Belgium" title to princes(ses) in direct lineage of the King and of the Crown Princess. Would you say then that the children of Princess Eléonore will not be Prince/ss of Belgium?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
To add more confusion to an already confusing thread, I looked up how Prince Lorenz was addressed in Belgian documents before he was made a Prince of Belgium. The goal of this exercise was to figure out how his Austrian titles appeared in Belgian documents.

First, see below an excerpt from the Transition Provisions (Title IX) of the constitution of Belgium itself. The following article has to do with the constitutional amendment that introduced equal primogeniture in the succession to the throne. Since Princess Astrid entered the line of succession after she had already got married to Lorenz, a special provision had to be inserted in the constitution to give retroactive consent to her marriage so that she would not lose her place in the line of succession under the terms of Art. 85.

Quote:
I. Les dispositions de l’article 85 seront pour la première fois d’application
à la descendance de S.A.R. le Prince Albert, Félix, Humbert, Théodore, Christian,
Eugène, Marie, Prince de Liège, Prince de Belgique, étant entendu que le mariage
de S.A.R. la Princesse Astrid, Joséphine, Charlotte, Fabrizia, Elisabeth, Paola, Marie,
Princesse de Belgique, avec Lorenz, Archiduc d’Autriche-Este, est censé avoir
obtenu le consentement visé à l’article 85, alinéa 2.
Note that Astrid, as a Princess of Belgium, is referred to by the style HRH (S.A.R. in French), but Lorenz is not styled HI&RH.

Next, see an excerpt of King Albert II's royal decree of 10/11/1995 that created Lorenz a Prince of Belgium in his own right. Again, the style HI&RH is not used to refer to Lorenz, with the caveat, however, that, in this particular case, Astrid is not styled HRH either.

Quote:
Art. 1er. Dans les actes publics et privés qui le concernent, l'Archiduc Lorenz – Otto – Carl - Amedeus d'Autriche-Este, époux de Notre Fille bien-aimée, la Princesse Astrid – Joséphine – Charlotte – Fabrizia – Elisabeth – Paola - Marie, Princesse de Belgique, sera qualifié Prince de Belgique à la suite des noms et titres qui lui sont propres.
Note also that, in the agenda at the website of the Royal House, Astrid and Lorenz are always styled Their Royal Highnesses (which is their proper style in Belgium), but never Their Imperial & Royal Highnesses. For example:

Quote:
Leurs Altesses Royales la Princesse Elisabeth, le Prince Gabriel, le Prince Emmanuel et la Princesse Eléonore, Leurs Altesses Royales la Princesse Astrid et le Prince Lorenz, Leurs Altesses Royales la Princesse Claire, le Prince Nicolas et le Prince Aymeric assistent également au concert.
Quote:
Leurs Altesses Royales la Princesse Astrid et le Prince Lorenz assistent aux funérailles de S.M. le Roi Michael I de Roumanie. La cérémonie se déroule à Bucarest.
Overall, I don't think there is a legal basis to use the style HI&RH in Anna-Astrid's birth certificate as it was done, probably at the insistence of her parents or, more likely, of her grandparents. She can still be called a princess under Art.4 of the 2015 royal decree as a descendant in direct line of King Léopold I, but she cannot be called a princess of Belgium (which she correctly was not in her birth certificate) or be styled HRH. Her Austrian style of HI&RH, like her father's before here, is probably not recognized in Belgium.


Thank you very much for the insights, Mbruno.

It seems that before Lorenz and his children were made Princes/ses of Belgium, the style HI&RH did appear in the municipal registry. The Le Soir article which I posted stated that the name on Amedeo's Belgian birth certificate was "[His] Imperial and Royal Highness, Prince Amedeo Maria Josef Carl Pierre Philippe Paola Marco d'Aviano Archduke of Austria-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)". I also have read somewhere that Lorenz had the name "His Imperial and Royal Highness Archduke Lorenz (…) of Austria-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)" in his Belgian marriage certificate, although in that case, I do not know what the source was.

Conversely, in all documents issued after they were created Princes of Belgium, the style HI&RH was dropped, as shown in your final examples. Lorenz is referred to as "H.R.H. Prince Lorenz of Belgium" in the State Gazette as well.
Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad
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  #274  
Old 02-10-2018, 03:03 PM
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So does the Princess Anna Astrid precedent suggest that Laurent's grandchildren will be Princes and Princesses although not "of Belgium"?
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  #275  
Old 02-10-2018, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizier View Post
So does the Princess Anna Astrid precedent suggest that Laurent's grandchildren will be Princes and Princesses although not "of Belgium"?
Probably. But in Laurent's case a title like prins van Saksen-Coburg en Gotha would be a "logic" one as Laurent is a male agnate of that House. In the case of Astrid we see that her granddaughter, born in the House of Austria-Este and entitled to her father's many, many titles, is styled as "prinses" (without futher designation). It simply lacks a clear reason.
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  #276  
Old 02-10-2018, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post


But if one considers descendants not in the paternal lineage to be "indirect descendants", then how does one explain that Amedeo is a Prince of Belgium? As Mbruno noted, the royal decree of 1991 made only the princes(ses) in direct lineage of the future Albert II "Princes or Princesses of Belgium".
He was MADE a prince of Belgium because he wasn't one based on his paternal lineage. So, Anna Astrid is a descendant from a prince of Belgium (namely her father) but not from Leopold I. If all of his descendants in female were to use their princely titles we should have seen quite an influx of princes and princesses (without specification) just after the decree was issued.

