Queen Paola's 80th Birthday

[duke of poliganc]

I wonder why the link refers to the baby as "la princesse Anna Astrid" when Anna Astrid is not a princess of Belgium under the current royal decree of 2015. I suppose the Habsburgs and their followers still consider Anna Astrid a princess in Hungary , Austria and Bohemia, but, in any case, the practice in Austria-Hungary would be to address her as an archduchess, even if that rank is in practice equivalent to a princess.

On the other hand, as Tatiana Maria once remarked here, the actual text of the royal decree seems to imply that the descendants in male line of KIng Léopold I are still considered princes / princesses, though not princes/princesses of Belgium, which is a title reserved now for children and grandchildren of the sovereign and the heir to the throne only and, as a transitional provision, for the children and grandchildren of KIng Albert II in particular. Under that interpretation, Anna Astrid could still be a princess of some sort, though not a princess of Belgium.

It is all very confusing !

PS: There is a forum about titles and styles of the Belgian royal family, isn't there ? Maybe that post could be moved there.

weren't the Habsburg-Lorraine incorporated into Belgium's nobility as HSH Prince/sse de Habsburg-Lorraine.

 

[Shikha Pal]

Lovely photos!. Everyone looks great. Anna Astrid is an adorable little baby!. It would have been nice if Princess Maria Laura attended. I hope they all had a fabulous time!.

I wonder why did they decide to celebrate Queen Paola's birthday early!

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

weren't the Habsburg-Lorraine incorporated into Belgium's nobility as HSH Prince/sse de Habsburg-Lorraine.

Only the two sons of Archduke Carl Ludwig of Austria-Lorraine and Yolande de Broglie: Rudolf and Carl Christian.

These two -and their descendants- are incorporated into the Belgian nobility with the title Prince de Habsbourg-Lorraine. But in general the two brothers are referred with their Austrian titles.

Rudolf married Hélène de Villenfagne de Vogelsanck and has issue.
Carl Christian married Marie-Astrid de Luxembourg, de Nassau, de Bourbon de Parme and has issue.

 

[maria-olivia]

Again out of topic .

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Again out of topic .

Not entirely out of topic because it was a question by a fellow poster about the attendance of "Princess Anna-Astrid" on the birthday party of her great-grandmother Queen Paola.

That caption caused a fellow-poster asking if that was right or wrong? And another fellow poster questioned: aren't the Habsbourg-Lorraines styled as prince/princess in Belgium indeed?

If we can only discuss the birthday cake and the 80-year old, we are ready in five posts.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

[...] Mathilde takes no s**t from anyone and she supports and defends her husband's decisions, which usually go against the interests of the rest of the house.

What kind of decisions has the king made?
We could continue the discussion here: http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f29/future-of-the-belgian-monarchy-12188.html

I wonder why the link refers to the baby as "la princesse Anna Astrid" when Anna Astrid is not a princess of Belgium under the current royal decree of 2015.

The royal director of communications confirmed in communiqués to the yearbook Le Carnet Mondain and to RTL Place Royale that Prince Amedeo's daughter is given the styling "Princess Anna Astrid" by the Palace.
Her Belgian birth certificate bears the title and name of "Her Imperial and Royal Highness Princess Anna Astrid Marie Archduchess of Austria-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)" [emphasis added].

You will find the documents and articles relating to her title - and the titles of the other future grandchildren of Princess Astrid and Prince Laurent - in my previous posts in the thread "Titles of the Belgian royal family", and I agree with continuing the discussion there.

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...elgian-royal-family-38975-10.html#post1982888
http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f29/titles-of-the-belgian-royal-family-38975-9.html#post1920463
http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f29/titles-of-the-belgian-royal-family-38975-9.html#post1954150
http://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...elgian-royal-family-38975-10.html#post1954205

Only Astrid's and Laurent's grandchildren will be affected in terms of not becoming princes/princesses of Belgium, which is pretty fair IMHO. I doubt that is the source of Laurent's and Astrid's resentment towards their brother then.

The coverage in Le Soir implied that Princess Astrid, Prince Lorenz, and Prince Laurent were substantially disappointed or even offended by King Philippe's refusal of the title "Princess of Belgium" and the surname "of Belgium" for their grandchildren.

On the other hand, as Tatiana Maria once remarked here, the actual text of the royal decree seems to imply that the descendants in male line of KIng Léopold I are still considered princes / princesses, though not princes/princesses of Belgium, ...

The Royal Decree (article 4) actually cites "direct" descendants, not "male-line" descendants, of King Léopold I as "Princes and Princesses" who are not "Princes and Princesses of Belgium", but it is unclear whom it implies.
http://www.ejustice.just.fgov.be/cg..._date=2015-11-24&numac=2015021075&caller=list

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Amedeo is no descendant of Rudolf or Carl Christian who are Belgian princes as well, styled as "Prins van Habsburg-Lotharingen / Prince de Habsbourg-Lorraine".

