Belgian Royal Coats of Arms & Monograms

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri

The coat of arms of the late Princess Joséphine Charlotte, Grand Duchess consort of Luxembourg combined the coats of Arms of a Belgian Princess with those of the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg.

Coat of arms of HRH Princess Joséphine Charlotte, Grand Duchess consort of Luxembourg

Is that official or Wikipedia-esque?
What is that Order surrounding the Arms? I do not recognize it as any Luxembourgian or Belgian Order.

[An Ard Ri]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Is that official or Wikipedia-esque?
What is that Order surrounding the Arms? I do not recognize it as any Luxembourgian or Belgian Order.

Its a Wikipedia variation of her arms using the Grand Cross of the Order of Isabella the Catholic.

Here's a similar one this time using the Grand Cross of the Order of the Seraphim.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri

Its a Wikipedia variation of her arms using the Grand Cross of the Order of Isabella the Catholic.

Here's a similar one this time using the Grand Cross of the Order of the Seraphim.

That is as bad. It must be a Wikipedia-fairytale. The small Luxembourg Arms have no cordon around, like the Dutch. Just the bare arms bedecked with a crown. See picture, this is the Arms depicted on private correspondence by WA when he was no King yet (click on the pic to XXL to see it in deep goldpainted detail): https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6a/32...b22a3d415c.jpg



It makes no sense to decorate the Arms of a Belgian-born Princess who became a Grand-Duchess of Luxembourg with a Swedish or Spanish cordon.

[JR76]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

That is as bad. It must be a Wikipedia-fairytale. The small Luxembourg Arms have no cordon around, like the Dutch. Just the bare arms bedecked with a crown. See picture, this is the Arms depicted on private correspondence by WA when he was no King yet (click on the pic to XXL to see it in deep detail): https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6a/32...b22a3d415c.jpg



It makes no sense to decorate the Arms of a Belgian-born Princess who became a Grand-Duchess of Luxembourg with a Swedish or Spanish cordon.

They've probably taken the Seraphim coat of arms of the Grand Duchess and posted it as her official coat of arms. Sloppy, but a good example of why we should take everything on Wikipedia with a pinch of salt

[An Ard Ri]

No I don't think they were ever listed as official Coat of Arms just variations on Wikipedia but I agree they do indeed take a bit of artistic liberty with them.

[Duc_et_Pair]

I can see where that Wikipedia illustration came from: it is taken from the plaquette made for Grand-Duchess Joséphine-Charlotte as Dame (Knight) in the Order of the Seraphim.

It is no fantasy Arms but the personal "small arms" of Joséphine-Charlotte, is the one without the Seraphim Order's cordon.


Image: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2a/45...824be726c3.jpg


Oval arms ( it is a female spouse )
Quarter I of Nassau
Quarters II and III of Brabant/Belgium
Quarter IV of Luxembourg
Bedecked with an "open crown" (without velvet) = a grand ducal crown. (The Dutch use the same open crown as Luxembourg (a grand-ducal crown) because apparently King Willem I thougth it was aesthetically more pleasing than a closed crown with red velvet.)


The King's Standard in Belgium, with a five "closed crowns" (= with a red velvet hat)





The King's Standard in the Netherlands, with an "open crown" (no velvet hat) - actually a grand-ducal crown



This is heraldically incorrect for a King and actually there are two existing royal crowns, clearly with a velvet cap. Here is the one used during the Investiture in 2013: http://www.lichtpunt.nl/upload/afbee...ldigd/loo5.jpg But when King Willem I said in 1815: "I want an open crown on my heraldic Arms!" who dared to disagree?

[DavidL]

Hi !

Can anyone identify this very old monogram? this cypher appears on a old lock which was made in XVII or XVII centuries...

Could this be the dual cypher of Archduke Albert of Austria and Infanta Isabella of Spain who were sovereigns of the Spanish Netherlands (now Belgium, Luxembourg,part of France, Southern Netherlands and western Germany) ca. 1600??

thanks a lot!!!

[Mbruno]

Official designs are shown in the royal decree of 2019 for the coats of arms of:

1) The King or the (reignining) Queen of the Belgians.

2) A former King or (reigning) Queen following abdication.

3) The Duke or the (titular) Duchess of Brabant.

4) A Prince or Princess of Belgium.

5) A Prince or Princess of the Royal House who is not a Prince or Princess of Belgium.

Is there any official regulation for the coat of arms of Queen Mathilde as queen consort? As a Princess of Belgium in her own right, I suppose she could use the arms in (4) above, but I don't know if she has been granted different official arms as the wife of the King.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Mbruno

Official designs are shown in the royal decree of 2019 for the coats of arms of:

1) The King or the (reignining) Queen of the Belgians.

2) A former King or (reigning) Queen following abdication.

3) The Duke or the (titular) Duchess of Brabant.

4) A Prince or Princess of Belgium.

5) A Prince or Princess of the Royal House who is not a Prince or Princess of Belgium.

Is there any official regulation for the coat of arms of Queen Mathilde as queen consort?

Not in the decree, or any of the past decrees concerning the heraldry of the royal family.

I am not sure if there is (still) an official regulation granting wives, in general, the right to bear the arms of their husbands.

