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  #21  
Old 05-18-2014, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The Belgians have a most peculiar (and in my eyes unlucky) system. The Royal Decree of 2 December 1991 says the following: "[....] the title Prince or Princess of Belgium will be granted to the Princes and Princesses whom will be born by our descendants in direct line [....]"

This means that the title is hereditary to all descendants of King Albert II, in both the male and female lineage. This leads to a staggering 22 Princes/Princesses of Belgium today and this will only increase, causing an inflation of that title. To answer your question: when this Royal Decree is not adapted, children of Archuchess Maria Laura of Austria-Este , Princess of Belgium can become Prince(ss) of Belgium indeed but NOT Archduke (Archduchess) of Austria-Este, since that is only hereditary via the male lineage.

Since Prince Amedeo is getting married this summer, we will see if King Philippe will release a new decree to change things (this should be the case). As you said in ... let's say 15 years ... there may be 30 or even more Princes of Belgium. I read somewhere that King George V reformed the princely title system because of numerous Princes of the United Kingdom existing all around Europe
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  #22  
Old 05-18-2014, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
and the oldest Archduchess Andreas married Hereditary Count Karl Eugen of Neipperg, who will once day succed his fathhr succeed as head of this mediatized House.
Oops, how could I forget Archduchess Andrea, yes you are totally right!
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  #23  
Old 05-18-2014, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Marchesina View Post
Since Prince Amedeo is getting married this summer, we will see if King Philippe will release a new decree to change things (this should be the case). As you said in ... let's say 15 years ... there may be 30 or even more Princes of Belgium. I read somewhere that King George V reformed the princely title system because of numerous Princes of the United Kingdom existing all around Europe
In 2002 in the Netherlands the Royal House Act has been modernized. The thought of the lawmaker: the titles Prince(ss) of the Netherlands and Prince(ss) of Orange-Nassau must express a close bond to the Bearer of the Crown. Since 2002 only the children of a King and of a Heir will get these titles. Special provisions are made in the Act for special cases, like the spouse of the King or the Heir.

Result: only the daughters of Willem-Alexander are Princess of the Netherlands and Princess of Orange-Nassau. The children of his brothers Friso and Constantijn do not have these titles.

The Belgians can follow this example: the title Prince(ss) of Belgium is only for children of a King or a Heir. This means that the children of the younger Princes can have another title, like in the Dutch example.
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  #24  
Old 05-18-2014, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Camberwell View Post
If, for instance, Princess Maria Laura of Belgium grew up and married a commoner, would he get any title from his marriage to her?

I'd be very grateful for anyone who would be kind enough to help me!

Thank you very much.
Strictly speaking, he will not, and neither will the fiancée of her brother Prince Amedeo. By the royal decree of December 2, 1991 (effective December 15, 1991), spouses of Belgian princes(ses) do not bear titles by marriage.

Even so, King Albert II created the spouses of Prince Philippe, Princess Astrid, and Prince Laurent Princes(ses) of Belgium in their own right. It remains to be seen whether King Philippe shall do likewise for Prince Amedeo's fiancée and the future spouses of his siblings.

In the event that Princess Maria Laura chooses to call herself Mrs. XY after marriage, it is unlikely to be appended to her formal title. No other princess of Belgium (by blood) is formally styled in Belgium with her husband's surname or title.
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  #25  
Old 05-18-2014, 03:57 PM
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So if King Phillipe decides not to grant Amadeo's wife a Belgian title she will be Archduchess Amadeo of Austria-Este with no Belgium title?
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  #26  
Old 05-19-2014, 07:35 AM
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Yes. Prince Lorenz has also various tittles , such as Duc de Bar.
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  #27  
Old 12-11-2014, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The Belgians have a most peculiar (and in my eyes unlucky) system. The Royal Decree of 2 December 1991 says the following: "[....] the title Prince or Princess of Belgium will be granted to the Princes and Princesses whom will be born by our descendants in direct line [....]"

