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  #21  
Old 10-01-2020, 03:17 PM
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I think it would be deeply unfair if she and her children joined the line of succession.
Alexander, Esmeralda and Marie-Christine were never on it and they were the children of a legitimate marriage of a King.
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  #22  
Old 10-01-2020, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by leidi View Post
I think it would be deeply unfair if she and her children joined the line of succession.
Alexander, Esmeralda and Marie-Christine were never on it and they were the children of a legitimate marriage of a King.
And Princess Anna Astrid and Prince Maximilian have never been HRH or "of Belgium", and they were descendants in legitimate line of a King.

Likewise for Alexandra and Leopoldo Moncada, who like Delphine's children are grandchildren of a King, but in legitimate line.

Again, in light of this ruling, I see no reason why Anna Astrid and Maximilian, or for that matter Alexandra and Leopoldo Moncada, should not enjoy the same title and predicate as HRH Princess Delphine of Belgium, HRH Princess Joséphine of Belgium and HRH Prince Oscar of Belgium.
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  #23  
Old 10-01-2020, 03:23 PM
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Delphine, what's next on your list?

Are there truely rules saying she must be invited to family gatherings or official events-
if they developped a sincere relationship ok, but she should not be enabled to force the family even more. But who knows, characters of that kind do not stop challenging or blackmailing.
I hope her partner and children do not feel neglected and ignored because if what she has been going on for years now and still counting...
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  #24  
Old 10-01-2020, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by leidi View Post
I think it would be deeply unfair if she and her children joined the line of succession.
Alexander, Esmeralda and Marie-Christine were never on it and they were the children of a legitimate marriage of a King.
I totally agree.
I don't know how the King is going to deal with all that.
Imagine the court says the palace has to give her an official role as a princess and Delphine attending family gatherings...so awkward...
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  #25  
Old 10-01-2020, 03:29 PM
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This is B.S. especially since King Leopold and Lillian's three children were not in the line of succession and treated like royal "after thoughts".

So much for her wanting just to be recognized as his daughter.

The truth always comes out in the end. Disappointing.

JMHO.
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  #26  
Old 10-01-2020, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by cathy50 View Post
Delphine, what's next on your list?

Are there truely rules saying she must be invited to family gatherings or official events-
if they developped a sincere relationship ok, but she should not be enabled to force the family even more. But who knows, characters of that kind do not stop challenging or blackmailing.
I hope her partner and children do not feel neglected and ignored because if what she has been going on for years now and still counting...
Precissly, will she threaten her brother to bring him to court too if he, let's say, doesn't invite her to a family event?
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  #27  
Old 10-01-2020, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
I'm not sure how this is a victory for illegitimate children, given that (unless the early reports are incomplete) they continue to be barred by law from inheriting titles.
It's at least a first-round victory and maybe, just maybe, this can provide for a precedent and can lead to more illegitimate children leading lawsuits, winning those and, ultimately, forcing politics (hopefully not only in Belgium) to reform.

Quote:
And given that all women are barred by law from transmitting their titles to their children (whether legitimate or illegitimate), why would your description of "treated like dirt" not apply to the children of noble women?
That's another unfairness and I do think the general exclusion of women is as outrageous as the treatment of illegitimate children, however, this is about a specific case and I think discussing other issues would clog the thread.

best wishes Michiru
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  #28  
Old 10-01-2020, 03:39 PM
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Unbelievable!
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  #29  
Old 10-01-2020, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by acdc1 View Post
So this means she’s going to join the family at every official function, have public/royal duties, and be a full-fledged member of the family? Did she have a relationship with her half-siblings and father at all? That will be so incredibly awkward, I’m rather shocked by this ruling.
No, why would she? Her half-aunts normally don't join the family either while also being princesses of Belgium.
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  #30  
Old 10-01-2020, 03:40 PM
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Shocked as well! The Saxe-Coburg surname, sure... But Princess of Belgium?! That does surprise me - although I do understand how they may have come to that ruling. I wonder this will be appealed by either Albert himself or Philippe as head of the house? Or that they conclude this is not worth fighting for as the rule of law is rather strict (changing the law to include something about lawful marriages would probably result in endless court cases as well so might not be the preferred option either).