Originally Posted by Mbruno

As a Princess of Belgium in her own right, I suppose she could use the arms in (4) above, but I don't know if she has been granted different official arms as the wife of the King.

Not on the basis of the decree. Article 4 explicitly applies only to descendants of King Leopold I:

Art. 4.
Les autres Princes ou Princesses de Belgique de la descendance masculine et féminine en ligne directe de Sa Majesté Léopold Ier portent l'écu des armes, en losange pour les Princesses, tel qu'il est décrit à l'article 1er, chargé d'une filière d'or. [...]

(Art. 4. The other Princes or Princesses of Belgium of the male-line and female-line descendance in direct line from His Majesty Leopold I use the shield of the arms, upon a lozenge for the Princesses, in the form in which it is described in Article 1, charged with a gold border. [...])

Note that in Benelux heraldry, a lozenge is the traditional form for the arms of an unmarried woman (in today's circumstances, it is also in use for the arms of women who are armigerous in their own right and not by marriage), whereas an oval is the traditional form for the arms of a married woman.

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

Not in the decree, or any of the past decrees concerning the heraldry of the royal family.

I am not sure if there is (still) an official regulation granting wives, in general, the right to bear the arms of their husbands.




Not on the basis of the decree. Article 4 explicitly applies only to descendants of King Leopold I:

Art. 4.
Les autres Princes ou Princesses de Belgique de la descendance masculine et féminine en ligne directe de Sa Majesté Léopold Ier portent l'écu des armes, en losange pour les Princesses, tel qu'il est décrit à l'article 1er, chargé d'une filière d'or. [...]

(Art. 4. The other Princes or Princesses of Belgium of the male-line and female-line descendance in direct line from His Majesty Leopold I use the shield of the arms, upon a lozenge for the Princesses, in the form in which it is described in Article 1, charged with a gold border. [...])

Note that in Benelux heraldry, a lozenge is the traditional form for the arms of an unmarried woman (in today's circumstances, it is also in use for the arms of women who are armigerous in their own right and not by marriage), whereas an oval is the traditional form for the arms of a married woman.

Thank you. It makes sense that Art 4 should apply only to princesses of the blood.

In traditional heraldry, I guess she should use an oval shield with partition in pale showing the arms of her husband (dexter) and her father's arms (sinister). I am pretty sure her family has an official coat of arms since noble arms are registered in Belgium by the Conseil de Noblesse. But I believe there is no royal decree granting her personal arms as Queen consort.

[Tatiana Maria]

Please excuse my off-topic post, as there is no specific topic for the heraldry of Belgian commoners:

Originally Posted by Mbruno

Traditional Flemish shields used to be drawn with the Spanish design (round bottom) although the Belgian monarchy site now shows an "old French" or "English" design for King Philippe's shield.

Though its jurisdiction does not extend to royal and noble heraldry, the guidance from the Council of Heraldry and Vexillology of the French Community of Belgium states that either the "Spanish" or "old French" shield is acceptable for males, whereas heraldic law does not authorize the "new French" design.

For females, on the other hand, it states that the heraldic tradition is to use a shield in the form of a lozenge or oval.

See Page 7 for illustrations and details.

Another detail I find interesting is that in both the French and Flemish Communities, the heraldic law has been modernized such that coats of arms bestowed on commoners are now granted with a remainder allowing transmission in both male and female line, whereas the arms of the nobility, and probably the arms of the royal family after the third generation, continue to be granted with a remainder to the legitimate male line only.

Originally Posted by Mbruno

In traditional heraldry, I guess she should use an oval shield with partition in pale showing the arms of her husband (dexter) and her father's arms (sinister).

From the examples I have seen, it seems the use of two separate shields is the norm, but otherwise, yes.

[Blog Real]

Dual cypher of King Philippe
and Queen Mathilde of the Belgians

[doro]

Is there a cypher for Princess Elisabeth?

[Duc_et_Pair]

I believe only the King has an official cypher. Queen Mathilde sometimes is attributed to a crowned M, but I do not know how offical.

[Duc_et_Pair]

The Belgians are masters in clumsy mistakes anyway. Last week the Dutch PM was welcomed by the Belgian PM and the Dutch flag was hanged upside down.

And when King Philippe visited the Brussels Public Transport MIVB an emblem depicting wrong arms and a monogram of two Kings ago (Baudouin) was used... :

Picture

The strange thing is that the Belgian royal standard is not used on palaces. Always the tricolore. Also not on funerals or other royal events.

Here you see the standard of King Willem-Alexander on the Royal Palace Amsterdam but the Belgian Bureau Protocol delivered a tricolore and no royal standard to accompany on the rooftop:

Picture

[Marengo]

During a video where PM De Croo tried to show the correct version of the Dutch flag they apparently made another blunder. They used a different flag, the Prinsen flag, where the red is more orange of colour. That flag was used by the Dutch Nazi party and is still in use by the extreme right.

[doro]

The monogram of Princess Elisabeth appears on top left corner of the postage stamp on occasion of her 18th birthday in 2019

[doro]

Royal Monogram of Princess Elisabeth, Duchess of Brabant

[doro]

Monogram of Princess Astrid of Belgium