Quote:
Further, Article 1 of the royal decree of 2015 reserves the inherited "Prince/ss of Belgium" title to princes(ses) in direct lineage of the King and of the Crown Princess. Would you say then that the children of Princess Eléonore will not be Prince/ss of Belgium?
That's a new rule; and it seems to suggest that her children (but NOT her grandchildren) will be prince(sse)s of Belgium.


Quote:
Thank you very much for the insights, Mbruno.

It seems that before Lorenz and his children were made Princes/ses of Belgium, the style HI&RH did appear in the municipal registry. The Le Soir article which I posted stated that the name on Amedeo's Belgian birth certificate was "[His] Imperial and Royal Highness, Prince Amedeo Maria Josef Carl Pierre Philippe Paola Marco d'Aviano Archduke of Austria-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)". I also have read somewhere that Lorenz had the name "His Imperial and Royal Highness Archduke Lorenz (…) of Austria-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)" in his Belgian marriage certificate, although in that case, I do not know what the source was.

Conversely, in all documents issued after they were created Princes of Belgium, the style HI&RH was dropped, as shown in your final examples. Lorenz is referred to as "H.R.H. Prince Lorenz of Belgium" in the State Gazette as well.
Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad
So, Amedeo and Maria Laura were ALWAYS styled as princes and princesses in Belgium by the court? Even before they were created prince and princess of Belgium? Were they also considered (Imperial and/or Royal) Highnesses?
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  #277  
Old 02-10-2018, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
What I meant to stress was that the facts of her registration on her birth certificate as "Princess Anna Astrid Marie", and the Royal Court consistently addressing her as "Princess Anna Astrid", are facts on the record rather than mere speculation.
Yes, that point was clear. We mainly wonder whether there was a basis to do so, especially since the court doesn't always seem to get it right.

Quote:
The logic or illogic of the decisions made by the Brussels registrar and the Royal Court, and if the wording of the royal decree accurately provided for the king's apparent intent or not, are open to interpretation, absolutely.
Glad that we agree.

Quote:
I have tried to abstain from interpreting the vague portions of the decree. So, it remains unclear to me if the intent is to treat paternal and maternal lineage the same, specifically Amedeo's children opposite his sisters' hypothetical children.
Ok, nobody seems to know for sure

Quote:
As the entire royal family used the title of prince or princess without a designation until 1891, likewise Amedeo until 1991, I think it makes sense that a great-grandchild without "of Belgium" has reverted to the pre-1891/1991 title.
The 'pre 1991' portion was new to me; the situation before 1891 didn't seem that relevant as in my eyes the 'of Belgium' was implied, because of what else were they princes and princesses. And they were all considered part of the royal house of Belgium. That isn't the case any longer. Moreover, it was only applied to male line descendants, so they were all titled!

[quote]I am slightly confused by your comment. When the prince designation does not rely on the prince of Belgium title, the prince designation is capable of being passed on to his daughter without the prince of Belgium title, surely?
Now I understand your reasoning as you have stated that Amedeo was a prince even before he became a prince of Belgium, so in your eyes him being 'prince Amedeo' is independent of him being 'prince Amedeo of Belgium'. I still have a hard time wrapping my head around it.

Quote:
The Palace confirmed to Le Soir that "de andere titels die hun rechtens hun ascendentie toekomen" in the decree is applicable to the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha titles. However, the decree states that those titles are used after the name, and so they are thereby separate from the "prince/ss without a designation" title, which is used before the name.
So, can the 'prince(ss) without a designation' title also be passed on based on this article. If so, why didn't princess Esmeralda's children start calling themselves 'princess Alexandra Moncada' and 'prince Leopoldo Moncada'?
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  #278  
Old 02-10-2018, 04:52 PM
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I will respond to your comments in time.


In the interim, I would like to provide a translation of the major articles of the Royal Decrees of 1891, 1991, and 2015.


Royal Decree, March 14, 1891

Article 1. In the public and private acts relating to them, the princes and the princesses born in direct male descendance from the late His Majesty Leopold I will be referred to as princes and princesses of Belgium, following their first names and preceding the mention of their original title of duke or duchess of Saxony.

Royal Decree, December 2, 1991

Article 1. In the public and private acts relating to them, the Princes and the Princesses born in descendance in direct line from H.R.H. Prince Albert, Felix, Humbert, Theodore, Christian, Eugene, Marie, Prince of Liege, Prince of Belgium, will be referred to as Princes or Princesses of Belgium, following their first names.