I guess it all comes down to the second article (of the Koninklijk besluit betreffende de verlening van de titel van Prins of Prinses van België dates from 12 NOVEMBER 2015) being interpreted to mean that all Albert's children and grandchildren are princes and princesses of Belgium...

Quote:
Artikel 1. In de openbare en private akten die hen aanbelangen, voeren de Prinsen en de Prinsessen, kinderen en kleinkinderen, geboren uit de nakomelingschap in rechte lijn van de Koning, evenals de Prinsen en de Prinsessen, kinderen en kleinkinderen, geboren uit de nakomelingschap in rechte lijn van de Kroonprins of de Kroonprinses, de titel van Prins of Prinses van België volgend op hun voornaam en voor zover ze die voeren, hun familienaam en hun dynastieke titel, en voor de andere titels die hun rechtens hun ascendentie toekomen. Hun voornaam wordt voorafgegaan door het predicaat Zijne of Hare Koninklijke Hoogheid.

Artikel 2. In de openbare en private akten die hen aanbelangen, voeren de Prinsen en de Prinsessen, kinderen en kleinkinderen, geboren uit de nakomelingschap in rechte lijn van Zijne Majesteit Koning Albert II, de titel van Prins of Prinses van België volgend op hun voornaam en voor zover ze die voeren, hun familienaam en hun dynastieke titel, en voor de andere titels die hun rechtens hun ascendentie toekomen. Hun voornaam wordt voorafgegaan door het predicaat Zijne of Hare Koninklijke Hoogheid.
Source

If this was not what the lawmakers intended they should have made the provision that it only applied to legitimate children and grandchildren resulting from lawful marriages.
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  #31  
Old 10-01-2020, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Yes. While it may seem unsurprising to readers not familiar with Belgian law, it must be underscored that this decision is a major break with the present laws of Belgium. Until now, titles of nobility (1) have been the prerogative of the King and Government, not the courts, and (2) have been transmissible only in legitimate male line, except when a special remainder is stipulated in the patent of creation.

https://diplomatie.belgium.be/en/ser...s/nobility/faq




My question as well. To be consistent with the arguments of Delphine's lawyers, will the court also order a dotation, a palace, and a formal role?

Is this decision open to be appealed by King Philippe and the Government (given that titles have, until now, been under their authority) or by King Albert?

I will wait for the full court ruling to be released before making any comments.
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  #32  
Old 10-01-2020, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Marchesina View Post
I did not expect this. At all. I had always thought that dynastic laws were above any national law.
This is not an issue of dynastic versus national law. As stated by the federal government authority on titles of nobility, the general rule of law is that Belgian titles of nobility are inherited in legitimate male line:

https://diplomatie.belgium.be/en/ser...s/nobility/faq


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
I am not sure if a dotation is likely. The 2014 law states that only the king and the heir will receive a dotation, with a temporary transition arrangement for Astrid and Laurent. As Delphine has nothing to transition from I am not sure how a dotation can be justified.
The justification of Delphine's lawyers for requesting the royal titles was that she deserved equal privileges with her siblings, and that argument is easily applied to their dotations as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cathy50 View Post
I hope her partner and children do not feel neglected and ignored because if what she has been going on for years now and still counting...
I recall her saying her husband and children are supportive of her actions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Michiru-Kaiou View Post
It's at least a first-round victory and maybe, just maybe, this can provide for a precedent and can lead to more illegitimate children leading lawsuits, winning those and, ultimately, forcing politics (hopefully not only in Belgium) to reform.