This means that the title is hereditary to all descendants of King Albert II, in both the male and female lineage. This leads to a staggering 22 Princes/Princesses of Belgium today and this will only increase, causing an inflation of that title. To answer your question: when this Royal Decree is not adapted, children of Archuchess Maria Laura of Austria-Este , Princess of Belgium can become Prince(ss) of Belgium indeed but NOT Archduke (Archduchess) of Austria-Este, since that is only hereditary via the male lineage.

Sweden seems to have the same problem, though not quite enshrined in law as in Belgium. In any case, I am pretty sure they will eventually limit the hereditary transmission of the title at some point.
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  #28  
Old 05-02-2015, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Sweden seems to have the same problem, though not quite enshrined in law as in Belgium. In any case, I am pretty sure they will eventually limit the hereditary transmission of the title at some point.
As far as I understand the situation in Sweden, it's the monarch who decides what title, if any, a member of the royal family is to have. By the time the children of Madeleine and Carl Philip are old enough to have children of their own it's most likely Victoria who are the monarch and my guess is that it's unlikely that she will create her grandnieces and grandnephews as prince(ess) of Sweden, nor give them any ducal titles. Do remember that Gustav V took away the royal titles from his grandsons when they married commoners.
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  #29  
Old 05-02-2015, 08:30 AM
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By the time the children of Madeleine and Carl Philip are old enough to have children of their own it's most likely Victoria who are the monarch and my guess is that it's unlikely that she will create her grandnieces and grandnephews as prince(ess) of Sweden, nor give them any ducal titles.
-->> And maybe they will be happy to be less visible, out of the limelight. Depends on their upbringing of course, but in Madeleines case I can see this clearly happening.


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Originally Posted by Meraude View Post
.... Do remember that Gustav V took away the royal titles from his grandsons when they married commoners.
-->> Well, these were different times and a different law was in place when it came to marriages.
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  #30  
Old 05-02-2015, 08:37 AM
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If a Belgian princess married an ordinary man…

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Sweden seems to have the same problem, though not quite enshrined in law as in Belgium. In any case, I am pretty sure they will eventually limit the hereditary transmission of the title at some point.


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Originally Posted by Meraude View Post
As far as I understand the situation in Sweden, it's the monarch who decides what title, if any, a member of the royal family is to have. By the time the children of Madeleine and Carl Philip are old enough to have children of their own it's most likely Victoria who are the monarch and my guess is that it's unlikely that she will create her grandnieces and grandnephews as prince(ess) of Sweden, nor give them any ducal titles. Do remember that Gustav V took away the royal titles from his grandsons when they married commoners.


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Originally Posted by Avicenna View Post
-->> And maybe they will be happy to be less visible, out of the limelight. Depends on their upbringing of course, but in Madeleines case I can see this clearly happening.




-->> Well, these were different times and a different law was in place when it came to marriages.

How should I put this without having the post deleted... I'm absolutely sure that if Victoria and Daniel had one or two more children Madeleines children wouldn't have any royal titles.


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  #31  
Old 05-02-2015, 08:42 AM
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How should I put this without having the post deleted... I'm absolutely sure that if Victoria and Daniel had one or two more children Madeleines children wouldn't have any royal titles.


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But Victoria and Daniel can still have more children.
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  #32  
Old 05-02-2015, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Avicenna View Post
Well, these were different times and a different law was in place when it came to marriages.
I meant that the monarch decides about titles within the royal family, even if the princes lost their right in the Swedish succession and their royal titles, Gustav V could have done as his father Oscar II did in 1888 when Gustav V:s younger brother married a commoner, and give the non-hereditary title of prince Bernadotte to his grandsons and given the title princess Bernadotte to their wives.
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  #33  
Old 05-02-2015, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Meraude View Post
I meant that the monarch decides about titles within the royal family, even if the princes lost their right in the Swedish succession and their royal titles, Gustav V could have done as his father Oscar II did in 1888 when Gustav V:s younger brother married a commoner, and give the non-hereditary title of prince Bernadotte to his grandsons and given the title princess Bernadotte to their wives.