Royal Decree, November 12, 2015

Article 1. In the public and private acts relating to them, the Princes and the Princesses, children and grandchildren, born in direct descendance from the King, as well as the Princes and the Princesses, children and grandchildren, born in direct descendance from the Crown Prince or the Crown Princess, carry the title of Prince or of Princess of Belgium following their first name, and their family name and their dynastic title so far as they carry them, and ahead of the other titles to which their ancestry gives them the right. Their first name is preceded by the predicate His or Her Royal Highness.

Article 2. In the public and private acts relating to them, the Princes and the Princesses, children and grandchildren, born in direct descendance from His Majesty King Albert II, carry the title of Prince or of Princess of Belgium following their first name, and their family name and their dynastic title so far as they carry them, and ahead of the other titles to which their ancestry gives them the right. Their first name is preceded by the predicate His or Her Royal Highness.

Article 3. The Princes and the Princesses who already carry the title of Prince or of Princess of Belgium pursuant to the Royal Decree of 14 March 1891 qualifying the Princes and Princesses born in direct male descendance from the late His Majesty Leopold I to be Princes and Princesses of Belgium, retain this title following their first name, and their family name so far as they carry it, and before the other titles to which their ancestry gives them the right. Their first name is preceded by the predicate His or Her Royal Highness.

Article 4. The Princes and Princesses born in direct descendance from His Majesty Leopold, George, Christian, Frederick of Saxe-Coburg, who are not covered by Articles 1 to 3, carry following their first name, and their family name so far as they carry it, the titles to which their ancestry gives them the right.


The royal decrees of 1891 and 1991
Royal Titles in Belgium - Titres Royaux en Belgique

The royal decree of 2015
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  #279  
Old 02-11-2018, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
He was MADE a prince of Belgium because he wasn't one based on his paternal lineage. [...]

The question was if descendants from a female line are regarded as "direct descendants" or as "indirect descendants". (Indirect descendants are not entitled to royal titles under any of the royal decrees.)


The Constitution speaks about direct descent from King Leopold I when it comes to succession to the throne.
Article 85
The constitutional powers of the King are hereditary through the direct, natural and legitimate descent from H.M. Leopold, George, Christian, Frederick of Saxe-Coburg, by order of primogeniture."

http://www.lachambre.be/kvvcr/pdf_se...GrondwetUK.pdf
Indirect descendants, adoptive descendants, and illegitimate descendants of King Leopold I are thereby excluded from the line of succession to the Belgian throne.

The future children of Princess Elisabeth of Belgium, Duchess of Brabant, will be descendants in maternal lineage from Leopold I. The children of her aunt, Astrid, are descendants in maternal lineage from Leopold I. Assuming descendants in maternal lineage are regarded as "indirect descendants", the Duchess of Brabant's future children and Princess Astrid's children should be excluded from the line of succession. Is that actually how the Constitution should be read?



The text of the royal decree of December 2, 1991 in Dutch is
Artikel 1. In de openbare en private akten die hen aanbelangen, dragen de Prinsen en de Prinsessen, geboren uit de nakomelingschap in rechte lijn van Z.K.H. Prins Albert, Felix, Humbert, Theodoor, Christiaan, Eugène, Marie, Prins van Luik, Prins van België, de titel van Prins of van Prinses van België. Die titel volgt op hun voornamen.
Art. 2. Het koninklijk besluit van 14 maart 1891, dat de titel van Prins en van Prinses van België verleent aan de Prinsen en Prinsessen geboren uit de mannelijke nakomelingschap in rechte lijn van Wijlen Zijne Majesteit Leopold I, wordt opgeheven.
Art. 3. Onze Eerste Minister en Onze Minister van Buitenlandse Zaken zijn, ieder wat hem betreft, belast met de uitvoering van dit besluit."
(Article 1. In the public and private acts relating to them, the Princes and the Princesses born in descendance in direct line from H.R.H. Prince Albert, Felix, Humbert, Theodoor, Christiaan, Eugène, Marie, Prince of Luik, Prince of Belgium, carry the title of Prince or of Princess of Belgium. That title follows their first names.)

No indirect descendants were made princes of Belgium with that decree, because it refers to no one but Albert's descendants "in direct line". Amedeo is a grandson of Albert in maternal lineage, so, if grandchildren in maternal lineage are regarded as "indirect descendants", what decree made Amedeo a prince of Belgium?


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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Yes, that point was clear. We mainly wonder whether there was a basis to do so, especially since the court doesn't always seem to get it right.
Thank you for clarifying. I will respond to your other points later on.
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  #280  
Old 02-11-2018, 10:29 AM
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This systematic is a prayer without end. All is pretty clear: the children and grandchildren of a King and a Crown Prince are Princes (Princesses) of Belgium. Ready. Crisp and crystalclear.

Anna-Astrid is no child or grandchild of a King or a Crown Prince. That she suddely is styled as "prinses" Anna-Astrid (without HRH and without designation) is the confusing thing. It is almost as if "prinses" is not seen as a title but as a predicaten, a form of adress: "Yes Princess, no of course not Princess".

It all looks so ill-thought. Anyway, we will see what happens with the children from other marriages in the royal family.
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