That's another unfairness and I do think the general exclusion of women is as outrageous as the treatment of illegitimate children, however, this is about a specific case and I think discussing other issues would clog the thread.

best wishes Michiru
Thank you for clarifying, although in my opinion the fact that the court (seemingly) declined to rule on principles of equality and instead chose to grant special treatment to Delphine is relevant to this thread.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
No, why would she? Her half-aunts normally don't join the family either while also being princesses of Belgium.
Her half-aunts have not sued in court for "the same prerogatives, titles, and capacities" as their half-siblings.
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  #33  
Old 10-01-2020, 03:52 PM
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Will she be claiming its unfair Philippe is treated differently to her (And Laurent and Astrid) and using the law to try and sue to be Queen next?

I always believed this wasn't abut titles and money, clearly it was in part at least.
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  #34  
Old 10-01-2020, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Thank you for clarifying, although in my opinion the fact that the court (seemingly) declined to rule on principles of equality and instead chose to grant special treatment to Delphine is relevant to this thread.
Interesting... Will the full court order become available soon? Because from my perspective I can see how they might interpret the KB of 2015 to mean that Delphine and her children (but not her grandchildren!) are entitled to the title prince(ss) of Belgium - but I don't think that would extend to any other rights but of course am open to learn about any laws that might now apply to her situation.

Quote:
Her half-aunts have not sued in court for "the same prerogatives, titles, and capacities" as their half-siblings.
I know, which makes it much more likely that Philippe will NOT invite his half-sister; as I don't see how a judge could order the king to include Delphine in all kinds of royal activities. They might order she receive money from the Belgian government but that doesn't mean that Philippe needs to 'hand her' royal activities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Again, in light of this ruling, I see no reason why Anna Astrid and Maximilian, or for that matter Alexandra and Leopoldo Moncada, should not enjoy the same title and predicate as HRH Princess Delphine of Belgium, HRH Princess Joséphine of Belgium and HRH Prince Oscar of Belgium.
My guess it all comes down to the KB of 2015. The rule about all children and grandchildren are princes and princesses of Belgium is restricted to those of 'the king' and 'the crown prince(ss)' (interpretation seems to be those of the current and future kings and crown prince(sse)s) (art. 1) and to king Albert II's descendants (art. 2) which includes Delphine and her children but not Esmeralda's children (as grandchildren of Leopold for whose descendants other provisions apply) nor Amedeo's children (as great-grandchildren of Albert).

So, I guess your interpretation of the princes and princesses to be equal to the children and grandchildren in the rather confusing KB 2015 was the right one!
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  #35  
Old 10-01-2020, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michiru-Kaiou View Post
I have to say, I am quite happy with this. I always thought this legitimacy thing is incredibly unfair and discriminatory, treating children born out of wedlock like dirt, like some shame that has to be hushed and covered up. Something unworthy of the 21st century. And I really hope this also means Belgium has a new 17th, 18th and 19th in line-of-succession.

Anyway, congratulations for this victory, Your Royal Highness!

best wishes Michiru
y

I agree with you. Every son or daughter of the same father (or mother) should have identical rights. That's how things are in my country. It is disgusting to watch Albert denying the existence of her daughter till the end. And it would be great to see King Philippe receiving his sister in the family as any brother should do.
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  #36  
Old 10-01-2020, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
I guess it all comes down to the second article (of the Koninklijk besluit betreffende de verlening van de titel van Prins of Prinses van België dates from 12 NOVEMBER 2015) being interpreted to mean that all Albert's children and grandchildren are princes and princesses of Belgium...

Quote:
In de openbare en private akten die hen aanbelangen, voeren de Prinsen en de Prinsessen, kinderen en kleinkinderen, geboren uit de nakomelingschap in rechte lijn van de Koning, evenals de Prinsen en de Prinsessen, kinderen en kleinkinderen, geboren uit de nakomelingschap in rechte lijn van de Kroonprins of de Kroonprinses, de titel van Prins of Prinses van België volgend op hun voornaam en voor zover ze die voeren, hun familienaam en hun dynastieke titel, en voor de andere titels die hun rechtens hun ascendentie toekomen. Hun voornaam wordt voorafgegaan door het predicaat Zijne of Hare Koninklijke Hoogheid.
Source

If this was not what the lawmakers intended they should have made the provision that it only applied to children and grandchildren resulting from lawful marriages.