Amedeo is from the branch Este, not the branch Lorraine. His title is Archduke of Austria-Este (hereditary) and Prince of Belgium (no longer hereditary). The whole situation around Archduke Amedeo and Donna Elisabetta was unclear (married with permission or not?) and the same goes for Archduchess Anna-Astrid of Austria-Este: where does her title "princess" come from? My guess: just the usual amateurism by the responsible staff at the Court.

 

[Stefan]

Amedeo is no descendant of Rudolf or Carl Christian who are Belgian princes as well, styled as "Prins van Habsburg-Lotharingen / Prince de Habsbourg-Lorraine".

Amedeo is from the branch Este, not the branch Lorraine. His title is Archduke of Austria-Este (hereditary) and Prince of Belgium (no longer hereditary). The whole situation around Archduke Amedeo and Donna Elisabetta was unclear (married with permission or not?) and the same goes for Archduchess Anna-Astrid of Austria-Este: where does her title "princess" come from? My guess: just the usual amateurism by the responsible staff at the Court.

Actually the full Title of the Habsburg's is Prince/Princess Imperial and Archduke/Archduchess of Austria, Prince of Hungary and Bohmeia so that includes several Princely Titles.

 

[Mbruno]

Actually the full Title of the Habsburg's is Prince/Princess Imperial and Archduke/Archduchess of Austria, Prince of Hungary and Bohmeia so that includes several Princely Titles.

As I said before, I suggest this discussion be moved to the forum on " Titles and Styles of the Belgium Royal Family".

In any case, it is unclear to me if the court refers to Anna Astrid as a princess because she is a pretended princess imperial of Austria and princess royal of Hungary and Bohemia, or because it is implied in the text of the 2015 royal decree as quoted by Tatiana-Maria that all direct descendants of King Leopold I are still princes/princesses , even if they are not princes/ princesses of Belgium. If that is the case, the whole purpose of decree, which was to limit the number of princes/princesses, becomes moot IMHO.

Another relevant issue is that, under the text of the royal decree , clearly only the princes/princesses of Belgium are entitled to the style "Royal Highness" before their given name . When Anna Astrid's birth certificate refers to her then as "Her Imperial and Royal Highness", I suppose that is based on her Austrian titles of pretense, and not on any Belgian title.

 

[maria-olivia]

For Marie Christine daughter of Christian who married Count Rodolphe de Limbourg Stirum.
In the Church of Saint Jacques de Coudenberg , a french journalist spoke about Emperor Charles times ago.
I was too early at the Church and looked at their Chairs.
It was written SAR et I la Comtesse Rodophe de Limburg Stirum and next to her Le comte Rodolphe de Limbourg Stirum

 

[Tatiana Maria]

In any case, it is unclear to me if the court refers to Anna Astrid as a princess because she is a pretended princess imperial of Austria and princess royal of Hungary and Bohemia, or because it is implied in the text of the 2015 royal decree as quoted by Tatiana-Maria that all direct descendants of King Leopold I are still princes/princesses , even if they are not princes/ princesses of Belgium.

It is also unclear to me. However, as I wrote earlier, I cannot ascertain if Article 4 implies that part of the lineage (the children of the princes, for example) or all of the lineage of King Léopold I are princes/princesses even if they are not princes/princesses of Belgium:

Articles 1-3 of the decree deal with the title Prince(ss) of Belgium.
Article 4 states: "The Princes and Princesses, in direct descentfrom His Majesty Leopold of Saxe-Coburg, who are not mentioned in articles 1-3, carry after their first name, and their family name if they carry it, the titles which their ancestry gives them the right to."

If that is the case, the whole purpose of decree, which was to limit the number of princes/princesses, becomes moot IMHO.

If the limitation of the number of princes/princesses had been the purpose, then measures to limit the many princely families in Belgium would have needed to be taken.
The express purpose of the decree was to limit the number of princes and princesses of Belgium particularly:

Considérant qu'il est indiqué de limiter l'accroissement du nombre des porteurs du titre de Prince ou de Princesse de Belgique à travers les branches collatérales de la Famille Royale;

Considering it is apt to limit the growth of the number of the holders of the title of Prince or of Princess of Belgium in the collateral branches of the Royal Family;

where does her title "princess" come from? My guess: just the usual amateurism by the responsible staff at the Court.

Since the title of Princess appears in her Belgian birth certificate, which is completed at a town hall, it cannot merely be amateurism by the court.

 

[maria-olivia]

Even Lea Wolman , Prince Alexandre's wife is now His Royal Highness Princess Alexandre of Belgium.