Regardless of their titles (or lack thereof), all descendants of King Carl Gustaf will be in line to the throne under Swedish law, no matter how far their generation is from the current king.
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  #34  
Old 05-02-2015, 09:34 AM
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IIRC in order to be in the line of succession they also have to be Lutheran and raised in Sweden. These two conditions can easily help to limit those able to succeed to the Throne in the future.
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  #35  
Old 05-02-2015, 09:40 AM
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IIRC in order to be in the line of succession they also have to be Lutheran and raised in Sweden. These two conditions can easily help to limit those able to succeed to the Throne in the future.
And they need permisoj from the King and goverment fior their marriages.
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  #36  
Old 11-21-2019, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Ish View Post
I would suggest checking out the Wikipedia page on Belgian nobility, which discusses the various titles used in Belgium.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_nobility
If a Belgian Princess marries a commoner, could the gentleman be given a nobility title that has been unused for years?
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  #37  
Old 11-21-2019, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
If a Belgian Princess marries a commoner, could the gentleman be given a nobility title that has been unused for years?
Did you have a specific title in mind? I don't think there is any constitutional impediment, but given that numerous titles such as Prince of Belgium, Prince, or Count are in use and available, there seems little need to revive an unfamiliar title.

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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
The other titles previously used by the Belgians Royal Family were ; Prince & Princess of Liège , Count & Countess of Hainaut Count & Countess of Flanders,the last were abolished by Albert II.
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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
Don't think so as King Albert II. abolished all the Titles used by the Royal Family with the exception of Duke/Duchess of Brabant in 2001 short before the birth of Princess Elisabeth. Reason was that they are referring to either cities or Regions in Flanders or the Wallonie.
Count of Hainaut was actually the only title abolished by King Albert II. The countdom of Flanders became extinct with the death of Prince Charles, Count of Flanders in 1983, while the princedom of Liège merged with the crown on the ascension of Prince Albert, Prince of Liège to the throne as King Albert II in 1993.
https://www.heraldica.org/topics/royalty/royalbelge.htm

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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Even so, King Albert II created the spouses of Prince Philippe, Princess Astrid, and Prince Laurent Princes(ses) of Belgium in their own right. It remains to be seen whether King Philippe shall do likewise for Prince Amedeo's fiancée and the future spouses of his siblings.
The King never granted a legal title to his nephew's wife, but he has allowed her to be titled by courtesy as HRH Princess Amedeo of Belgium and as Princess Elisabetta.

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...ml#post2252368
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  #38  
Old 11-21-2019, 07:26 PM
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Count of Hainaut was actually the only title abolished by King Albert II. The countdom of Flanders became extinct with the death of Prince Charles, Count of Flanders in 1983.
I suppose the county of Flanders still exists in a way as it is part of the titles of the King of Spain, inherited through the Burgundian dukes who unified most of the low countries. The same is the case for the titles Duke of Brabant (in use by the Belgian RF) and Duke of Limburg (from 1815 until 1890 in use by the Dutch RF). The king is also titular count of Hainaut and Namur. The titular counties of Holland and Zeeland were given up in the peace of Westphalia in 1648.

Quote:
Did you have a specific title in mind? I don't think there is any constitutional impediment, but given that numerous titles such as Prince of Belgium, Prince, or Count are in use and available, there seems little need to revive an unfamiliar title.
The king can still raise people into the nobility, which these days is mostly limited to personal titles only. Handing out hereditary titles is rare, I am not sure if King Philippe has even done so.

Prince Lorenz became Prince of Belgium. It remains to be seen if the king will elevate a future husband of Pss Eleonore to the same status. As you say handing out a lower title does not seem to make sense but technically the king can still do that. I would be very surprised if he will.
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