The original intention and traditional interpretation of the decree (which I think you agreed with when it was debated in the Titles thread some time ago) is that princes and princesses who are children or grandchildren of Albert II are princes and princesses of Belgium. It does not apply to non-princes and non-princesses who are children or grandchildren of Albert II.

Translation:
Article 2. In the public and private acts relating to them, the Princes and the Princesses, children and grandchildren, born in direct descendance from His Majesty King Albert II carry the title of Prince or of Princess of Belgium following their forename, and, so far as they carry them, their family name and their dynastic title and ahead of the other titles to which their ancestry gives them the right. Their forename is preceded by the predicate His or Her Royal Highness.


A note for readers unfamiliar with the history of Belgian royal titles: The provision quoted by Somebody was modified from a rule originally written in 1891 (sixty years after Leopold I became King of the Belgians), which created the titles of Prince and Princess of Belgium for the first time.

The intent of the decree was to rule that the royal princes and princesses would be called princes and princesses "of Belgium". The members of the royal family already were princes and princesses.

If the intent of the decree were to rule on which descendants are princes and princesses, then none of the members of the Belgian royal family were princes and princesses between 1831 and 1891 - which would surely come as a surprise to them.


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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I will wait for the full court ruling to be released before making any comments.
Do you know where it would be available? I did not find the previous rulings in this case from the appeals court.
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  #37  
Old 10-01-2020, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
So, I guess your interpretation of the princes and princesses to be equal to the children and grandchildren in the rather confusing KB 2015 was the right one!
I think you are confusing me with Mbruno. I interpreted it in the same way that you did - it is about the additional titles and predicates carried by princes and princesses, not about which descendants are princes and princesses.

Again, with all due respect to those who interpret it in the other way, the logical consequence of that interpretation is that there were no princes and princesses in the royal family before 1891.
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  #38  
Old 10-01-2020, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Reinosa View Post
y

I agree with you. Every son or daughter of the same father (or mother) should have identical rights. That's how things are in my country. It is disgusting to watch Albert denying the existence of her daughter till the end. And it would be great to see King Philippe receiving his sister in the family as any brother should do.
Should? One thing is to have the right to know who your parents, siblings and relatives are. Another is to oblige your father or siblings to do something they clearly don't want to do. Especially when there are no small children involved...
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  #39  
Old 10-01-2020, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Reinosa View Post
y

I agree with you. Every son or daughter of the same father (or mother) should have identical rights. That's how things are in my country. It is disgusting to watch Albert denying the existence of her daughter till the end. And it would be great to see King Philippe receiving his sister in the family as any brother should do.
As someone who comes from a family where there were extramarital affairs that caused a lot of hurt, I can tell you that it is NOT as simple as just receiving her and acting like one big happy family. While Albert's affair was obviously his fault and Delphine is innocent in this situation, there is no hiding the fact that her existence is a result of Albert's betrayal to his marriage vows and his wife's trust. There's a lot of hurt and pain there, and while it would of course be wonderful if they're accepting, from personal experience I can tell you that it is extremely difficult to do, and it must be a horribly awkward situation all around.
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  #40  
Old 10-01-2020, 04:22 PM
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I was quite surprised by this. I'm glad that she's been formally recognised as Albert's daughter, and very sorry that he hasn't had the decency to recognise her himself rather than the courts having to do it, but royal titles pass through the legitimate male line. I'm not saying that that's right, just that it's how it is. Some 16th and 17th century monarchs merrily handed out dukedoms to their illegitimate sons, but not the title of prince or princess. Interesting decision.


Suppose she'd been older than Philippe? What would have happened then?
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